Inspirational video for Obama

[chinaco]

For the Dems. It is probably a matter of electability. Hillary is much more likely to get the independent vote. Obama's strong showing is in part due to the {majority} of the minority vote going to Obama.

Each Dem that votes for Obama has the net effect of causing some independent to vote for McCain.

If Obama get the Dem nomination: Once the two parties square off in the general election... People will really begin to inspect each individual. Many will have second thoughts about Obama.

Obama is too liberal (read socialist)! Plus, why vote for an unknown? Who cares what he says. Words are easy. They all make outrageous pledges. A track record is important. It is a record of actions.

None of the candidates are exactly what I want. They all fall short on a number of issues.

On Iraq. McCain will pull out of Iraq once it is stable. Matter of fact that is what they will all do including Hillary. We will have a presence there for a while. Otherwise we will be back in there trying to sort out the mess again.

My fear about Obama is a bunch of new social programs. Look at his poverty page! This may sound a little cold hearted. But I believe in self-reliance. This is not a third-world country. Most people in this country have opportunity to help themselves. We have enough social programs to fix the poor. At some point, they have to help themselves. It is pretty simple "TRY".

Yes there are some that fall through the cracks. That will happen no matter how much money we throw at it.

I view medicare and SS differently. These are programs that we working people have paid into for our entire working lives. It is not an entitlement. Rather it is a pension and medical insurance program that we paid for!

 

[Gumby]

For the Dems. It is probably a matter of electability. Hillary is much more likely to get the independent vote. Obama's strong showing is in part due to the {majority} of the minority vote going to Obama.

Have to disagree on that point. I think you will find a number of Obama voters in the primary (mostly independents and cross over Republicans) who would never vote for Clinton in the general election. Among moderates, it will be a horse race between Obama and McCain, but I think McCain wins hands down if Clinton is the Dem nominee (and that's what the polls show).

 

[chinaco]

Have to disagree on that point. I think you will find a number of Obama voters in the primary (mostly independents and cross over Republicans) who would never vote for Clinton in the general election. Among moderates, it will be a horse race between Obama and McCain, but I think McCain wins hands down if Clinton is the Dem nominee (and that's what the polls show).

If he gets the nomination, we will see how it turns out.

The obvious concern is that Obama may be a bit of a closet Sharpton/Jackson. That is enough to put many off.

Remember, even the Democratic party is split.

We are independents. Neither DW or I plan to vote for Obama. Put it like this to vote for Obama would require some huge scandal about McCain (not likely)

If Obama is nominated, he will get the hardcore Dem vote for sure (those that vote the party). Moderate Demcrats may defect. Independents (more in the middle... hybrid Republocrats or Demublicans whichever) will likely lean toward McCain (Seen as a moderate republican). Most Republicans will vote McCain. The funny thing is that most Republicans are not happy with McCain. But you can bet they will rally around him when the election happens (just like the hardcore dems for whomever is nominated).

This may be a tough thing for you to swallow. But it is very likely. Hillary is correct on her electability comment. Many view her as a safer bet.

 

[haha]

We May Have Left Ourselves With Three Poor Choices

Somehow we wound up with three senators running. An old one, a medium old one, and a young and very inexperienced one.

Senators have proven their ability to get elected, and usually to get re-elected. Also to more or less keep their feet out of their mouths. While some senators have done a lot more, our current crop of candidates perhaps not yet. So while senatorial experience might be helpful, particularly if it includes chairing some of the more powerful committees, it really isn’t a line job as the presidency is.

Here is the first potential candidate I have seen mentioned that makes sense, and from my POV she would possibly be the best prepared presidential candidate in a very long time: Condoleezza Rice.

http://voterice.wikia.com/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice?useskin=monobook&save=true

Other draft candidates that I have heard mentioned - Gore and Mike Bloomberg- sound no better to me than the ones we already have running.

Any headhunter in America when looking at her resume would think here is someone qualified to run America.

