My reason for urgently needing a HELOC

Oh, OK. Most gamblers around here do at least SOME online gambling, but I guess she doesn't have a computer (hopefully she sold it to pay back her debt).

And then, here many things are legal that probably aren't in your state (such as video poker, horses, casinos, the lottery). Gambling here doesn't take much time at all.
 
Oh, OK. Most gamblers around here do at least SOME online gambling, but I guess she doesn't have a computer (hopefully she sold it to pay back her debt).

They don't have internet and she is not computer literate. She may be buying thousands of lottery tickets for all I know though. But the way she got into five figure debts at private card games is almost certainly not happening right now.
 
But the way she got into five figure debts at private card games is almost certainly not happening right now.

Wow what an ironic post and I'm tasting a little of my foot in my mouth right now. SIL wasn't actually gambling as I typed that post, but she was coming home from an all night gambling bender just a few hours before that post. I just hadn't found out about the gambling yet!

I had no clue of the overnight gambling during the birthday party today, but SIL's husband called DW and me after the party was over to fill us in. SIL was apparently eavesdropping on her husband and I during the party today to see what he would say to me. The husband's call to us tonight set into motion a whole chain of events (to be described in subsequent posts as time allows).

The upside is that everyone in the family is DONE giving her the benefit of the doubt and DONE giving her any money. We have offered the husband and their three kids a place to stay and food to eat if it comes to that.

I guess the group consensus here was right on this one. She is a gambling addict and cannot change overnight.

I think I handled this in the best way possible for myself and DW. I am so glad I took the "wait and see" approach to this. I had a deep down gut feeling that she wasn't done gambling yet when I talked to her on the Sunday after the Intervention. DW and I are 100% in agreement on this, and the rest of the family now knows what SIL is capable of and how to treat her. The trust there is gone. I think everyone is ready for the tough love approach and willing to let SIL hit rock bottom.
 
You are right, Fuego. I am truly sorry that you are having to go through this, though. :(

Your decision that you are done giving her money is sensible and really you have no choice. You are doing the right thing by thinking of your immediate family first, including the future of your sweet, adorable little daughter who was in your photo in that other thread.
 
Damn. I was really hoping for a better outcome. I'm so sorry Fuego. I second W2R's thoughts.
 
I guess the group consensus here was right on this one. She is a gambling addict and cannot change overnight.
I know everyone was hoping it wasn't so but it the information you provided made it pretty clear to the vast majority who responded that this was the case. Very glad you took the position you did and weren't sucked into giving her money to feed her habit. Your family has a real battle ahead. All the best in your efforts to provide support to her husband and kids.
 
Glad you saw her true colors BEFORE you tapped into that HELOC for her benefit.

Hope she will learn a lesson and get some help before her whole life goes down the toilet...

lhamo
 
I'm so so sorry to read this. The intervention helped identify the problem to everyone in her family and made the extent of it public to them (although she could be even deeper in debt than she let on).

Going back on her promise must be so painful to everyone but now you know who needs your help (her husband and children) and who doesn't (her).
 
You are on the right course now (for SIL as well as yourself). While many of us thought it was crazy your earlier willingness to take a wait and see approach will certainly help maintain your own relationship with your wife and her family. You did everything you reasonably could and, in fact, went well above and beyond.
 
I had no clue of the overnight gambling during the birthday party today, but SIL's husband called DW and me after the party was over to fill us in. SIL was apparently eavesdropping on her husband and I during the party today to see what he would say to me. The husband's call to us tonight set into motion a whole chain of events (to be described in subsequent posts as time allows).

When SIL's husband called yesterday, he also let us know that SIL was currently out gambling (yesterday evening). We decided to call her on the pretext that our daughter just wanted to chit chat with her. No answer on her cell (busy gambling). My DW is pissed. DW calls her (and SIL's) mom, informs her that SIL is out gambling again as they were speaking and was also out all night Saturday until around 9:00 AM Sunday.

DW's dad hears this telephone conversation about the continued gambling and decides to go to the party house and tell SIL (his daughter) to stop gambling and go home. SIL complies and they both peacefully leave (from what I hear).

