Aging and guardianship

[RetiredHappy]

Retired Happy, I bought a durable POA and the paperwork says it’s effective as soon as you sign it and has warnings about it. I just googled Nevada guardianship laws and because of April Parks the law was changed in 2017.

Now as soon as someone files a guardianship petition the court appoints and pays for the lawyer whose job is to solely represent their client. Now 25% of petitions in Clark county are denied since the law took effect. Clark county was where most of the abuse occurred.

I have no experience in Nevada but my experience is based in California. We use Advance Health Care Directive to name durable POA. Basically "Advance" is for the future. Only when the person is incapacitated, does the POA take over.

 

[RetiredHappy]

https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/adva...-care-planning-advance-directives-health-care

Advance directives are legal documents that provide instructions for medical care and only go into effect if you cannot communicate your own wishes.

The two most common advance directives for health care are the living will and the durable power of attorney for health care.

Living will: A living will is a legal document that tells doctors how you want to be treated if you cannot make your own decisions about emergency treatment. In a living will, you can say which common medical treatments or care you would want, which ones you would want to avoid, and under which conditions each of your choices applies. Learn more about preparing a living will.

Durable power of attorney for health care: A durable power of attorney for health care is a legal document that names your health care proxy, a person who can make health care decisions for you if you are unable to communicate these yourself. Your proxy, also known as a representative, surrogate, or agent, should be familiar with your values and wishes. A proxy can be chosen in addition to or instead of a living will. Having a health care proxy helps you plan for situations that cannot be foreseen, such as a serious car accident or stroke.

Learn more about choosing a health care proxy.

Think of your advance directives as living documents that you review at least once each year and update if a major life event occurs such as retirement, moving out of state, or a significant change in your health.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I have no experience in Nevada but my experience is based in California. We use Advance Health Care Directive to name durable POA. Basically "Advance" is for the future. Only when the person is incapacitated, does the POA take over.

I have had the healthcare POA for years. I was talking about a durable POA which allows someone to handle all your financial affairs.

 

[RetiredHappy]

I have had the healthcare POA for years. I was talking about a durable POA which allows someone to handle all your financial affairs.

I also have one for financial POA. I am travelling and won't be back for a few more days. When I go back, I will see what it is called.

 

[JBTX]

This is not true, at least in Massachusetts. I'm my brother's legal guardian. As guardian, I have NO ability to perform any financial transactions whatsoever.

I'm also his legal Conservator which DOES allow me to manage his finances. But it's entirely different and separate from a guardianship. Some states do not allow one person to be both but Massachusetts does.

However as Conservator, each year I must submit to the court a very detailed accounting of his finances including every last dime he spends, even if it's for a cup of coffee. I must submit any stock sales or purchases, his net worth inventory, income and so on as well as any notable changes. I would need court permission to sell his house.

The numbers had better line up!

The court reviews these and then sends me a notification of approval.

Thank God I have automated most of it but the tallying still takes a half hour a week.

The terms guardianship and conservatorship have different meanings in different states. If you look at FL guardianship is the appropriate term with broad control and conservatorship is for people that are missing

https://www.schwartz-white.com/diff...more control,not medical and personal affairs.

I know in TX guardianship for adults gives the guardian financial and other life decision authority.

In some states guardianship is a term used for minors and conservatorship for adults.

 

[YVRRocketSurgery]

Somewhat scary and disturbing article. My takeaways and thoughts:

You have to help yourself and do estate planning. Get your documents and plans in place. Identify key people. Etc.

The "professional" guardianship gig as described in the article sounds so sketchy. It sounds like it needs to be more regulated, it needs to have some kind of fiduciary duty obligation, and it needs oversight. The jobs that popped into my head while reading the article were financial advisors (not all) who are more interested in lining their pockets and home inspectors who can do an online course and call themselves certified.

That said, I can also appreciate that being a guardian for or somewhat superficially looking after someone (or many people) you do not know can be very challenging. You likely only have x amount of time to dedicate without looking like you're trying to overbill. So you're likely only able or willing to get outcomes that are satifactory versus the absolute best.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I was a guardian for a good friend of mine who got Alzheimer’s and her husband was dying from cancer. Her step kids didn’t want to be her guardians and neither did any of her lifelong friends. We had met at work and were friends for 10 years. I knew if she was a ward of the state they wouldn’t monitor her care and wouldn’t care what happened to her.