I guess she may have thought that she would be too tainted by association with Bush’s unpopular Near East decisions to stand a chance, but I am not so sure. A lot of Bush’s unpopularity may be due to his odd manner- something which Condoleezza does not have.

I suppose she may be a running mate for McCain, but I would prefer to see her head the ticket.

Ha

 

[ziggy29]

Here is the first potential candidate I have seen mentioned that makes sense, and from my POV she would possibly be the best prepared presidential candidate in a very long time: Condoleezza Rice.

...

I guess she may have thought that she would be too tainted by association with Bush’s unpopular Near East decisions to stand a chance, but I am not so sure. A lot of Bush’s unpopularity may be due to his odd manner- something which Condoleezza does not have.

I think that's the problem, too -- excess baggage by association with an unpopular presidency. I wouldn't rule out Condi in the future, but she may need a few years to rehabilitate her image as something other than a Bush puppet. I think she's more than that -- a lot more -- but that will likely be the opinion of much of the electorate, at least for now.

 

[Letj]

Amigo, you are doing the ad hominem boogie. If the moderators are listening, they might consider warning you. I didn't call you a jerk, and I won't here. If you need to come at me like this, you must be out of relevant rational statements to make. Or you really are feeling like your man doesn't have much substantive to be said about him.

In America, as far as I know, you don't ban political speech, especially when true. What I said was absolutely true. I didn't say Obama was the moral equivalent of Hitler. That would take some doing for sure. We don't really know much about Obama, as the Germans didn't really know much about Hitler. But what I cited is a simple fact. They both came out of nowhere with powerful speaking abilities, the ability to marshal charisma and personal power and a message for hope and change to a nation feeling kind of battered

But Adolph captivated a country every bit as sophisticated and advanced as ours, if not more so. He was not the product of a military overthrow. His platform was very attractive, hope, social justice, and other familiar sounding themes from this years primary campaign. What is Hillary complaining about all the time? That Obama talks pretty and says nothing of substance. Clearly he is well coached, as the best approach to the idiot American electorate is to smile, be tall, and not say anything or have done anything that your opponents could focus on during the campaign. I find hilarious the offering of Oba's "experience" in the Illinois State Legislature as meaningful experience making someone suitable to be a president of the United States.

If he is so good, wouldn't he still be good eight years from now when is no longer an act of faith and desperate hope? The Dems are likely to win; how would Obama be better than Hillary? Hillary does have a history. Obama has a website.

I didn't say anything about Obama and anti-Semitism, because I don't know anything about that. Though the Louis Farrakhan connection might be worrisome to some.

Republicans have had to listen to their leaders being called fascists for years.

As to your slap at my concern for increased taxes- at least I have interests in the election more real than "hope". I don’t look to politics to give my life meaning. That I can keep them just a little bit out of my pocket is all I ever expect.

I cede hope to you, amigo; I'll take something more substantial.

BTW, if you are interested in some parallels between modern US style liberalism and the National Socialism of Germany, a good recent book by an LA Times reporter is Liberal Fascism by Eli Goldberg. But I don't imagine you have time for investigating what you are spouting about; just time for attacking me.

Ha

As for your reference to Farakkan, you are employing the classic smear tactics and swiftboating. Your Hitler comparison is tasteless and dispicable and was done for only one reason which I don't have to point out to you. Your implication that people are falling for Obama because he is charismatic and gives good speeches like Hitler is preposterous. Why did you not liken him to other great American leaders like JFK? Why Hitler? Are you suggesting that Americans should be afraid of him because he reminds them of Hitler? This country has been very close to Hitler's Germany a few times in its history but for some reason you're not pointing out the presidents that made that possible? I guess you don't know of any other politicians in the US that you can liken to Hitler? Huh? BTW, Obama did not just come from nowhere. He's been an Illinois Senator for 8 years and has done some really good things for that state. That doesn't count in your book or does it? What qualifies someone to be president?