SIL goes home to her husband and yelling/disagreements ensue. SIL says she has lost another $2000 (which probably means $3000-4000 and this is on top of whatever she lost Sat night and into Sun morning). SIL tells her husband that they really really really need to refinance their house and suck out all the equity (they wouldn't qualify for a refi loan anyway so it is a moot point). Husband tells her to calm down, sleep on it and they can discuss it this morning.

My DW's mom (my MIL) feels betrayed in this. Her eldest daughter, formerly "the responsible one" that has helped take care of the parents, is now a gambling addict and causing serious problems in her household and others. Now MIL may be out her $12000 (~1/2 her life savings). MIL calls SIL and gives her a piece of her mind. MIL reminds SIL of how they came to America when SIL was still a young child, and how they didn't have a penny to their name. Through decades of hard work and saving a little bit here and there, they managed to buy a house (and almost pay off the whole mortgage now) and save a little bit of money. MIL told SIL that they were able to accomplish this without ever winning any money at the gambling tables. And now SIL is wasting away all of her family's money and MIL's money trying to win big at the tables (well, they technically play on the floor).

Keep in mind this is all happening on mother's day. :(

SIL's husband had also informed us that SIL went crazy Saturday morning and accused husband of going behind her back and telling people about her gambling and conspiring against her efforts to acquire more money by borrowing from relatives (DW and I and SIL's mom). Husband basically said "yes, what do you want me to do, lie for you and lie to your mother when she asks about what you are doing? I am not doing that". SIL's response when confronted with the challenge that she has broken a promise to her mother to stop gambling: "I don't care, she is my mother what is she going to do to me". Wow.

Apparently while SIL was out at the gambling party Sunday night, all her fellow gamblers were encouraging her to continue gambling and applying the peer pressure pretty thick. Even though she had just lost many thousands of dollars, her fellow gamblers kept telling her "oh that is nothing. We all can lose $10,000-$20,000 and it is nothing. Don't let it bother you." Wow again.

I don't think there is a whole lot left to do at this point. SIL has apparently decided that gambling is her thing and she's sticking to it ("how's that working out for ya?"). I have told her husband to keep his income to himself for now, and if he wants to keep the house, keep paying the mortgage. And put food on the table. But don't give SIL any money because it will go to gambling. Set up a separate bank account and keep your money in there (or hidden). He knows this all may not end well for his marriage, but he doesn't have a lot left to lose at this point.

Everyone in the family has come to the conclusion that SIL will have to hit rock bottom on her own. Unfortunately for MIL, she has probably lost $12000. But we all know SIL is untrustworthy and literally willing to betray her own mother to get a buck to keep gambling. But we all had to come to this conclusion in our own ways. It is just a matter of time, and a matter of luck, until SIL hits bottom. She has exhausted all of her sources of credit from family, and soon her 10% monthly interest payments will not be serviced, and then she will have exhausted her credit lines from her fellow gamblers as her credit rating with them drops off the cliff.

The only other thing I plan to do is talk to the oldest of SIL's sons at some point. He has 3 years of HS left. He has already kind of figured out that he has to help out around the house because his mother doesn't do a lot anymore. But he needs to know there probably won't be much money there to help him through college (if he chooses that path), and that getting a car and auto insurance as soon as he turns 16 may not be a reality. And that he shouldn't pressure his father too much to spend a lot on a car for him. He has already started talking about getting a summer job for his own spending money. Unfortunately he is going to have to become a man sooner rather than later.
 
Fuego, you have my sympathies. I think you did all you could so far and have done right by your DW's family (including SIL). They are lucky to have you on board.

You may want to suggest to SIL's husband that he chat with a lawyer. I suspect things could get ugly with SIL and making a separation of her mess from his finances may be very important.
 
Fuego,

I'm so sorry that you have to endure this.
 
Apparently while SIL was out at the gambling party Sunday night, all her fellow gamblers were encouraging her to continue gambling and applying the peer pressure pretty thick. Even though she had just lost many thousands of dollars, her fellow gamblers kept telling her "oh that is nothing. We all can lose $10,000-$20,000 and it is nothing. Don't let it bother you." Wow again.

