Paranormal stories

[easysurfer]

I got around to watch the second video from cyber888 about the monks transforming into light. If you step back and think about it, aside from bodies shrinking into tiny sizes before passing away and turning into light, isn't the process not that different than other religions that once we pass away, our spirit still exists and leaves the body? So, if you believe in the other religions, the monks transformations shouldn't seem so far fetched.

Going back to the idea of levitation, one may think that can't be done. But think say if you were on the moon. There it's hard not to go floating about. Once again, may not be so far fetched to believe that they the monks can control themselves to levitate on earth.

I'm open to possibilities, looking at things with an open mind.

 

[Qs Laptop]

I agree with Sagan that life is likely outside of earth. All you need to do is imagine the hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy and multiply that by as many galaxies and the odds that we are unique become vanishingly small.

Or consider another perspective--given the vastness of the universe, I mean it's really, really BIG, ginormous in fact, and given the fact that we on Earth are metaphorically but the relative size of a grain of sand on an elephant's ass, it's mathematically possible to conclude that there is no life in the universe at all. The universe is so incredibly humongous in size and life is so, so rare that the math is essentially the equivalent of dividing by zero, meaning the odds of life elsewhere then earth is infinitely improbable.

(Apologies to Douglas Adams.)

 

[Qs Laptop]

Going back to the idea of levitation, one may think that can't be done. But think say if you were on the moon. There it's hard not to go floating about. Once again, may not be so far fetched to believe that they the monks can control themselves to levitate on earth.

IT IS far-fetched to say that it's possible via mind control to self-levitate just as it's ludicrous to say someone can fly or has x-ray vision or can transmute themselves into a wolf, or perform any other fanciful feat or have any other superpower.

Having premonitions or feelings of deja vu or having your "spidey sense" tingle is one thing, but violating the laws of physics is quite another.

 

[Car-Guy]

IMO, there is life thought-out the "endless" universe. Intelligent life (as we consider it) is probably much rarer but it is still out there. More advanced than us? Probably. Advanced enough to get here and/or contact us? Probably. (If they wanted to)

 

[ERD50]

IMO, there is life thought-out the "endless" universe. Intelligent life (as we consider it) is probably much rarer but it is still out there. More advanced than us? Probably. Advanced enough to get here and/or contact us? Probably. (If they wanted to)

IIRC, Sagan also postulated that other intelligent life might follow a pattern that we might follow, to become extinct in a short time (relative to the time of the existence of the universe). And in that case, the odds of intelligent life existing at the same moment in time as us, and to be aware of each other, also became extremely unlikely.

If that intelligent life visited, and we were still swinging from trees, we wouldn't know about it. And that was a relatively short time ago.

-ERD50

 

[Car-Guy]

IIRC, Sagan also postulated that other intelligent life might follow a pattern that we might follow, to become extinct in a short time (relative to the time of the existence of the universe). And in that case, the odds of intelligent life existing at the same moment in time as us, and to be aware of each other, also became extremely unlikely.

If that intelligent life visited, and we were still swinging from trees, we wouldn't know about it. And that was a relatively short time ago.

-ERD50

Sounds reasonable but I still think "contact" is a bit more probable. (or not so extremely unlikely)

 

[ERD50]

I got around to watch the second video from cyber888 about the monks transforming into light. If you step back and think about it, aside from bodies shrinking into tiny sizes before passing away and turning into light, isn't the process not that different than other religions that once we pass away, our spirit still exists and leaves the body? So, if you believe in the other religions, the monks transformations shouldn't seem so far fetched. ....

But IIRC, at least the mainstream Christian religions I'm familiar with in modern times, there is no observable/testable physical transformation of the body, other than the known/natural causes of decay, etc. And I accept the Catholic teaching of Transubstantiation as being symbolic, though others may take it literally - that's up to them. It's not like the wine every Sunday in Churches across the world takes on the physical characteristics of blood.

So if one believes that a spirit rises from the body, but this spirit has no physical attributes, then there is nothing for science to test. It is just a belief, and people can believe what they want. To me, that makes the process very different from the claims of monks physically shrinking and emitting visible light.

Many people find comfort in these beliefs, and some find it helps guide them to being a better person. I prefer to attempt to achieve that w/o these external beliefs (I think there are plenty of good reasons to be a good person on its own), but to each their own. I try to be respectful of those beliefs, as long as they aren't causing anyone any serious harm, and as long as they don't try too hard to 'convert' me, or insist that my way is 'wrong'.

...

