Abandoning EVs

[Texas Proud]

I know there are a number of people who love their EVs and think that it is the best thing out there... and it seems that gvmt was pushing for ONLY EV sales by 2030 or 2035...


But some of us were skeptical... it now seems that the big auto makers are also getting skeptical... some are starting to go the way of Toyota, producing hybrids.... which a bunch here said was more practical...



From the article...


Ford lost an estimated $36,000 on each of the 36,000 electric vehicles it delivered to dealers in the quarter - even more than its estimated $32,350 loss per EV in the second quarter.


Ford said its EV unit posted a loss in earnings before interest and taxes of $1.3 billion, bringing its nine-month EBIT loss to $3.1 billion. The company had forecast a full-year pretax loss of $4.5 billion for the Ford Model e unit.








https://www.reuters.com/business/au...ws-2023-forecast-warns-ev-results-2023-10-26/


There are other articles out there about GM and Stelantis dong the same...

 

[aja8888]

Looks like my Chevy Bolt will be a classic someday when all other EV's are foreign made or Tesla.

I have to agree, cost pressures in building a totally new business (EV's for U.S. legacy companies) are killing them.

But when I picked up my Bolt EUV, a new Chev Pickup was on the floor and the sticker was $85,000. I'll bet they are not losing money on that truck! And the Camero next to it was $49,000 (really a nothing special Camero).

Oh, and new Vette in the lot in front was $140,000 (loaded). Sold sticker on it.

 

[FlaMariner]

What? The consumer is in control?

Too bad Ford/GM listened to the gubment instead of the people. Costly mistake $$$$.

 

[Ronstar]

....Oh, and new Vette in the lot in front was $140,000 (loaded). Sold sticker on it.

There's one out there somewhere with your name on it. Go find it!

 

[Car-Guy]

But some of us were skeptical... it now seems that the big auto makers are also getting skeptical... some are starting to go the way of Toyota, producing hybrids.... which a bunch here said was more practical...

Not at all surprising to me..

Oh, and new Vette in the lot in front was $140,000 (loaded). Sold sticker on it.

Yep, and ~5 years ago you could get a nicely equipped Vette for ~70k. Those days are long gone.

 

[Breedlove]

Went to the Lonestar Motorcycle rally Friday …A new Harley Davidson CVO …..Are you sitting down……Starting at 52,000 decked out , almost 60,000….. A motorcycle .


I have a Cyber Truck in line ,paid my 100.00 ….Right now , I will not get it.

 

[easysurfer]

As long as there aren't enough charging stations around and a charge isn't as quick as a fast gas fill up, a hybrid seems more practical to me overall.

Of course, if you have the extra space in your garage for a 2nd car and charging station then I can see the EV as a good extra.

 

[Midpack]

I know there are a number of people who love their EVs and think that it is the best thing out there... and it seems that gvmt was pushing for ONLY EV sales by 2030 or 2035...

But some of us were skeptical... it now seems that the big auto makers are also getting skeptical... some are starting to go the way of Toyota, producing hybrids.... which a bunch here said was more practical…

There are other articles out there about GM and Stelantis dong the same...

If you think Ford, GM, Toyota or Stelantis represent what an EV can/should be, it’s no wonder you’re “skeptical.” All of them scoffed at EVs until they were at least 10 years behind. Toyota actively lobbied against EVs, now they’re saying one thing and scrambling to do otherwise.