I had to place her in a memory care facility that she could afford and it was a hour each way. I drove weekly to visit her even when she didn’t know who I was. It was a ton of work to keep on top of her medications, the facility, etc. When her condition deteriorated her fees doubled so I had to get her on Medicaid.

Then her cancer returned and I put her on hospice and had to fire one for blatantly disregarding that I told them what medication not to give her because of the horrendous side effects and they did it anyways. I did find a better one. It was a ton of work that I did for free because it’s what I would hope someone would do for me in that situation. I hope I never have to do it again.

 

[tmm99]

Thanks for the article. This story reminds me of the film, I Care a Lot. If you haven't watched it yet, I recommend it highly. This must happen a lot.

EDIT: Sorry, it looks like someone else already mentioned this. I initially thought the film was called I Do Care a Lot, and did a search and didn't see any posts with this title, so I posted my post.

 

[MarieIG]

Documents can have different names in different states. It is my understanding (which may or may not be correct) in NY the Power of Attorney was for financial decisions and became effective when properly executed/ notarized. My real estate attorney prepared a POA for DH to sign as he was not present for the sale of our home. (I had them prepare an extra one for me - not limited to real estate transactions to keep on file.) The health care proxy allowed the appointment of an agent to address heath care decisions in the event the person was unable to make their own decision. (The incapacity could be temporary, i.e. someone is in surgery.) The living will outlines the person's wishes as to treatment options under particular circumstances.

 

[ychuck46]

In my experience, this is but one of the multi-billion dollar industries that exist to separate vulnerable elderly retirees from their hard-earned savings and assets, sometimes operating in the gray areas of the law, often operating illegally right out in the open.

Couldn't agree more. Elder abuse in any way, shape, or form is one of those things that sets me off. That includes financial "advisors" who churn accounts for commissions, scam marketers, and yes, the area of guardianship of the elderly. I have been fighting such activities where I could for years now and as I approach 70 I will continue to do the same, for others and possibly for myself down the road.

 

[Poopycat]

I'm in a similar situation. I do have nieces/nephews, but I don't know that I would be able to rely on them. I'm wondering if entering a CCRC once I hit my 70s would alleviate these concerns.

Yes, I’m wondering the same thing.

 

[Rusa]

Teacher Terry, you are an angel. Only those of us who have done this understand how much work and effort and dedication are involved (I was responsible for my mother under similar circumstances).

 

[Koolau]

I've seen stories about this happening to healthy elderly couples living at home on their own. Someone seeks to find elderly people that have a lot of assets, and they go through the steps to take over the couple and everything they own through guardianship.

I would assume that the person(s) being "guarded" would be included in any proceedings if they were physically able to do so. BIL got guardianship over MIL in her waning days. I don't know if he took any advantage of her or not, but he arranged for her to be taken care of in a nursing facility and paid all her bills. She could no longer do that and got into serious problems (car insurance and DL lapsed - got pulled over. BIL was former cop and got her out of it. Probably final impetus to go for guardianship.)

She was at the proceedings in which guardianship was granted to BIL and was asked if she objected. She did not object, so it was pretty much an easy process once past the paper-work. I don't see how "normal" people would be subject to guardianship by outsiders with an agenda. Mentally aware people should be informed and could respond if someone sought guardianship over them, right?

 

[Amethyst]

The plotline of "I Care A Lot" is that a somewhat faltering (but not demented), obviously well-to-do woman, who appears to have no one looking out for her, falls victim to an unscrupulous guardian, aided by crooked doctors and judges, who get kickbacks from an elder care facility. Once captive in the facility, the victim is given drugs which make it hard for her to think straight.

An examining doctor notes the woman's apparent frailty and alone-ness, and tips off the guardian, who sets everything else in motion. The judge doesn't even see the victim, just looks at the doctor's report and speaks to the guardian.

The movie's based on real life events.