Going back to the idea of levitation, one may think that can't be done. But think say if you were on the moon. There it's hard not to go floating about. Once again, may not be so far fetched to believe that they the monks can control themselves to levitate on earth.

I'm open to possibilities, looking at things with an open mind.

I'm open to the possibility. But IMO, it is far-fetched. We understand the gravitational difference on the Moon. And I'm not aware of anyone ever demonstrating any sort of actual gravity reduction device or 'power'.

If the monks have such a device, I'd sure like to see it, it could really benefit mankind (instead of falling and breaking a hip, let's just levitate down gently!). And if it done with some sort of mental/spiritual 'energy', well, I'd sure like to see that demonstrated under the controlled conditions I described earlier. What fun to absolutely blow the minds of a group of scientists! I'd love to see that, and maybe we could learn from it.

But since that has never happened, yes, I consider it very far-fetched. But that's not the same as saying it is impossible, or closing my mind to the idea, there are things we don't understand, so let's see this one so we can learn. We will never learn or prove/disprove w/o a controlled observation. I can tell you I saw a Bigfoot in an excited voice all day long until the unicorns come home, but there is no reason for you to believe that Bigfoot was really physically there, w/o evidence.

-ERD50

 

[tmm99]

I don't mean to make this about religion, but the majority (at least many) people in the world including people in North America believe in things that are rather supernatural and hard to believe. Just sayin'.

 

[easysurfer]

IT IS far-fetched to say that it's possible via mind control to self-levitate just as it's ludicrous to say someone can fly or has x-ray vision or can transmute themselves into a wolf, or perform any other fanciful feat or have any other superpower.

Having premonitions or feelings of deja vu or having your "spidey sense" tingle is one thing, but violating the laws of physics is quite another.

The laws as we know it today.

Not to put you on the spot (well, actually putting you on the spot). What do you think happens when we die? Do you think we go into nothing or a sense of self, soul that survives physical death?

Isn't it a "law" that we are just made up of energy and energy can't be created or destroyed but only changed. So, no magic but just deductive reasoning. If we are made of energy and we "die" as we know it, than what happened to that energy since it can't be destroyed or created but just transformed?

Going back to the philosophy class, I remember the teacher saying the chemical makeup of a human being isn't really that different than other things but yet we like to thing there is something more to us than just our physical self.

About the monks, aren't some able to walk on burning coal yet not get their feet totally burned? Seems to defy physical laws that we expect.

 

[11522914]

The laws as we know it today.

Not to put you on the spot (well, actually putting you on the spot). What do you think happens when we die? Do you think we go into nothing or a sense of self, soul that survives physical death?

For those interested, this will help answer those questions. [emoji16]

https://www.amazon.com/Seth-Speaks-...ocphy=9010192&hvtargid=pla-436031291953&psc=1

 

[easysurfer]

This will help answer those questions. [emoji16]

https://www.amazon.com/Seth-Speaks-...ocphy=9010192&hvtargid=pla-436031291953&psc=1

I remember my brother having that book upon returning from college. He would read some chapters and then talk about them in fascination.

When my brother was back from college he was a much more philosophical person before later becoming a regular Joe

 

[mystang52]

Going back to the idea of levitation, one may think that can't be done. But think say if you were on the moon. There it's hard not to go floating about. Once again, may not be so far fetched to believe that they the monks can control themselves to levitate on earth.

I'm open to possibilities, looking at things with an open mind.

They can't levitate on the Moon, either. Gravity exists there, just as a smaller force than here on Earth.

 

[easysurfer]

They can't levitate on the Moon, either. Gravity exists there, just as a smaller force than here on Earth.

I beat you to it. Edited my original post to say floating about .

 

[Qs Laptop]

The laws as we know it today.

Yes, the observable, testable, and provable laws of physics. Plus the theoretical mathematical models that have been proposed and calculated but not proved by direct observation. I feel certain that levitation by mind control is not going to be possible under any circumstances now or in the future.

Not to put you on the spot (well, actually putting you on the spot). What do you think happens when we die? Do you think we go into nothing or a sense of self, soul that survives physical death?

As a Christian, I take the traditional Christian view that there is a soul that survives physical death. Not sure how deeply into this subject the rules of ER.Com will allow this discussion so I'll leave it at that.

Isn't it a "law" that we are just made up of energy and energy can't be created or destroyed but only changed. So, no magic but just deductive reasoning. If we are made of energy and we "die" as we know it, than what happened to that energy since it can't be destroyed or created but just transformed?

Scientifically speaking, I don't know what happens to the soul. Theologically speaking, I take the traditional Christian viewpoint that our souls go to either a place of comfort and in the presence of God or in a place of suffering and separated from God.

