Dave Ramsey rips the 4% rule again today.

Most people who are retiring in their 60's can go higher than 4%. Most people on this forum will die millionaires due to being too conservative. If you want to leave a bunch of money to other people then that is fine but I personally would not want to work longer than needed then die without spending the money I worked so hard for. YMMV

This is my view as well, though I certainly understand that many people want a healthy margin for error, especially in terms of unpredictable LTC costs at the end.

I view the degree of appropriate conservatism vs aggressiveness on WD rate as very much related to:

Age - FIRE at 45 vs FIRE at 62 - seems obvious
Stability of income sources - pension, SS, rentals that could act much like fixed income investments allowing for higher risk on the portfolio
Family/medical history - how long you think you're gonna live, risk of disability, prolonged LTC expenses
Family needs - Would make a difference to me if I'm planning only for myself or if I feel responsible for spouse/kids/others likely to survive me
Proportion of budget covered by stable income sources - As someone pointed out, for the typical Dave Ramsey fan, social security will probably constitute the majority of their retirement support, so higher risk on nest egg could be warranted
Flexibility of budget - If most expenses are fixed then more conservatism warranted, if plenty of fluff, then ability to cut way back in bad years allows for more aggressiveness.
Other Non-Portfolio Assets such as home - Yes, you need a place to live, but if you'll be sitting on a ton of home equity (or other valuable r.e.) it's still a potential safety valve that can be monetized in a pinch (ex. reverse mortgage)

In my own case, I think I can go up to 6% and be ok, but I wouldbe retiring in my early 60's, would have an extremely flexible budget, and would have other safety valves in terms of income, non-portfolio assets, home equity, etc.

EDIT:

Further to the above points, if you simply took the approach of no inflation increases in down market years, the safe WD rate (95% success, 30 years, balanced AA) goes from 4.0% to 5.9%.
 
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I think Dave Ramsey gives great advice!

Bengen, who is the originator of the 4% rule originally determined it to be 4.15, then rounded it to 4. Now he has updated that to 4.75 if you have heard him recently. And he has said it can be higher too.

4% is very conservative and I think it is reasonable to withdraw more.

It's been years since I listened to Ramsey but he used to say bonds were a waste and you should be 100% in equities. Has Bengen also revised his advice to not only withdraw more but be 100% in stock mutual funds?
 
You are probably correct Re: the bold above, and I am sure DW and fall into that group. But for some of us, the work was not so bad, the compensation was good, and a few more years working meant we will (likely) never have to worry even if we both need LTC. There are sufficient funds.

Not every one can get to this point, so we are thankful.

And we have a DS and DDIL who can benefit from whatever we leave, so we don't feel like we "wasted" any of that time or money.

Just my 2 cents.


I think of a stash bigger than I need like a pilot thinks of altitude. Lots of altitude gives a pilot more options if that fan ever quits. YMMV
 
I think of a stash bigger than I need like a pilot thinks of altitude. Lots of altitude gives a pilot more options if that fan ever quits. YMMV

I agree on the bigger stash - but have approached more from the work a bit longer to achieve that higher altitude. Honestly, much as I look forward to the big R, I am going to really miss a lot of positive things about work (other than the paycheck). Deciding where that inflection point between work vs retire exists is such an individual thing (though not always within our control).
 
I agree on the bigger stash - but have approached more from the work a bit longer to achieve that higher altitude. Honestly, much as I look forward to the big R, I am going to really miss a lot of positive things about work (other than the paycheck). Deciding where that inflection point between work vs retire exists is such an individual thing (though not always within our control).


I hear you. I still recall actually enjoying my w*rk - until I didn't. Fortunately, I had the "altitude" to simply bail out by the tine I didn't enjoy it. It's a good feeling. You'll love that too.:cool:
 
Most people who are retiring in their 60's can go higher than 4%. Most people on this forum will die millionaires due to being too conservative. If you want to leave a bunch of money to other people then that is fine but I personally would not want to work longer than needed then die without spending the money I worked so hard for. YMMV

This can only be known in retrospect.

If someone retired in Jan 2000 with $1M invested 100% US Stock Index and withdrew 4.6%, they would have run out of money in Dec 2022. TMDV. (Those that followed the Ramsey 7% would have gone bust in 2011)

Even 4% would have been very hard to stick with for this cohort. At the end of 2008, their portfolio would have been down to $404K and their 2009 withdrawal would have been $50K. Who could stick with that?

