Aging and guardianship

[Mr._Graybeard]

The Washington Post has an interesting story today.
https://wapo.st/3QKaUKS

 

[LateToFIRE]

Thanks for the relevant article - a summary would help draw attention to the topic:

Court-appointed guardianship, an arrangement created to protect vulnerable people including the elderly has been widely criticized for inviting abuse and theft. Local judges give extraordinary power to guardians, including access to the bank accounts, ability to sell assets such as home, despite a lack of effective ways to monitor them. When excessive billing, missing money and other abuses are discovered, guardians are rarely punished.

In my experience, this is but one of the multi-billion dollar industries that exist to separate vulnerable elderly retirees from their hard-earned savings and assets, sometimes operating in the gray areas of the law, oftewn operating illegally right out in the open. Law enforcement and attorney generals seem to have very little interest.

Without a plan and eagle-eyed family monitoring them, many elderly will ultimately suffer financial abuse. Seriously, I wish I was exaggerating, but I'm not.

 

[GenXguy]

I've seen stories about this happening to healthy elderly couples living at home on their own. Someone seeks to find elderly people that have a lot of assets, and they go through the steps to take over the couple and everything they own through guardianship.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

Thanks for the relevant article - a summary would help draw attention to the topic:

Court-appointed guardianship, an arrangement created to protect vulnerable people including the elderly has been widely criticized for inviting abuse and theft. Local judges give extraordinary power to guardians, including access to the bank accounts, ability to sell assets such as home, despite a lack of effective ways to monitor them. When excessive billing, missing money and other abuses are discovered, guardians are rarely punished.

In my experience, this is but one of the multi-billion dollar industries that exist to separate vulnerable elderly retirees from their hard-earned savings and assets, sometimes operating in the gray areas of the law, oftewn operating illegally right out in the open. Law enforcement and attorney generals seem to have very little interest.

Without a plan and eagle-eyed family monitoring them, many elderly will ultimately suffer financial abuse. Seriously, I wish I was exaggerating, but I'm not.

Thanks for following up my link with a summary and your additional info.

 

[Poopycat]

Thank you for posting this article. It terrified me. I worry a lot about my own situation, not married, no kids. I don’t even know where to start when it comes to planning for a situation where I’m incapacitated.

 

[razztazz]

How do Rich people handle it? I'm not talking Bezos, Gates, or DuPont Family rich, but people of means more than a couple million, who end up the last of their tribe. No spouse, no kids (at least none available) no sibs (or they're just as old and incapacitated) Don't tell me there's NO WAY AT ALL to tie this up.

 

[RetiredHappy]

How do Rich people handle it? I'm not talking Bezos, Gates, or DuPont Family rich, but people of means more than a couple million, who end up the last of their tribe. No spouse, no kids (at least none available) no sibs (or they're just as old and incapacitated) Don't tell me there's NO WAY AT ALL to tie this up.

Find a private fudiciary now. There is a list in every state. Interview them and get references and read reviews. In my previous work in the elder care industry, I knew of the really good ones and the really bad ones, and we had worked with several. Name the private fudiciary as having POA for your health and/or financial. We had clients who had a trust attorney to be the financial POA and the private fudiciary for health.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Find a private fudiciary now. There is a list in every state. Interview them and get references and read reviews. In my previous work in the elder care industry, I knew of the really good ones and the really bad ones, and we had worked with several. Name the private fudiciary as having POA for your health and/or financial. We had clients who had a trust attorney to be the financial POA and the private fudiciary for health.

Is that a durable power of attorney and can you specify it only starts if you become incapacitated ?

 

[marko]

Thanks for the relevant article - a summary would help draw attention to the topic:

Court-appointed guardianship, an arrangement created to protect vulnerable people including the elderly has been widely criticized for inviting abuse and theft. Local judges give extraordinary power to guardians, including access to the bank accounts, ability to sell assets such as home, despite a lack of effective ways to monitor them. When excessive billing, missing money and other abuses are discovered, guardians are rarely punished.

This is not true, at least in Massachusetts. I'm my brother's legal guardian. As guardian, I have NO ability to perform any financial transactions whatsoever.