 

[Letj]

What do you know about this man other than words on a site and a few speeches?

He has very little track record. Hillary had it right when she said that she has been vetted.

People know Clinton and McCain. Obama can say anything... because he has little to no track record.

Q: What is the quickest way for the Democratic party to jeopardize the 2008 election?
A: Endorse an unknown.

We are independents.

I have not made my mind up yet.

DW says she is voting for Hillary. If Hillary doesn't make it to the General Election, she says she is voting for McCain. Will she change her mind closer to the election? Possibly, but I doubt it.

What qualifies Hillary more than Obama? Being the wife of a president? Well I guess the wife of a doctor must be qualified to be a doctor herself.

 

[Letj]

(putting on moderator hat) Can we all please remember that we are among friends here? It is possible for us to disagree without being disagreeable. Let us not resort to ad hominem attacks and insults. I hereby chastise myself for my remark to cantlogin.

(taking off moderator hat)

For me, the choice now is relatively easy. I long ago made the decision that I would never vote for anyone who supported the war. McCain seems truly to have believed and still believes that the Iraq war was and is necessary. I think he is wrong, so I won't vote for him, but I respect his belief. Clinton's vote to authorize the war was, in my opinion, nothing but political posturing. She saw which way the wind was blowing, knew that she would eventually run for president and did not want to be seen as weak on defense, so she voted in favor. It is telling that she never read the NIE. It is one thing to be honest but mistaken in taking the nation to war. It is quite another to send the children of others to die in order to serve your own political ambition. I find that unforgivable. I believe that Clinton's action in this regard should trouble even those who support the war.

As far as their positions on various issues go, I acknowledge that Clinton and Obama are very close. I also recognize that I do not agree with either of them on everything. If anything, I think Obama is not liberal enough. In any event, as others have pointed out, there is always a wide gulf between what a candidate has for aspirations and what actually can be accomplished once in Washington. But Obama is the only one talking about what I believe is really important -- we must fix the process and we must all work together to do so. We cannot afford to retreat back to the politics of personal destruction so rampant in the last 20 years. Unless we bring this nation together, all the policies in the world will not solve our problems. The people are ready for a change, and, no, it can't wait another eight years.

Those who say McCain and Clinton have a record are right, they do. But neither one is something I would be proud of (caveat - I'm not talking about McCain's service in the Navy, only his time as a Senator).

Nice nice post Gumby. You truly seem like someone without an ax grind and someone really thinking about the issues. You better watch out because the reactionaries on here may just label you as the kool aid drinker.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

Nice nice post Gumby. You truly seem like someone without an ax grind and someone really thinking about the issues. You better watch out because the reactionaries on here may just label you as the kool aid drinker.

You should learn that everyone might not agree with you. It might help you with a few of those anger issues you have.

 

[Letj]

Straight from Obama's Web Site:



2 years in the Senate .... hasn't balanced a budget larger than his checkbook or managed a workforce larger than his personal staff.

I expect more credentials from the leader of the free world.

Don't worry; the leader of the free world can't be everything at the same time. That's why they have a staff. I hope you didn't vote for George Bush because he had no foreign affairs experience when he was elected. In fact, he had never been outside of North America. This should be a prerequisite for anyone wanting to run for president. That explains why he mucked up the world. When you hold the scrutiny bulb up to Obama, I hope you're doing the same for all the other politicians, especially those you like.

 

[chinaco]

As for your reference to Farakkan, you are employing the classic smear tactics and swiftboating. Your Hitler comparison is tasteless and dispicable and was done for only one reason which I don't have to point out to you.

You at it over here too.

You are connecting dots that do not exist. Your PC outrage is a bit misplaced.

Do not confuse rhetoric with racism. People use rhetoric, comparison and contrast to accentuate points.

Playing the race card is a tactic that is somewhat effective at shutting people up. I find the tactic a little despicable. You certainly will not convince anyone to your way of thinking by calling them a racist.