When you retire, your plan with either succeed or fail, it's binary. The fact that 95% of people will succeed is of no comfort if you go bust in your 80's.

The only way to minimize failure is to save more and spend less. Of course, this means that looking back you will, in the vast majority of cases, have saved too much but this could not have be known ex ante.
 
This can only be known in retrospect.

If someone retired in Jan 2000 with $1M invested 100% US Stock Index and withdrew 4.6%, they would have run out of money in Dec 2022. TMDV. (Those that followed the Ramsey 7% would have gone bust in 2011)

Even 4% would have been very hard to stick with for this cohort. At the end of 2008, their portfolio would have been down to $404K and their 2009 withdrawal would have been $50K. Who could stick with that?

When you retire, your plan with either succeed or fail, it's binary. The fact that 95% of people will succeed is of no comfort if you go bust in your 80's.

The only way to minimize failure is to save more and spend less. Of course, this means that looking back you will, in the vast majority of cases, have saved too much but this could not have be known ex ante.

I ran my own hypothetical numbers, pretending I retired on 12/31/1999, and using the actual rates of return I had gotten over the years. And also using the official inflation rate numbers I'd found online over the years. To keep it simple, I used $1M as a starting point, and $30K withdrawal for the 3%, $40K for the 4% etc.

Well, at 4%, that $1M would be whittled down to $50,234 as of 12/31/2022. Inflation would have brought that $40K back at the beginning to $70,333. So, pretending linear spending (not realistic, I know) I would be running out of money roughly 8.57 months into this year. Which would be, roughly, this Sunday!

I always had a feeling that the end of 1999 (or 1/1/2000) would end up being one of the "failure" cycles for a lot of people. There was the one-two punch of retiring right into a recession, and not enough recovery time before the second recession came around.

In my case, my portfolio went down each year in 2000/2001/2002. In my hypothetical calculation, on 12/31/2002, I would be at $431,617, but forecast to spend $43,030 for 2003. So that initial 4% withdrawal rate has now skewed to 10%.

2003-2007 were all great years, and by 12/31/07, I would have been at $641,807, with $49,974 set to withdraw for 2008. So my withdrawal rate has eased a bit to 7.8%, but still kind of high.

Well, 2008 knocked me down by about 41%. 2009 brought me up 40%, but as we all know, losing X% one year and then gaining X% the next does not make you whole again. And, having to withdraw at the bottom of the market, really hurt.

Now, I know my accounting is rather sloppy and simple. It just takes the inflation rate from the previous year, multiplies last year's withdrawal by that amount, and then assumes I'll take the new amount out on the first day of the new year. But realistically, I wouldn't have done that. Most likely, I would have set money aside as I needed it, in smaller increments, throughout the year.

For instance, my formula assumes I have $349,182 on 12/31/2008, and that I'll withdraw $50,024 on 1/1/2009 to live off of. At worst, I probably would have pulled out 1/12th of that in January, 1/12 in Feb, etc.

Still, I guess even my simplistic, flawed calculations show the resilience of the 4% rule. My scenario has it lasting 23 years, 8 months, and 17 days! It would have failed me personally if I had done it, because I was only 29 on 12/31/1999. But for someone later in life, about to go on SS, it would probably succeed.

And, cutting back to a 3% initial withdrawal rate, starting with $1M on 12/31/1999, and assuming "official" inflation rates, and my actual rates of return, on 12/31/2022, I would have been at $793,047. That $30K on 1/1/2000 would be inflated to $52,750 for my 2023 withdrawal. So, I'd say 3% definitely has a good chance of making it to 30 years, and beyond!

One thing interesting though, about using 3%. At no point in the spreadsheet, did the asset value ever get back above its starting point. In fact, it only broke $1M once, for 12/31/2021, where it got to $1,047,308. But $1M in 2021 was worth a lot less in real dollars than $1M in 1999. So yeah, that particular cycle (12/31/99 or 1/1/00 or whatever you want to call it) is definitely a tough one!
 
This can only be known in retrospect.