Why is this surprising? She is the goose, they have to keep her laying until she is tapped out. You know, it is likely that she is being cheated by some group of these players. Even if she is a very mediocre player, losing consistently raises red flags.

Ha
 
You may want to suggest to SIL's husband that he chat with a lawyer. I suspect things could get ugly with SIL and making a separation of her mess from his finances may be very important.

I have mentioned to SIL's husband that if/when he decides to make a split, he will have to get "outside counsel". I am his attorney in a small business-related lawsuit right now, but I made it clear that I would not be able to represent him in family law matters.

He's still trying to stick with SIL right now, and I don't want to push him into a divorce prematurely. I have just given him some friendly advice on what to focus on financially, since keeping his house is very important to him.
 
Fuego,

Sorry things took a turn for the worse; was hoping for update was going to be announcing a better outcome. What a crappy Mothers Day for MIL and SIL's kids...

Glad you held the line on the $10,300 "loan" to SIL; you would be out the whole amount, with the kneecappers eying you for the now-escalating balance. Let's hope MIL holds the line on the other half of her life savings; maybe she should give it to you to hold for her protection? Sounds like SIL would take it without blinking an eye...


At this point the best short-term course of action might be to go to Costco and buy a bale of toilet paper, along with soap, shampoo, paper towels, toothpaste etc...- take it over to their house so you know the kids are going to be presentable every day. And let them know if they are hungry to come over to your place at any time, no questions asked.

One nagging thought-If they are out of toilet paper, it sounds like DH has already checked out, mentally if not physically.

Stand firm; it sounds like you are the steadying influence in this mess. As things continue to deteriorate, your nieces and nephews are going to be looking for something stable to gravitate to; and you and DW are probably their safest bet. ;)

All the best,
WS
 
Why is this surprising? She is the goose, they have to keep her laying until she is tapped out. You know, it is likely that she is being cheated by some group of these players. Even if she is a very mediocre player, losing consistently raises red flags.

We have told her in many un-nice ways that she is a sucker, she is a chump. She keeps giving away her money and is being played. I assume her fellow players are cheating too - easy way to make money from suckers. She has been told many times that they just want her to keep playing and keep losing (because they win!). And she has been told that these people cheat. She has seen it first hand, when she hosts games at her house. Cards will go missing from the deck. Cards are bent or marked or folded to indicate what they are. They switch decks very often because of the cheating.

Yet they keep playing with their "friends" and family, even though some of them cheat. Makes no sense to me...
 
Fuego,

Sorry things took a turn for the worse; was hoping for update was going to be announcing a better outcome. What a crappy Mothers Day for MIL and SIL's kids...

Glad you held the line on the $10,300 "loan" to SIL; you would be out the whole amount, with the kneecappers eying you for the now-escalating balance. Let's hope MIL holds the line on the other half of her life savings; maybe she should give it to you to hold for her protection? Sounds like SIL would take it without blinking an eye...

We already hold the MIL's money just because of situations like this (and it is safer in a bank than in MIL's secret hiding spot(s) in cash). Thank goodness, because my DW has said "we are not giving away any more of mom's money". DW will talk sense into her mom if her mom wants to give more money. I doubt it will happen at this point. The trust has been broken.


At this point the best short-term course of action might be to go to Costco and buy a bale of toilet paper, along with soap, shampoo, paper towels, toothpaste etc...- take it over to their house so you know the kids are going to be presentable every day. And let them know if they are hungry to come over to your place at any time, no questions asked.

One nagging thought-If they are out of toilet paper, it sounds like DH has already checked out, mentally if not physically.

Stand firm; it sounds like you are the steadying influence in this mess. As things continue to deteriorate, your nieces and nephews are going to be looking for something stable to gravitate to; and you and DW are probably their safest bet. ;)

I think it is just a few items here and there that they run out of. It was trash bags 2 weeks ago, then toilet paper this last time. They "borrowed" 4-5 rolls from MIL's house I think. We will help out a little here and there as needed to make sure they are well fed and clean.