I'm also his legal Conservator which DOES allow me to manage his finances. But it's entirely different and separate from a guardianship. Some states do not allow one person to be both but Massachusetts does.

However as Conservator, each year I must submit to the court a very detailed accounting of his finances including every last dime he spends, even if it's for a cup of coffee. I must submit any stock sales or purchases, his net worth inventory, income and so on as well as any notable changes. I would need court permission to sell his house.

The numbers had better line up!

The court reviews these and then sends me a notification of approval.

Thank God I have automated most of it but the tallying still takes a half hour a week.

 

[marko]

How do Rich people handle it? I'm not talking Bezos, Gates, or DuPont Family rich, but people of means more than a couple million, who end up the last of their tribe. No spouse, no kids (at least none available) no sibs (or they're just as old and incapacitated) Don't tell me there's NO WAY AT ALL to tie this up.

We've set up a series of trusts. Not only for ourselves but for my disabled ( deemed incompetent) brother who is worth several million on his own.

The trusts qive specific instructions on how to manage things, ongoing care for my brother, discharging assets, who is "in charge", who is next in line of authority and who to contact in the event of one or both of us depart suddenly.

While we have no children (and my brother and I are the last of the line), there's several nieces and nephews on DWs side who would take over in the case of iincapcitation. A few of them are now attorneys themselves.

 

[DrRoy]

I saw that story and cringed. I'm glad we have adult sons and are not in the same situation. I agree that some arrangement should be set up ahead of time.

 

[razztazz]

We've set up a series of trusts. ......

The trusts qive specific instructions on how to manage things, ongoing care for my brother, discharging assets, who is "in charge", who is next in line of authority and who to contact in the event of one or both of us depart suddenly.

While we have no children (and my brother and I are the last of the line), there's several nieces and nephews on DWs side who would take over in the case of iincapcitation. A few of them are now attorneys themselves.

I think the problem highlighted by the article is: When there is No One Else. I could set up a trust but who's the person who makes decisions? Responsible and proper decisions in my interest?

 

[Car-Guy]

Court-appointed guardianship, an arrangement created to protect vulnerable people including the elderly has been widely criticized for inviting abuse and theft. Local judges give extraordinary power to guardians, including access to the bank accounts, ability to sell assets such as home, despite a lack of effective ways to monitor them. When excessive billing, missing money and other abuses are discovered, guardians are rarely punished.

There is a special place in hell for these slime bags.

 

[pb4uski]

This is not true, at least in Massachusetts. I'm my brother's legal guardian. As guardian, I have NO ability to perform any financial transactions whatsoever.

I'm also his legal Conservator which DOES allow me to manage his finances. But it's entirely different and separate from a guardianship. Some states do not allow one person to be both but Massachusetts does.

However as Conservator, each year I must submit to the court a very detailed accounting of his finances including every last dime he spends, even if it's for a cup of coffee. I must submit any stock sales or purchases, his net worth inventory, income and so on as well as any notable changes. I would need court permission to sell his house.

The numbers had better line up!

The court reviews these and then sends me a notification of approval.

Thank God I have automated most of it but the tallying still takes a half hour a week.

While what you wrote is consistent with my experience being a court appointed guardian on two different occasions, once for my great-aunt and the other for my grandmother, but it wouldn't surprise me that a lot slips through the cracks and never gets followed up on or punished where malfesances are identified.

Luckily no real estate involved in either case but when I was appointed I was required to provided a comprehensive balance sheet and later an explanation of income and how all monies were spent. In both cases they passed and I executed their estate.

The approach that worked in both those cases was for the family to find a trusted person who had the time and didn't need or want their money and didn't have any skin in the game (yours truly), but that isn't often possible.

I wonder if a bank trust department might be able to serve this function. I'm not sure how well regulated they are. I would be dubious of any individuals, including (or perhaps particularly) lawyers.

In the case of my great aunt while it was mostly a labor of love I did charge a modest fee since I was doing a lot of work, mostly at the request of one of her principal heirs (my aunt). In the case of my grandmother, I didn't charge anything but may aunts and uncle insisted that I take $x from the pot and then distribute the rest to them.