Ford’s Mach E is so technically inferior to Tesla it’s a joke, and the Lightning has been plagued with problems and price gouging. GM’s Bolt is a bargain but it’s old inferior tech as well. The Lyriq, Hummer, and other coming GM EVs are stuck in a profit vs production scale Catch-22 they won’t get past easily - they are just starting to realize their mistakes. Stelantis doesn’t even have an EV in production, so they don’t have a choice - saying it’s a business decision to slow down is laughable. After years of promoting every alternative but EVs, Toyota is showing all sorts of EV concepts but they haven’t scaled anything either. They had to regroup when the bZ4X (and Subura Solterra) wheels literally fell off. Volkswagen has also flopped with the ID.4 so far. So much for legacy auto knowing better…

Yes, EV will slow as early adopters have already bought in - but Toyota and the “big three” aren’t indicators. EVs are already more affordable than many potential buyers realize, but they’re slowly learning. EVs will have to become more affordable to continue growth, but Tesla, BYD and others are working to satisfy a larger “addressable market.” Hyundai/Kia and Polestar are making headway. BMW seems to be making a serious push into EVs. Mercedes too, though they’re prices are too high for the broad market.

Time will tell. But in the meantime you’ll always be able to find articles online to support whatever you want to believe…

Same people who resisted the internet, smartphones and other tech - until they embraced change.

 

[euro]

If you think Ford, GM, Toyota or Stelantis represent what an EV can/should be, it’s no wonder you’re “skeptical.” All of them scoffed at EVs until they were at least 10 years behind. Toyota actively lobbied against EVs, now they’re saying one thing and scrambling to do otherwise.

Ford’s Mach E is so technically inferior to Tesla it’s a joke, and the Lightning has been plagued with problems and price gouging. GM’s Bolt is a bargain but it’s old inferior tech as well. The Lyriq, Hummer, and other coming GM EVs are stuck in a profit vs production scale Catch-22 they won’t get past easily - they are just starting to realize their mistakes. Stelantis doesn’t even have an EV in production, so they don’t have a choice - saying it’s a business decision to slow down is laughable. After years of promoting every alternative but EVs, Toyota is showing all sorts of EV concepts but they haven’t scaled anything either. They had to regroup when the bZ4X (and Subura Solterra) wheels literally fell off. Volkswagen has also flopped with the ID.4 so far. So much for legacy auto knowing better…

Yes, EV will slow as early adopters have already bought in - but Toyota and the “big three” aren’t indicators. EVs are already more affordable than many potential buyers realize, but they’re slowly learning. EVs will have to become more affordable to continue growth, but Tesla, BYD and others are working to satisfy a larger “addressable market.” Hyundai/Kia and Polestar are making headway. BMW seems to be making a serious push into EVs. Mercedes too, though they’re prices are too high for the broad market.

Time will tell. But in the meantime you’ll always be able to find articles online to support whatever you want to believe…

Same people who resisted the internet, smartphones and other tech - until they embraced change.

Well said

 

[disneysteve]

EVs will have to become more affordable to continue growth

I think cost is one factor but an even more significant one is infrastructure and charging time. I know a lot of people (myself included) who hesitate to consider an EV. We like to take road trips. That might mean a 60-mile drive to the Jersey shore or a 1,000+ mile drive to Florida.

I'm not taking an EV on the road until I know that charging stations are as plentiful as gas stations and stopping for a charge won't suck up hours of our trip. Now if there are chargers outside every restaurant and we can charge when we stop for lunch, that would be great, but we're nowhere near that point yet. If I have to go to a special charging station (comparable to a gas station) and sit there doing nothing for 30 minutes, I'm out.

I live in the suburbs now but was born and raised in the city. We couldn't have charged at home because we parked on the street, sometimes close to our house, often not. Until they line every street in every town with chargers every few feet like parking meters, few city dwellers will be buying EVs.

Just to be clear, I am not at all anti-EV. I just don't think they're ready for prime time.

 

[Car-Guy]

I think cost is one factor but an even more significant one is infrastructure and charging time. I know a lot of people (myself included) who hesitate to consider an EV. We like to take road trips. That might mean a 60-mile drive to the Jersey shore or a 1,000+ mile drive to Florida.

I'm not taking an EV on the road until I know that charging stations are as plentiful as gas stations and stopping for a charge won't suck up hours of our trip. Now if there are chargers outside every restaurant and we can charge when we stop for lunch, that would be great, but we're nowhere near that point yet. If I have to go to a special charging station (comparable to a gas station) and sit there doing nothing for 30 minutes, I'm out.