And speaking of energy that can't be created or destroyed, please explain where these monks get the energy to lift the mass of their bodies from the bonds of gravity?

About the monks, aren't some able to walk on burning coal yet not get their feet totally burned? Seems to defy physical laws that we expect.

Not mystical in the least simply a "trick" which combines toughened soles of the feet with quickly walking on hot coals that have a healthy layer of ash built up on them.

 

[Qs Laptop]

For those interested, this will help answer those questions. [emoji16]

https://www.amazon.com/Seth-Speaks-...ocphy=9010192&hvtargid=pla-436031291953&psc=1

I don't know what this book is about, but a quick glance it looks like the usual new-agey clap-trap.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Here's an example of an experience I had just yesterday that is an extreme coincidence but not something that rises to the level of paranormal.

I went to a minor league ballgame last night. Before I went I trawled through my extensive collection of baseball themed shirts and tee shirts. I selected a more recent acquisition--a Arizona Diamondbacks hawaiian shirt that my son sent me from Arizona for Father's day. It was a ballpark giveaway at the Diamondbacks game on Father's Day.

As I was putting it on I mused to myself, "I wonder if anyone at tonight's game will recognize this shirt?"

A couple of hours later I'm standing in line at the concession stand when this guy in the line next to me says, "I like your shirt."

"Are you a Diamondbacks fan?", I asked him.

"Yes, I live in Tucson. You know they gave away those shirts for Father Day this year," he said.

"I know, my son sent it to me."

Not mystical, not paranormal. It's remarkable only because I wondered if someone would recognize my shirt. If I had not had that thought prior to leaving for the game I wouldn't be typing this. And yes, out of a crowd of 6,000+ people I happened to be standing next to at least one person in that crowd that knew the origin of the shirt, and furthermore, made a comment about it.

 

[easysurfer]

QS Laptop,

Thanks for answering the question where I put you on the spot.

So you look at things both from a scientific mind and also from theology. Don't think kind of conflict? Seems to me, one of them would me more true than the other.

As you say, as a Christian, you take the traditional Christian view that there is a soul that survives physical death. Yet at the same time, the scientific view in you says there's not such a thing as ghosts and spirits? I always thought that if you believed in the traditional Christian view, was a given that you also believe is the bad guys like the existence of evil forces like satan.

I've changed my view over time. For me, a fundamental question I ask myself is are we humans with spiritual experiences or spiritual beings with human experiences? View not due to a nuns in school saying better pray to the almighty or else burn in the heat, but because of science. Like that question about if we are energy and energy can't be destroyed or created, then what happens when we physically die? I can't say for sure, but maybe death is an illusion.


p.s. The part about energy not created/destroyed had nothing to do about the monks. Different points. But for those who are interested on the monk topic, after some googling, I see there's interesting stuff out there. Look up Father Francis Tiso and you can find his account.

 

[Qs Laptop]

QS Laptop,

Thanks for answering the question where I put you on the spot.

So you look at things both from a scientific mind and also from theology. Don't think kind of conflict? Seems to me, one of them would me more true than the other.

One is more true than the other? I don't see the conflict. Science seeks to explain things through natural laws, based on observation and experimentation. Theology seeks to explain the nature of God and religious beliefs. Yes, there can be some tension between the two where the subject matter overlaps, i.e. between creation and abiogenesis.

The great majority of Western scientists during the age of discovery, i.e. the Renaissance and probably up until the mid 1800's or so were Christians.

As you say, as a Christian, you take the traditional Christian view that there is a soul that survives physical death. Yet at the same time, the scientific view in you says there's not such a thing as ghosts and spirits?

I believe people do have souls. But when people die these souls are taken away from the body and to a different, non-physical place (as we know it.) They are not ghosts and spirits that linger around "haunting" places or spirits that "are stuck here on earth waiting to pass onto the next plane of existence."

I always thought that if you believed in the traditional Christian view, was a given that you also believe is the bad guys like the existence of evil forces like satan.

Since I believe the Bible, I do believe there is an actual entity that is called Satan. However, I don't think he's a guy with horns and a pointy tail and carries a pitchfork.

 

[ERD50]

- About the monks, aren't some able to walk on burning coal yet not get their feet totally burned? Seems to defy physical laws that we expect.

Not mystical in the least simply a "trick" which combines toughened soles of the feet with quickly walking on hot coals that have a healthy layer of ash built up on them.

Exactly. That doesn't defy the laws of physics in any way at all. If you research it, I think you'll find that for longer walks, they also walk across a damp surface first, grass with dew on it, or some such.