I I don't see how "normal" people would be subject to guardianship by outsiders with an agenda. Mentally aware people should be informed and could respond if someone sought guardianship over them, right?

 

[Koolau]

The plotline of "I Care A Lot" is that a somewhat faltering (but not demented), obviously well-to-do woman, who appears to have no one looking out for her, falls victim to an unscrupulous guardian, aided by crooked doctors and judges, who get kickbacks from an elder care facility. Once captive in the facility, the victim is given drugs which make it hard for her to think straight.

An examining doctor notes the woman's apparent frailty and alone-ness, and tips off the guardian, who sets everything else in motion. The judge doesn't even see the victim, just looks at the doctor's report and speaks to the guardian.

The movie's based on real life events.

I don't know the "real life events" on which the story was based, but I would guess in real life:

Anyone in almost any legal procedure MUST be represented either by their own council OR an ad litim council or by themselves. If by themselves, it must be a freely chosen course of action by the person being evaluated in a proceeding.

Since in the proceeding I witnessed, my MIL did not oppose the guardianship, and she chose to represent herself and she WAS heard on the matter in court. Had she simply said "I contest this action" that would have halted everything and begun essentially a court hearing in which evidence would have been presented. Because she did not contest, the matter was quickly settled. Otherwise, her various doctors would have been sworn and would have testified. She would have been able to present testimony of other witnesses to her competence.

Collusion is not unheard of in the justice system, but it's relatively rare as it takes a lot of people to collude - even in a simple procedure. It would require at least one colluding judge, one colluding plaintiff, one colluding plaintiff's attorney, one colluding witness (like a doctor) and one colluding attorney for the person being evaluated.

I too would be concerned about someone seeking guardianship over me, but I don't think it's as easy as picking an old guy like me and going behind my back with some paperw*rk. I WOULD be contacted and made aware. I WOULD have opportunity to retain council. I WOULD be allowed to have my own witnesses (like a different doctor(s).) I WOULD be heard in court. Anyone with enough resources to be a target also has enough resources to fight guardianship. YMMV

 

[pb4uski]

Couldn't agree more. Elder abuse in any way, shape, or form is one of those things that sets me off. That includes financial "advisors" who churn accounts for commissions, scam marketers, and yes, the area of guardianship of the elderly. ...

+1 In my family, and I suspect others, it is best if a trusted member of the family with the requisite skills is available, and importantly, is wealthy and doesn't need the money so is doing it as a labor of love.

I feel blessed to be in that position and now that I am retired had the time to be guardian for a great-aunt and later executor and ditto for my gradmother, and manage a commercial buiding and portfolio for my 93yo DM, helping a friend with his retirement portfolio, etc.

 

[Koolau]

We handled both my parents affairs through POAs. We got them established before they became too demented to grant that power. It can be a good way to go in many cases - especially when your parents have trust in you.


I agree with pb4uski that it is a real blessing to help family members in their final years. I never received any compensation nor did I want any. It was a labor of love.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I don't know the "real life events" on which the story was based, but I would guess in real life:

Anyone in almost any legal procedure MUST be represented either by their own council OR an ad litim council or by themselves. If by themselves, it must be a freely chosen course of action by the person being evaluated in a proceeding.

Since in the proceeding I witnessed, my MIL did not oppose the guardianship, and she chose to represent herself and she WAS heard on the matter in court. Had she simply said "I contest this action" that would have halted everything and begun essentially a court hearing in which evidence would have been presented. Because she did not contest, the matter was quickly settled. Otherwise, her various doctors would have been sworn and would have testified. She would have been able to present testimony of other witnesses to her competence.

Collusion is not unheard of in the justice system, but it's relatively rare as it takes a lot of people to collude - even in a simple procedure. It would require at least one colluding judge, one colluding plaintiff, one colluding plaintiff's attorney, one colluding witness (like a doctor) and one colluding attorney for the person being evaluated.