We are the de facto steadying influence in all this mess now. SIL's husband talks to us a lot more now, mainly because he just needs someone to talk to and get this all off his chest. My DW will do her part with her parents to make sure they don't buckle to any guilt trips. SIL's husband has been adamantly opposed to giving SIL any money all along, and he is holding up amazingly well in his ability to say "NO".

I think the best way out of this mess will be some form of bankruptcy or negotiated debt settlement for legit creditors, and complete or close to complete default as to the gambling debtors.

By the way, thanks for the kind words and helpful suggestions folks. I have come to grips with my feelings on the situation, I just feel sorry that DW is losing a sister, MIL is losing a daughter, the husband is losing a wife, and their kids are losing a mother. Time will tell.
 
I am amazed the table players would allow a player in such debt back at the table. Common sense would say the $$ is not real until it's paid. I have to believe that once they see she can not - or will not - pay they will not permit her to play. Then things get REAL interesting.

Perhaps the best "invervention" would be to announce to the table that SIL is "broke" and "cut-off" from family funds.

Or are there too many other tables?
 
I am amazed the table players would allow a player in such debt back at the table. Common sense would say the $$ is not real until it's paid. I have to believe that once they see she can not - or will not - pay they will not permit her to play. Then things get REAL interesting.

Perhaps the best "invervention" would be to announce to the table that SIL is "broke" and "cut-off" from family funds.

Or are there too many other tables?

I think the debt is divvied up among enough people in small enough amounts that they aren't worried about non-repayment of the debt at this point. And SIL has recently repaid $12000 of debt to one person, thereby creating a mirage of solvency and ability to get large quantities of money quickly.

That may be one approach we can take. We plan to have someone from the family (maybe her father) go in and pull her out of the gambling action at parties. It may come down to a fight (mostly verbal) at some point. Maybe we can add "oh by the way, she is broke and I wouldn't lend her any money". I will tell DW to encourage her parents to spread the word that SIL is broke among the distant family and "friends". The other gamblers aren't the most sophisticated people financially though (think your typical subprime borrower). Eventually the people she is borrowing money from will not receive their 10% vig each month, and word will get out.

Everyone knows everyone, so once the bad rep was established I think that would be the end of it for this particular type of gambling. I think part of the motivation for SIL is to beat these particular sets of people at a particular card game.

In a way it feels like a great weight is lifted since I am done wondering about "is she done with the gambling".
 
Thanks, I'll mention this to SIL's husband and offer to go with him to the first meeting. There is a local meeting near us. I take it this is a support group for family of the problem gambler?
Yep. Even if she's not ready, they're more than ready.

You have another consideration, and I'm really not sure how to handle it. Not to be overly grim, but I've been badly shocked three times in my life by shipmates committing suicide over problems which really weren't "that bad". As your SIL approaches rock bottom, with apparently every hand turned against her and even her family condemning her, she may find this option worth considering.
 
You have another consideration, and I'm really not sure how to handle it. Not to be overly grim, but I've been badly shocked three times in my life by shipmates committing suicide over problems which really weren't "that bad". As your SIL approaches rock bottom, with apparently every hand turned against her and even her family condemning her, she may find this option worth considering.

Unfortunately that is a possibility. Nothing would lead me to believe that it is any more likely in this case than a general case of hitting rock bottom due to an addiction though. She isn't clinically depressed as best I can tell. But the possibility of suicide is worrying. On the positive side, all of her family are right here in the same part of town, and she is still welcome at our houses.

I don't know how it will be going forward, but it was a fairly normal birthday party on Sunday BEFORE anyone found out about the continued gambling. It will definitely be more awkward in the future though. So far she continues to act as if life is completely normal and nothing is wrong, even as things are crumbling around her. Maybe the calm facade has been there all along, and her life has never been normal or stable?
 
Sad situation all around for everyone involved. HOwever, until she admits she has a problem nothing will change.
 
I just heard that SIL went to her mother's house and took her $2000-3000 worth of gold jewelry back. My understanding was that her mother was going to hold onto this gold until the loan was repaid. And hold onto the gold so she wouldn't liquidate it. Guess that wasn't the case, since SIL apparently received the gold peacefully and didn't have to sneak in and steal it or anything. I guess that will go to repay the $2000-4000 she lost this weekend. Swirling the drain...
 

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