 

[MichaelB]

There is a special place in hell for these slime bags.

I agree

 

[ShadowBloom]

Thank you for posting this article. It terrified me. I worry a lot about my own situation, not married, no kids. I don’t even know where to start when it comes to planning for a situation where I’m incapacitated.

I'm in a similar situation. I do have nieces/nephews, but I don't know that I would be able to rely on them. I'm wondering if entering a CCRC once I hit my 70s would alleviate these concerns.

 

[Teacher Terry]

If I am remembering correctly some of the most horrific abuses occurred in Nevada and specifically in Clark county. One couple had a daughter who was helping her parents but the guardian got away with stealing the couple’s property and money and by the time it was done the parents had to move into the daughter’s small house.

The couple wasn’t well off but must have had enough equity in the house to make it worthwhile. I think this was one of the couple’s in the movie.

 

[LateToFIRE]

This is not true, at least in Massachusetts. I'm my brother's legal guardian. As guardian, I have NO ability to perform any financial transactions whatsoever.

I'm also his legal Conservator which DOES allow me to manage his finances. But it's entirely different and separate from a guardianship. Some states do not allow one person to be both but Massachusetts does.

However as Conservator, each year I must submit to the court a very detailed accounting of his finances including every last dime he spends, even if it's for a cup of coffee. I must submit any stock sales or purchases, his net worth inventory, income and so on as well as any notable changes. I would need court permission to sell his house.

The numbers had better line up!

The court reviews these and then sends me a notification of approval.

Thank God I have automated most of it but the tallying still takes a half hour a week.

Good to hear. The article seemed to zero in on a particularly nasty Florida example, and probate courts operate at the state/county level, so probably varies greatly.

 

[GenXguy]

If I am remembering correctly some of the most horrific abuses occurred in Nevada and specifically in Clark county. One couple had a daughter who was helping her parents but the guardian got away with stealing the couple’s property and money and by the time it was done the parents had to move into the daughter’s small house.

The couple wasn’t well off but must have had enough equity in the house to make it worthwhile. I think this was one of the couple’s in the movie.

I think I recall seeing a video about that. I am not familiar with what movie you are referring to.

I saw one story where someone found out about an elderly person having a lot of assets and a prospective guardian tried to get the elderly person's doctor to sign off on guardianship. The doctor wouldn't do it because he knew the elderly person didn't need guardianship, so they just went to another doctor who signed off on it.

 

[CincyDave]

I remember seeing a movie about this. Not a true story but entertaining. I Care a Lot

 

[RetiredHappy]

Is that a durable power of attorney and can you specify it only starts if you become incapacitated ?

All POAs are only in effect when you become incapacitated

 

[Teacher Terry]

Retired Happy, I bought a durable POA and the paperwork says it’s effective as soon as you sign it and has warnings about it. I just googled Nevada guardianship laws and because of April Parks the law was changed in 2017.

Now as soon as someone files a guardianship petition the court appoints and pays for the lawyer whose job is to solely represent their client. Now 25% of petitions in Clark county are denied since the law took effect. Clark county was where most of the abuse occurred.

 

[Amethyst]

Is that a durable power of attorney and can you specify it only starts if you become incapacitated ?

Depends on your state. In Florida, once you name a POA, that person is empowered immediately, until you revoke it. There is no "only after I am disabled." Better trust your POA!

 

[Teacher Terry]

I remember seeing a movie about this. Not a true story but entertaining. I Care a Lot

That movie was based on the true story of April Parks who was a professional guardian and basically stealing everything from seniors by going to court In Clark county Nevada and getting guardianship over people without their knowledge. I also think others were involved such as judges and lawyers. I read the stories and they are heartbreaking.

Luckily Nevada changed their laws to prevent this from happening and I read that depending on the state this could happen to people in states with insufficient laws to prevent this.

 

[SJhawkins]

I remember seeing a movie about this. Not a true story but entertaining. I Care a Lot

When I read the first post this movie came to my mind too https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9893250/