If someone retired in Jan 2000 with $1M invested 100% US Stock Index and withdrew 4.6%, they would have run out of money in Dec 2022. TMDV. (Those that followed the Ramsey 7% would have gone bust in 2011)

Even 4% would have been very hard to stick with for this cohort. At the end of 2008, their portfolio would have been down to $404K and their 2009 withdrawal would have been $50K. Who could stick with that?

When you retire, your plan with either succeed or fail, it's binary. The fact that 95% of people will succeed is of no comfort if you go bust in your 80's.

The only way to minimize failure is to save more and spend less. Of course, this means that looking back you will, in the vast majority of cases, have saved too much but this could not have be known ex ante.

Not questioning your math (I'm not smart enough to do that), just saying that everyone has to take dozens of different things into consideration, including their own risk tolerance and what "failure" would equate to. For example, if starting with a $5M portfolio, an "aggressive" 6% initial WD equals $300K, before even accounting for any potential pension/SS income. "Failure" would more than likely equal having to cut back to a "middle class lifestyle". I think I could live with that risk.
 
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YES! I see this "reasoning" a lot. Its especially prevalent in the years after a downturn. If I lost 25% last year and I'm up 25% this YTD I am NOT back where I started.

As others have said, Dave has helpful "baby steps" tactics for people who are struggling with debt and can't separate "wants" from "needs". His rules don't apply too everyone.

This is why it's important to use dollars, not percent.
Lose $25 on your ETF share price and then get $25 back and you're fully restored...
 
This is my number one rule about money - it is always better to have money and not need it than to need money and not have it. If there is a pile left when I go, it still will have served its purpose even though it was not spent.

A big +1 to that. The comfort that an ample cushion provides is well worth the price, IMO.
 
I ran my own hypothetical numbers, pretending I retired on 12/31/1999, and using the actual rates of return I had gotten over the years. And also using the official inflation rate numbers I'd found online over the years. To keep it simple, I used $1M as a starting point, and $30K withdrawal for the 3%, $40K for the 4% etc.

Well, at 4%, that $1M would be whittled down to $50,234 as of 12/31/2022. Inflation would have brought that $40K back at the beginning to $70,333. So, pretending linear spending (not realistic, I know) I would be running out of money roughly 8.57 months into this year. Which would be, roughly, this Sunday!

I always had a feeling that the end of 1999 (or 1/1/2000) would end up being one of the "failure" cycles for a lot of people. There was the one-two punch of retiring right into a recession, and not enough recovery time before the second recession came around.

In my case, my portfolio went down each year in 2000/2001/2002. In my hypothetical calculation, on 12/31/2002, I would be at $431,617, but forecast to spend $43,030 for 2003. So that initial 4% withdrawal rate has now skewed to 10%.

2003-2007 were all great years, and by 12/31/07, I would have been at $641,807, with $49,974 set to withdraw for 2008. So my withdrawal rate has eased a bit to 7.8%, but still kind of high.

Well, 2008 knocked me down by about 41%. 2009 brought me up 40%, but as we all know, losing X% one year and then gaining X% the next does not make you whole again. And, having to withdraw at the bottom of the market, really hurt.

Now, I know my accounting is rather sloppy and simple. It just takes the inflation rate from the previous year, multiplies last year's withdrawal by that amount, and then assumes I'll take the new amount out on the first day of the new year. But realistically, I wouldn't have done that. Most likely, I would have set money aside as I needed it, in smaller increments, throughout the year.

For instance, my formula assumes I have $349,182 on 12/31/2008, and that I'll withdraw $50,024 on 1/1/2009 to live off of. At worst, I probably would have pulled out 1/12th of that in January, 1/12 in Feb, etc.

Still, I guess even my simplistic, flawed calculations show the resilience of the 4% rule. My scenario has it lasting 23 years, 8 months, and 17 days! It would have failed me personally if I had done it, because I was only 29 on 12/31/1999. But for someone later in life, about to go on SS, it would probably succeed.

And, cutting back to a 3% initial withdrawal rate, starting with $1M on 12/31/1999, and assuming "official" inflation rates, and my actual rates of return, on 12/31/2022, I would have been at $793,047. That $30K on 1/1/2000 would be inflated to $52,750 for my 2023 withdrawal. So, I'd say 3% definitely has a good chance of making it to 30 years, and beyond!