I live in the suburbs now but was born and raised in the city. We couldn't have charged at home because we parked on the street, sometimes close to our house, often not. Until they line every street in every town with chargers every few feet like parking meters, few city dwellers will be buying EVs.

Just to be clear, I am not at all anti-EV. I just don't think they're ready for prime time.

+1 I'm sure there's been some improvements, but it sure seems slow coming and seems to have been this way since all this started from my POV. Maybe in another 10 years, but by then, I probably won't care.

 

[easysurfer]

Under today's conditions, if you have an EV and want to go on a long trip would you risk getting delayed or stranded because of not enough charging stations around?

I understand that may not be everyone's use of a car. But I think until then, I'd say too in general EV's are not ready for prime time.

Now if you only had short commutes and have your own charging station in your garage, I have a bit of EV envy .

 

[disneysteve]

Now if you only had short commutes and have your own charging station in your garage, I have a bit of EV envy .

And this is why hybrids are such a great compromise. With a hybrid, the first 20-30 miles is on the electric engine and the gas engine only kicks in after that. It's a great option for people who mostly drive around the neighborhood or who have relatively short commutes to work. My old office was 8 miles from my house. With a hybrid, the battery would have gotten me to and from work every day and I'd only burn gas on the weekends when we went out somewhere. But for anything longer than that, the battery charge would be exhausted 30 miles into the trip so the savings would be minimal, about a gallon or so of gas until we could charge again.

 

[audreyh1]

Under today's conditions, if you have an EV and want to go on a long trip would you risk getting delayed or stranded because of not enough charging stations around?

I understand that may not be everyone's use of a car. But I think until then, I'd say too in general EV's are not ready for prime time.

I think cost is one factor but an even more significant one is infrastructure and charging time. I know a lot of people (myself included) who hesitate to consider an EV. We like to take road trips. That might mean a 60-mile drive to the Jersey shore or a 1,000+ mile drive to Florida.

I'm not taking an EV on the road until I know that charging stations are as plentiful as gas stations and stopping for a charge won't suck up hours of our trip. Now if there are chargers outside every restaurant and we can charge when we stop for lunch, that would be great, but we're nowhere near that point yet. If I have to go to a special charging station (comparable to a gas station) and sit there doing nothing for 30 minutes, I'm out.

I live in the suburbs now but was born and raised in the city. We couldn't have charged at home because we parked on the street, sometimes close to our house, often not. Until they line every street in every town with chargers every few feet like parking meters, few city dwellers will be buying EVs.

Just to be clear, I am not at all anti-EV. I just don't think they're ready for prime time.

I can certainly understand the concerns, but as a veteran of already three 3000+ mile road trips, two of them in the sparse non-coastal western states, it is so doable already. The eastern states including Florida already have a lot of infrastructure. Charging time is no issue for us on long haul days as charging stops are perhaps 15-23 mins and we rarely spend more than an hour over a long distance day, most of which time we would have spent stopping anyway for various breaks. We love road tripping in our EV. It’s obviously prime time for us already.

It may be hard to imagine, but it’s real.

Looking forward to another 3000+ mile trip in April - Grand Canyon and other places in Arizona and New Mexico. Superchargers keep popping up in all sorts of useful places. Lots of areas have doubled or even quadrupled capacity in the last year or two.

FWIW we only have the one car.

 

[audreyh1]

Well said

+1

 

[Midpack]

Under today's conditions, if you have an EV and want to go on a long trip would you risk getting delayed or stranded because of not enough charging stations around?

I understand that may not be everyone's use of a car. But I think until then, I'd say too in general EV's are not ready for prime time.

Now if you only had short commutes and have your own charging station in your garage, I have a bit of EV envy .

You may have noticed most legacy automakers are converting to NACS outlets and clamoring to get access to Teslas charger network. Guess why?