If they hit a hot spot, the water turns to steam creating an insulating layer. The amount of steam, and time keep them from getting burnt.

In fact, physics explains how they do it, as I would (and you should too) expect. A search brings up explanations:

https://sites.pitt.edu/~dwilley/Fire/FireTxt/fire.html

You could even dip your hand in molten lead, with just a bit of moisture to protect you.

You really need to be a bit more skeptical. I bet you can search and find examples of 'non-believer' fire walkers who did not draw on mystical powers, they just did it, because of... SCIENCE!

update: Here's one!

Of course, any youtube video could be faked, right? OTOH, I bet most of us have snuffed out a candle between our fingers with no pain - not really much different.

I'll add preemptively, just because something can be explained with physics, that doesn't mean someone didn't do it through some mystical power as well. But again, lets see it done under controlled circumstances.

-ERD50

 

[easysurfer]

One is more true than the other? I don't see the conflict. Science seeks to explain things through natural laws, based on observation and experimentation. Theology seeks to explain the nature of God and religious beliefs. Yes, there can be some tension between the two where the subject matter overlaps, i.e. between creation and abiogenesis.

The great majority of Western scientists during the age of discovery, i.e. the Renaissance and probably up until the mid 1800's or so were Christians.



I believe people do have souls. But when people die these souls are taken away from the body and to a different, non-physical place (as we know it.) They are not ghosts and spirits that linger around "haunting" places or spirits that "are stuck here on earth waiting to pass onto the next plane of existence."




Since I believe the Bible, I do believe there is an actual entity that is called Satan. However, I don't think he's a guy with horns and a pointy tail and carries a pitchfork.

Thanks for the clarifications. Actually, in some ways we may have some beliefs in common. I've thought of from a theology perspective, describing creation but from a scientific side describing the big bang are explaining the same thing. Just depends on way of explaining.

I've come to believe more than not that when we die, there is a soul or self that still exists. That we are spiritual beings with a human experience instead of the other way around. As far as what happens to the soul and where they end up (another plane, linger around), in my mind, inconclusive. I do believe if death is an illusion, well pretty much all bets are off as what might be considered impossible was just possible.

 

[Qs Laptop]

I'll add preemptively, just because something can be explained with physics, that doesn't mean someone didn't do it through some mystical power as well.
-ERD50

That is certainly an interesting take.

 

[easysurfer]

Wait, now we are talking stuff like witchcraft, curses and voodoo?

 

[ERD50]

... Isn't it a "law" that we are just made up of energy and energy can't be created or destroyed but only changed. So, no magic but just deductive reasoning. If we are made of energy and we "die" as we know it, than what happened to that energy since it can't be destroyed or created but just transformed? ... .

Flawed reasoning though. We are made up of matter. Matter can be converted to energy (the old e = mc^2), but it doesn't happen when someone dies, or a tree dies, or a pound of lead just sits there for thousands of years. The matter does what matter will do, decay, get eaten and transformed into something by that animal/plant, get burned etc. If it is stable, and not acted upon by something, it just sits there.

There is no mystical 'energy' in our bodies that needs to be explained. Once we die, the metabolic processes stop, and we no longer convert food/fuel into heat or work. That's all there is (outside of religious/spiritual non-physics-world beliefs).

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I'll add preemptively, just because something can be explained with physics, that doesn't mean someone didn't do it through some mystical power as well.
-ERD50

That is certainly an interesting take.

Well, I'm trying to stay open-minded, and it is a possibility.

I was reminded by that of a Penn and Teller "Fool Us" episode. The magician did some things that would have been fairly obvious to Penn & Teller that the trick was done this certain, well-established way. So Penn & Teller said (well, Penn said, Teller nodded! ), you used the old 'Cardigan Sweater Release' (or whatever)!

Ahhh, but they were 'fooled' - the magician did it a different way, but since the more obvious one was thrown in as a red-herring, and caught, Penn & Teller didn't look further, they thought they had their answer. I think that's a bit of a cheat, but I guess no rules were broken, so they got it.

Now, this doesn't invalidate anything - just because a scientist can demonstrate a physics-world way to do something, the 'mystic' would need to show they didn't use that method, and do it under controlled circumstances. Just like the Penn & Teller show, the magician has to demonstrate/explain the method they use to the producers, so the magician can't just say "wrong, I fooled you!". So let's see the monk levitate w/o wires, supports, etc.

-ERD50

 

[Qs Laptop]

Wait, now we are talking stuff like witchcraft, curses and voodoo?

I'm not seeing that stuff being discussed. What are you referring to?