One thing interesting though, about using 3%. At no point in the spreadsheet, did the asset value ever get back above its starting point. In fact, it only broke $1M once, for 12/31/2021, where it got to $1,047,308. But $1M in 2021 was worth a lot less in real dollars than $1M in 1999. So yeah, that particular cycle (12/31/99 or 1/1/00 or whatever you want to call it) is definitely a tough one!


Andre1969 thanks for this treatise on the 4% rule. It's very illustrative of the "rule's" robustness. Those expecting 7% to w*rk aren't thinking it through or are just assuming folks would adjust when times are tough. Aloha
 
This is my view as well, though I certainly understand that many people want a healthy margin for error, especially in terms of unpredictable LTC costs at the end.

I view the degree of appropriate conservatism vs aggressiveness on WD rate as very much related to:

Age - FIRE at 45 vs FIRE at 62 - seems obvious
Stability of income sources - pension, SS, rentals that could act much like fixed income investments allowing for higher risk on the portfolio
Family/medical history - how long you think you're gonna live, risk of disability, prolonged LTC expenses
Family needs - Would make a difference to me if I'm planning only for myself or if I feel responsible for spouse/kids/others likely to survive me
Proportion of budget covered by stable income sources - As someone pointed out, for the typical Dave Ramsey fan, social security will probably constitute the majority of their retirement support, so higher risk on nest egg could be warranted
Flexibility of budget - If most expenses are fixed then more conservatism warranted, if plenty of fluff, then ability to cut way back in bad years allows for more aggressiveness.
Other Non-Portfolio Assets such as home - Yes, you need a place to live, but if you'll be sitting on a ton of home equity (or other valuable r.e.) it's still a potential safety valve that can be monetized in a pinch (ex. reverse mortgage)

In my own case, I think I can go up to 6% and be ok, but I would be retiring in my early 60's, would have an extremely flexible budget, and would have other safety valves in terms of income, non-portfolio assets, home equity, etc.

EDIT:

Further to the above points, if you simply took the approach of no inflation increases in down market years, the safe WD rate (95% success, 30 years, balanced AA) goes from 4.0% to 5.9%.


Absolutely agree. DW and I have our retirement budget set up to decrease our spend from our investments when we start taking SS. But we also have at least 4 years savings ( in CD's and MM accounts) that will be our income that we can use if the market has a significant downturn, where we can draw from that rather than "selling low" and killing our investments. If the market is down for more than 6 years ... yeah that would require a redo of our budget/spending. But we have quite a bit of cushion in our spending plan.
 
I investigated the 4% rule in depth. I posted about it in a blog but took down the blog for privacy reasons. Some of the interesting things I found:

1. Assumptions are everything - what are the assumptions on inflation, projected stock returns, projected bond returns, real rates, asset allocation, etc.

2. Historical data is helpful, somewhat - a lot of people run their portfolio through Firecalc or other tools. I've tried every calculator out there, many several times. Historical stock returns have been very good. Inflation has been low. There have only been 3 or 4 periods where equities performed really poorly for extended periods. The real question is what happens in the future. The calculators can give a false sense of security.

3. Future assumptions - we could see inflation much higher, real returns bouncing around, stock returns lower, etc. Brokerages are forecasting equity returns as low as 5% and as high as 11%. The current Shiller index is pretty high. There is a lot of uncertainty about the next 30 years.

4. My scenarios - I ran worst case scenarios over 30 years with inflation at 4% and 3% volatility and stock returns as low as 7%. I also looked at various asset allocation models.

As EarlyRetirementNow and others have found, you can run out of money by spending 4%, depending upon the above. What's really critical is whether you can get your spending down below 3% if you had to for a few years to give stocks some time to hopefully recover. But, those few years could extend to 10 or more.

On the other side, when inflation isn't bad, real returns are holding, and stocks are yielding decent returns (8%+), etc. there is room to spend well above 4%.
 
This is my number one rule about money - it is always better to have money and not need it than to need money and not have it. If there is a pile left when I go, it still will have served its purpose even though it was not spent.

+1. Die with $7MM or be eating cat food with no options at 91 years old. Your choice.

Always interesting however that just a few percent either way could make the difference.
 