I too would be concerned about someone seeking guardianship over me, but I don't think it's as easy as picking an old guy like me and going behind my back with some paperw*rk. I WOULD be contacted and made aware. I WOULD have opportunity to retain council. I WOULD be allowed to have my own witnesses (like a different doctor(s).) I WOULD be heard in court. Anyone with enough resources to be a target also has enough resources to fight guardianship. YMMV

Actually the people that this happened to in Las Vegas didn’t know about it until the guardian and police came knocking on their door. They were showed the court documents and were taken to a facility. It was a couple that didn’t have anything wrong with them. Their bank accounts were seized and their house sold.

By the time their daughter got the guardianship revoked a couple of years had passed and all their money was gone. They ended up having to live with their daughter because all they had left was SS. I didn’t believe it at first but it happened to many people in Vegas which is why Nevada changed their laws.

 

[Koolau]

Actually the people that this happened to in Las Vegas didn’t know about it until the guardian and police came knocking on their door. They were showed the court documents and were taken to a facility. It was a couple that didn’t have anything wrong with them. Their bank accounts were seized and their house sold.

By the time their daughter got the guardianship revoked a couple of years had passed and all their money was gone. They ended up having to live with their daughter because all they had left was SS. I didn’t believe it at first but it happened to many people in Vegas which is why Nevada changed their laws.

There was pretty clearly malpractice in there some place. It should be actionable - and recoverable.

 

[Teacher Terry]

There was pretty clearly malpractice in there some place. It should be actionable - and recoverable.

The parents don’t have any money for a lawyer and neither does the daughter. A lawyer would have to take it on contingency. This was not an isolated incident in Las Vegas and happened to a fair number of people who never had a day in court before losing everything. Thankfully Nevada changed their laws so that this doesn’t continue. I actually didn’t believe it the first time I read about it.

 

[Amethyst]

If it's the April Parks case that appeared in the New Yorker, the couple as described were actually a bit ding-y, but they were still living contentedly, not in danger of harming selves or others. As I recall, the decision that they were not fully competent was made by a doctor - and no one even asked if they had children. The scheme only works if the victims can be hustled into a facility without delay.

The couple were totally sandbagged by the appearance of "authorities" who told them to pack. The evildoers rely on older people's tendency to cave to demands of authority figures (although goodness knows what would have happened if they'd put up any resistance).

Things got even worse when the guardian found out the couple didn't have enough money for the "nice" facility, and hustled them into a much cheaper one. This was before the daughter got involved. Imagine if there were no daughter.

Actually the people that this happened to in Las Vegas didn’t know about it until the guardian and police came knocking on their door. They were showed the court documents and were taken to a facility. It was a couple that didn’t have anything wrong with them. .

 

[GenXguy]

If it's the April Parks case that appeared in the New Yorker, the couple as described were actually a bit ding-y, but they were still living contentedly, not in danger of harming selves or others. As I recall, the decision that they were not fully competent was made by a doctor - and no one even asked if they had children. The scheme only works if the victims can be hustled into a facility without delay.

The couple were totally sandbagged by the appearance of "authorities" who told them to pack. The evildoers rely on older people's tendency to cave to demands of authority figures (although goodness knows what would have happened if they'd put up any resistance). .

I think by then it was too late, the guardianship was already active. And that wasn't an isolated case. There were hundreds or more. They just find a doctor that will sign off, maybe give a kick-back, when they hear about some older people that have some assets - doesn't matter how sharp they might be.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I didn’t remember the exact details because I read about it quite awhile ago but it was frightening.

 

[FindingForward]

So does anyone know if there are still states with very weak or zero protections where the same thing could easily happen as it did in Nevada (before they changed their laws?)

 

[meierlde]

Actually the people that this happened to in Las Vegas didn’t know about it until the guardian and police came knocking on their door. They were showed the court documents and were taken to a facility. It was a couple that didn’t have anything wrong with them. Their bank accounts were seized and their house sold.

By the time their daughter got the guardianship revoked a couple of years had passed and all their money was gone. They ended up having to live with their daughter because all they had left was SS. I didn’t believe it at first but it happened to many people in Vegas which is why Nevada changed their laws.

Actually this has happened in many states, my aunt who lived in Nebraska, had a court appoint guardian clean her out (including selling the house etc).

Now another possiblity to handle this is to set up a trust and appoint a bank as the trustee to take care of financial matters, My grandparents did this, and it made my parents job much easier.