If you mean any other charging network than Tesla you’re right. They’re scarcer, far less reliable and often slow charge rates. So if you don’t want a Tesla, I’d wait too. [And if you can’t charge at home, or do long trips often, I’d wait as well]

The Tesla charging network is vast and growing every day, and they are FAR more reliable. Furthermore there are several apps that give you suggested chargers to stop at enroute, they even show how many stalls are available in real time.

My annual drive to Chicagoland is 11 hours drive time, it always takes us no less than 12 hours with stops for food, gas and restrooms. With a Tesla, we would lose 2 hours stopping to charge. Chargers are almost always near facilities so we’d just eat and use restrooms while charging. So a 12 hour ICE trip becomes a 13 hour Tesla EV trip. I can live with that for the huge annual fuel savings charging at home every day I’m not doing long trips.

It’s tiresome how Tesla gets painted with the same charging infrastructure broad brush when they are two different worlds.

 

[joesxm3]

The fuel savings may not be as much as cracked up to be. My electricity rate is pretty high and my electric consumption shown on my bill seems to have gone up more than the amount claimed by the Tesla app on my phone. I am not sure if the wall connector has consumption that is not tracked or if something else like sump pumps is responsible.

Even so, I still like my tesla.

 

[JoeWras]

Remember the apartment dwellers.

Remember the large slice of the country that lives without a garage and marginal 100 or 70 amp service.

I don't like throwing around the "privilege" word, but I think it applies to this forum when speaking of EVs. We have the means to deal with at-home charging much better than the apartment dweller or the tough-side-of-town homeowner living in a mobile home or a modest 50's era home.

That's a huge slice of the customer base that cannot even begin to consider EVs until charging becomes really, really fast and easy.

 

[punkinhead]

I don't own an EV yet but I've noticed that everyone I know who owns one says charging during transcontinental travel is no big deal and the complaints that it would be a show stopper are all from people who don't own one.

 

[Midpack]

Remember the apartment dwellers.

Remember the large slice of the country that lives without a garage and marginal 100 or 70 amp service.

I don't like throwing around the "privilege" word, but I think it applies to this forum when speaking of EVs. We have the means to deal with at-home charging much better than the apartment dweller or the tough-side-of-town homeowner living in a mobile home or a modest 50's era home.

That's a huge slice of the customer base that cannot even begin to consider EVs until charging becomes really, really fast and easy.

That’s all certainly true, but I don’t know anyone who’s said everyone should have an EV now.

That said, there is still a huge addressable market who can afford an EV, can charge at home, and don’t go on long trips often - and don’t own an EV yet. Furthermore, it will take some time but EVs are coming down in price (despite legacy auto), and charging becomes faster and more accessible every day.

For those who’s mind isn’t already made up… https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/why-people-dont-buy-electric-cars

 

[JoeWras]

I don't own an EV yet but I've noticed that everyone I know who owns one says charging during transcontinental travel is no big deal and the complaints that it would be a show stopper are all from people who don't own one.

It really depends what is a big deal to you. When I filled up (gasoline) at my Sheetz on my last journey, a family that was filling up at the Tesla charger was enjoying a family game. They make the best of the time they have to wait. It was no big deal for them.

But that's not for everyone. Early adopters are more willing to accept the compromises. And there are compromises as it is today.

 

[Midpack]

I don't own an EV yet but I've noticed that everyone I know who owns one says charging during transcontinental travel is no big deal and the complaints that it would be a show stopper are all from people who don't own one.

I gave an actual comparison in post #16 - an 12 hour ICE trip takes 13 hours in a Tesla. It’s up to each potential buyer to decide if the other benefits are worth that.

And you can easily calculate how long a road trip will take in an ICE vehicle versus a Tesla EV - as long as you factor in stops for gas, food and restrooms, EV charging is not entirely additive to trip time. https://www.tesla.com/trips

And that’s it for me on this thread - the thread title is hogwash.