What's really critical is whether you can get your spending down below 3% if you had to for a few years to give stocks some time to hopefully recover. But, those few years could extend to 10 or more.

I agree. I think the people who "lost all their retirement funds" in a bear market weren't in a position to reduce their withdrawals and ended up selling their investments at distress-sale prices. Someone here mentioned a more conservative method- 30% of the 4% method value and 70% of 4% of the balance at the beginning of the year. I use 3.5% instead of 4% and I always stay below the lower of the two (the straight 4% and the alternative). By y calculations I've taken out $50,000-$60,000 less than I could have in total since retiring 9 years ago. Good to have a safety margin.
 
It's been years since I listened to Ramsey but he used to say bonds were a waste and you should be 100% in equities. Has Bengen also revised his advice to not only withdraw more but be 100% in stock mutual funds?

No, he’s gone in the other direction after too many people sold equities at the bottom in 2008. They were too scared to ever get back in. So he advises having at least 20x expenses in fixed income before investing retirement money in equities.
 
So he advises having at least 20x expenses in fixed income before investing retirement money in equities.


The only people that could do that would be those with multi 7 figure portfolios in most cases.
 
4% is a minimum...but it usually works out the average for most rolling 30-year periods of "full retirement" is higher.

And in that worst case:

A 1965 retiree saw annual inflation steadily increase from under 2% the year they retired to double-digits over the entire first half of their 30-year retirement.

Plus a nearly 50% drop in the DJIA from 1973-74.

I'm sure anyone in the above circumstances would have reined in spending & survived.
 
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I agree and think there is a big blind spot related to Social Security. The 4% rule assumes you are living 100% off your portfolio. Yet most Americans have Social Security (or a government pension instead). Using FIRECalc and entering your SS, you will see that early retirees can spend greater than 4% prior to collecting SS. Enter your SS estimate and use the Investigate tab and solve for spending level. In my case it is something like 4.5% prior to SS, which becomes 3.5% or less after SS. It's not 11%, but it is higher than the 4% rule which ignores other income.



Second is that Dave mostly speaks middle income and lower income people. A lot of folks don't realize that SS is extremely progressive. Study the "bend points" to understand why. It replaces a large portion of lower and even middle income worker's income. So using a "rule" that ignores SS for that demographic is ultra conservative and probably just wrong.



So yea, Ramsey's advice is over-simplified and not too useful for most early-retirement.org members. But I have people in my extended family that definitely could use his program.
Yes. Fact is Ramsey's advice is valuable to most Americans. Especially those with consumer debt living paycheck to paycheck which is, well, most Americans.

It does not translate well for folks who have taken those baby steps long ago and since learned to walk run and spring.

But that does not diminish his value for most folks, in my view.
 
4% is very conservative and I think it is reasonable to withdraw more.

Yes it is conservative. People use it and then they ALSO agonize over SORR, which is already addressed by the 4% rule!

Conservative. Yes. But like Gumby said, better to have and not need...
 
Yes. Fact is Ramsey's advice is valuable to most Americans. Especially those with consumer debt living paycheck to paycheck which is, well, most Americans.

It does not translate well for folks who have taken those baby steps long ago and since learned to walk run and spring.

But that does not diminish his value for most folks, in my view.

Agree 100% but will add his investment advice is questionable at best and downright misleading in some cases.
 
I almost posted a comment on that Ramsey Video, saying he needs to educate himself on the 4% rule, but thought twice about it. I have a feeling most of the people who watch that stuff would defend him to the end like he's Jim Jones or something, and I'd probably just open myself up to a lot of trolling and whining.
 
I am a general fan of DR. His communication programs, especially podcasts, were inspirational in helping us change our trajectory.

However, let’s not disparage fans of DR.

In investments, I like the idea that he advisers listeners to be taught and learn about investments - and he pushed buy & hold.

The rest of his investment advice - from AA to learning mostly from endorsed (and therefore paid to him) providers - not such a fan.

I think / hope (?) most listeners are selective in what they follow. Just as I hope most Americans are selective in which political party /message is accurate. Just as most “news channels” need to be filtered and cross checked - albeit mainstream tv, radio, newspaper, internet, etc.

All in all, IMO he helps his audience learn, be inspired and change their trajectory to the better.
 
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