Geez you would think HA advised someone to buy an annuity the way you are reacting.

 

[Letj]

For the Dems. It is probably a matter of electability. Hillary is much more likely to get the independent vote. Obama's strong showing is in part due to the {majority} of the minority vote going to Obama.

The only reason why Obama could have garnered more popular vote than Hillary is because of the independent votes and the few republicans voting for him. Obama has won almost half of the white votes. In every poll conducted Obama beats McCain and it's primarily independents gravitating towards him. Have you been connected to the issues. It does not seem that you've been following this election very much.

 

[chinaco]

The only reason why Obama could have garnered more popular vote than Hillary is because of the independent votes and the few republicans voting for him. Obama has won almost half of the white votes. In every poll conducted Obama beats McCain and it's primarily independents gravitating towards him. Have you been connected to the issues. It does not seem that you've been following this election very much.

Let the voters speak in the general election. If he wins the election, so be it. We will get a good look at his politics and policies.

My point is that I am not likely to vote for a newbie with a short track record. Especially one that may jack up taxes. It seems like a risk and I am not inclined to take that risk.

Isn't that the beauty of a free nation. You can vote as you see fit and so can I.

 

[Gumby]

Chinaco:

You and I have been undertaxed for far too long. It's time to pay the piper. Increased taxes will occur regardless of who becomes the president.

 

[Letj]

You should learn that everyone might not agree with you. It might help you with a few of those anger issues you have.

You don't know me so you're not qualified to judge. I don't have any anger problems but I do feel the need to respond in a direct way to those nasty comments I saw on here today that have nothing to do with the real issues. It's exactly the nasty politics that I don't like. Let's stick to the facts and stop comparing good people with Hitler and creating associations just to discredit someone. I am passionate about pointing out such dispicable behavior and for that I make no apologies. You can go ahead and pretend to ignore such behavior and refer to it as a different point of view but respect the fact that I feel the need to speak out against it. Just like I would not stand by and allow a child to get hurt or allow prejudice to go unchallenged. Think of the war that has resulted in an estimated 100,000 Iraqis killed and thousand of Americans killed. Do you think the outcome would be different if we all raised our voices in protest?

 

[Letj]

You at it over here too.

You are connecting dots that do not exist. Your PC outrage is a bit misplaced.

Do not confuse rhetoric with racism. People use rhetoric, comparison and contrast to accentuate points.

Playing the race card is a tactic that is somewhat effective at shutting people up. I find the tactic a little despicable. You certainly will not convince anyone to your way of thinking by calling them a racist.

Geez you would think HA advised someone to buy an annuity the way you are reacting.

What race card? I don't have any to play. I drew a legitimate conclusion from your post on the other thread? What I did not do was to read the entire thread so my conclusion was somewhat out of context.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

You don't know me so you're not qualified to judge. I don't have any anger problems but I do feel the need to respond in a direct way to those nasty comments I saw on here today that have nothing to do with the real issues. It's exactly the nasty politics that I don't like. Let's stick to the facts and stop comparing good people with Hitler and creating associations just to discredit someone. I am passionate about pointing out such dispicable behavior and for that I make no apologies. You can go ahead and pretend to ignore such behavior and refer to it as a different point of view but respect the fact that I feel the need to speak out against it. Just like I would not stand by and allow a child to get hurt or allow prejudice to go unchallenged. Think of the war that has resulted in an estimated 100,000 Iraqis killed and thousand of Americans killed. Do you think the outcome would be different if we all raised our voices in protest?

Oh I know you. Well enough to know your type. You already accused one poster of making racist comments which was far from the truth.

 

[Letj]

Oh I know you. Well enough to know your type. You already accused one poster of making racist comments which was far from the truth.

Were you the one admonishing me that others may hold a different opinion? Well you have just proven yourself to be quite judgmental. I know your types too; the type that you cannot have a rational disagreement without being labeled. Why don't you just come out and say you support the Hitler comparison rather than ducking behind the fence throwing rocks in defense of other posters. I don't need to have any further discussion with you because God knows what the next label would be.