 

[pb4uski]

I know there are a number of people who love their EVs and think that it is the best thing out there... and it seems that gvmt was pushing for ONLY EV sales by 2030 or 2035...

But some of us were skeptical... it now seems that the big auto makers are also getting skeptical... some are starting to go the way of Toyota, producing hybrids.... which a bunch here said was more practical...

....I am not at all anti-EV. I just don't think they're ready for prime time.

I think that EVs as a primary car will be a hard sell until the recharging technology and infrastructure is built out so one can travel on long 1,000+ mile cross country trips as conveniently as one can in an ICE car... though I concede that is a chicken/egg type of problem.

We recently took delivery of our first hybrid, a Ford Maverick XLT FWD. Sticker says 40 city/33 highway. From Vermont to Florida we averaged 31 mpg but were cruising at 75 mph most of the time... if I had been running 70 mph I suspect that I would have been at the 33 highway. In mixed driving around town I get 42 mpg, a little better than the sticker.

Greenhouse gas emmisions are 7 on a scale of 10, and are 15% and 25% lower than the average car or light truck, respectively.

Until the charging infrastructure is developed so you can charge up in 15 minutes or so, so it is competitive to an ICE car, I think EV sales will struggle but hybrids are a good interim solution.

That said, when I was working an EV would have worked fine for a second car to commute to work or errands around town as long as I remembered to plug in an recharge every night.

I was curious how a shift to all hybrid vehicles would impact climate change and found this from Bard:

How much would going to all hybrid vehicles help reduce greenhouse gasses?

Replacing all gasoline-powered vehicles with hybrid vehicles could reduce greenhouse gas emissions by a significant amount. According to the International Council on Clean Transportation, hybrid vehicles emit about 25% less greenhouse gas emissions than gasoline-powered vehicles.

If all gasoline-powered vehicles in the United States were replaced with hybrid vehicles, it could reduce greenhouse gas emissions by about 270 million metric tons of carbon dioxide equivalent (CO2e) per year. This is equivalent to taking about 58 million cars off the road.

Of course, this is just an estimate. The actual amount of greenhouse gas emissions that could be reduced would depend on a number of factors, such as the type of hybrid vehicle that is used and the way that people drive.

However, even if the actual reduction in greenhouse gas emissions is lower than this estimate, it is clear that switching to hybrid vehicles could be a significant step towards reducing climate change. ...

 

[Badger]

+1 I'm sure there's been some improvements, but it sure seems slow coming and seems to have been this way since all this started from my POV. Maybe in another 10 years, but by then, I probably won't care.

Since I have a 2020 Santa Fe with 16k miles the state will probably take away my license before it needs to be replaced. In 10 more years I shouldn't have more than 65k miles. By then I will be well into my mid 80s if I live that long. They may have self-driving cars that are safe by then whether gas, electric, or some other fuel. Otherwise it really isn't an issue for me.

Cheers!

 

[Closet_Gamer]

Early adopters are more willing to accept the compromises. And there are compromises as it is today.

I think this is the core of the situation. EVs are great for some people and the long drive compromises don't outweigh the every day benefits (and feeling good about the environment.)

We are almost ready to get an EV, but we're firmly in the camp of being able to afford the entry price and we wil keep 2 ICE vehicles along with it. One SUV for long hauls and my Boxster ... because its a Boxster.

DW will likely pull the trigger on something nice with a 250 mile range in Q1. Its actually a really good time to buy an EV as the inventory builds are starting to really put pressures on prices. Six months ago you hand to wait in a long line to get an EV. Right now its closer to just picking one and driving off.

I do think EVs are here to stay and will scale. Infrastructure will chase demand. I notice nearly 50% of the homes in our neighborhood now have Generac generators. The utility makes everyone get inspected and checks gas capacity to the area before they are permitted. I can't imagine that 10 years ago there was enough gas capacity to run all those generators. But even complex infrastructure does evolve with demand.

Some major breakthrough in green hydrogen power may turn EVs into betamax players, but I doubt it.