 

[mickeyd]

The question of the day is: If Hill wins it all at the Dem convention this summer, who will have the balls to say "yes" to her request to be the VP? If Hill actually wins in November, will that person be subservient to Bill? Will that person be two heartbeats from the presidency or one heartbeat as current custom requires?

 

[chinaco]

Were you the one admonishing me that others may hold a different opinion? Well you have just proven yourself to be quite judgmental. I know your types too; the type that you cannot have a rational disagreement without being labeled. Why don't you just come out and say you support the Hitler comparison rather than ducking behind the fence throwing rocks in defense of other posters. I don't need to have any further discussion with you because God knows what the next label would be.

You poisoned any non-emotional political discussion that might go on in this thread.

People have opinion and point of view. You start with the personal attacks and that ends the civil conversation.

 

[Gumby]

I wouldn't want that VP job for all the tea in China.

 

[haha]

Why did you not liken him to other great American leaders like JFK?

I think because I knew that you were bored today and I wanted to give you something to seethe about.

Now my dear, I notice that you are long on invective, but perhaps short on liberal education. It was interesting that you mentioned Jack Kennedy, whose candidacy as you pointed out clearly had a lot on common with Obama's today. Herb Goldberg, in his book Liberal Fascism clarifies the clearly fascists aspects of the Kennedy cult of personality, his appointing Bobby to be Attorney General so he could punish severely anyone who didn't come along sweetly, and his mob ties.

And of course the family patriarch Joseph had a long association with fascism.

Here's a short excerpt from a recent Slate article, by James Currin, reviewing the book, Liberal Fascism. As you perhaps know, Slate is hardly a publication of right wing nut-jobs.

“Before we can discuss Mr. Goldberg's thesis, we must get beyond Orwell's famous dismissal of Fascism as "anything not desirable" and try to define its essence. It will not do to simply identify it with Hitler or Franco or Mussolini. Had Herr Hitler suppressed his voracious appetite for war and his murderous hatred of the Jews, he would have become one of the most admired statesmen of the mid-twentieth century. The New York Times would have written rapturous editorials approving of his vision and moderation.

So, what is the essence of fascism? Do you yearn for a charismatic leader who can move beyond the petty squabbles of political faction, and discern a common will to be expressed in a flurry of legislation. If that is so, then you are a Fascist. The current embodiment of this ideal is the boy orator from Illinois. This is of course not to say that Barack Obama is a Fascist. But his expressed ideals are.

Slate -> The Fray -> Books

It is so difficult to discuss history with someone who knows nothing of it. But for a take on how Hitler was perceived in both America and England prior to his invasion of Poland, read some speeches by Neville Chamberlain, read what Henry Ford said, what Lucky Lindy said.

If you could control your anger and name calling you might see that I agree that your candidate does indeed have excellent oratorical skills, and is in the popularity contest of a modern American election, a very good candidate. I really don't think I should be punished for pointing out that oratory is not necessarily correlated with good government.

For an African American candidate who is clearly qualified to lead as well as run, see my post above on Condoleezza Rice.

And quit calling me names; you are calling yourself stupid.

Ha

 

[Gumby]

From what I have read of Condoleeza Rice, she seems eminently qualified and I think McCain would be wise to make her his VP candidate. To me, the principal downside is that she has too often been the "good soldier" going along with GWB.

 

[FinanceDude]

To me, the principal downside is that she has too often been the "good soldier" going along with GWB.

I thought that was the MO of the National Security Advisor, to agree with the President........seems to me that has been the case for many years......

 

[Gumby]

She has been the Secretary of State since 2005, but the same concept holds true. Yes, when you become the NSA or Sec. State, you know that you are serving at the pleasure of the president and should generally be onboard. At some point, however, you have to say "enough is enough, you are ruining the country and I can't be part of it" and quit.