As Things Reopen I am Voting With my Purse

[MichaelB]

Gee.....I'm so sorry my post was not meaningful or even newsworthy.This makes me sad
Some of the points addressed, while not in the guidelines themselves, were guideline interpretations and examples given by members of the Governor's staff when asked by members of the media.
I listened to the entire news briefing. Did you?

Enough snark, ok? My use of “meaningful” was clearly directed at the example of talk radio, not your post.

My post addressed the regulations as they have been published, which is what will (or should be) enforced. How these are interpreted later on provides input to the endless squabbles, misunderstanding, and differences of opinion, such as the one we are having.

 

[John Galt III]

I don't object to wearing a mask indoors when shopping.....BUT......what do you think of this?

My state will allow restaurants to have outdoor sitdown seating starting May 18.
But here are just a few of the restrictions:


5) You will be encouraged to pay by credit card since cash is "dirty." I guess greater chance of Covid on cash than a cc?


The restaurant owners were on the local talk radio today absolutely blasting our Governor.

Yep. Gotta get that cashless society thing going, so we can all be tracked. For your own good, of course.

 

[Winemaker]

Too bad one person's caution is another person's idea of fear, along a continuum...

Who is not being cautious? I wear a mask when I go into grocer or HD store.

There are 129 cases in my county, 4 deaths since January, in a county of 200,000. Increased testing is showing more cases and the death rate is going down. I am able to look at data and make an informed decision, like most of you.

https://www.apmresearchlab.org/covid/deaths-by-race

While unfortunate for others, my race group has had less deaths/1000.


https://patch.com/pennsylvania/across-pa/2-3-pa-coronavirus-deaths-nursing-homes-county-breakdown

Again, very unfortunate for some, I am still living in my own home with DW. We know of nobody in our circle of relatives, friends, tenants, vendors, vineyard owners, grocery store clerks that we ask, nurses, health care workers, police and firemen, who has gotten sick or knows of anybody getting sick. These folks live in PA, FL, CA, CO and OH.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/health/coronavirus-patients-risk.html


Again, I have been blessed with good health, despite w*rking in coal mines for 35 years, and DW in K-12 schools. 88% of hospitalized cases in NY anyhow, are those with diabetes, obesity, and hypertension. My blood pressure has been 130/90 since I was in high school when it was flagged for concern during a USAFA physical. I have been medicated for it once I turned 50, but it still runs about 130/90 or less now.

https://www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditions/heart/Pages/Kawasaki-Disease.aspx



The latest fear mongering is that Corona causes a Kawasaki syndrome disease or similiar type disease, that effects children. Kawasaki has been around since 1976, discovered in Kawasaki Japan (can I say that?) and is non infectious. Again it is unfortunate, but to put the image of dying children dropping over from aneurysms on every street corner in our heads, is wrong.

There are folks that are buying gallons of bleach, hand sanitizer, and alcohol to sanitize stuff around the house. If you're not leaving the house, it doesn't make sense. It is a corona virus, it has a mushy oily fluid "nucleus" that dissolves in soap and water. There are NO reported cases of transmission via a package, carton, or envelope; my mail lady, and my UPS driver, know of no cases, and I haven't heard of any mass infections of those workers.
We keep moving the goal posts. Flatten the curve to prevent hospital overrun, get more testing done. Then it was limit the spread. Then it was more accurate testing, then once we found out more folks had it and didn't know it, now we have to have a antibody test. Then it was we can open as long as cases are declining, well as more people are tested more people have shown they have/had it, and hospital rates are going down. Death rates are going down overall, but on Tuesdays they spike up to count those over the weekend because the bean counters don't "work" weekends.

https://www.medicaleconomics.com/ar...s-all-covid-19-testing-treatment-will-be-free

The incentive to count all deaths AS the cause of death instead of WITH corona is purely monetary.

Now, we want NO re openings until we get a cure or vaccine. That's not going to happen for a long time. The WHO, who I trust like some politicians, says corona virus will be here for 5 more years, until it runs it's course. I'm almost 62, my life expectancy is ~77, I'm not going to hide in my house for the remaining third of my life. No, investing 5 years in my basement is not a premium for the next ten years.



Grocery stores in my area are fully stocked except for the short time that toilet paper, bleach, and paper towels, when hoarding was going on. Ground beef is being rationed to prevent a run/shortage and the local butchers are booked until August. If the talking heads on TV would warn of a ketchup shortage, I'm sure one would start the next day. There is too much fear promoted and not enough common sense.

My friend who owns 2 car dealerships, and the three that owns restaurants, 2 that own local distilleries, and the winery where I help out at, are operating at 15-20%. It is devastating for them and their employees. No one in a nursing home is going to buy a car, or have it serviced, go to a restaurant, or to a tasting room. There is no reason why hair styling/ nail salon can't be open, with masks and proper sanitation.

Go ahead with your criticisms of me; for 35 years I got paid pretty damn good for my thoughts, and perceptions despite taking numerous arrows along the way.

 

[Turbo29]

who is not being cautious? I wear a mask when i go into grocer or hd store.

There are 129 cases in my county, 4 deaths since january, in a county of 200,000. Increased testing is showing more cases and the death rate is going down. I am able to look at data and make an informed decision, like most of you.

https://www.apmresearchlab.org/covid/deaths-by-race

while unfortunate for others, my race group has had less deaths/1000.


https://patch.com/pennsylvania/across-pa/2-3-pa-coronavirus-deaths-nursing-homes-county-breakdown

again, very unfortunate for some, i am still living in my own home with dw. We know of nobody in our circle of relatives, friends, tenants, vendors, vineyard owners, grocery store clerks that we ask, nurses, health care workers, police and firemen, who has gotten sick or knows of anybody getting sick. These folks live in pa, fl, ca, co and oh.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/health/coronavirus-patients-risk.html


again, i have been blessed with good health, despite w*rking in coal mines for 35 years, and dw in k-12 schools. 88% of hospitalized cases in ny anyhow, are those with diabetes, obesity, and hypertension. My blood pressure has been 130/90 since i was in high school when it was flagged for concern during a usafa physical. I have been medicated for it once i turned 50, but it still runs about 130/90 or less now.

https://www.healthychildren.org/english/health-issues/conditions/heart/pages/kawasaki-disease.aspx



the latest fear mongering is that corona causes a kawasaki syndrome disease or similiar type disease, that effects children. Kawasaki has been around since 1976, discovered in kawasaki japan (can i say that?) and is non infectious. Again it is unfortunate, but to put the image of dying children dropping over from aneurysms on every street corner in our heads, is wrong.

There are folks that are buying gallons of bleach, hand sanitizer, and alcohol to sanitize stuff around the house. If you're not leaving the house, it doesn't make sense. It is a corona virus, it has a mushy oily fluid "nucleus" that dissolves in soap and water. There are no reported cases of transmission via a package, carton, or envelope; my mail lady, and my ups driver, know of no cases, and i haven't heard of any mass infections of those workers.
We keep moving the goal posts. Flatten the curve to prevent hospital overrun, get more testing done. Then it was limit the spread. Then it was more accurate testing, then once we found out more folks had it and didn't know it, now we have to have a antibody test. Then it was we can open as long as cases are declining, well as more people are tested more people have shown they have/had it, and hospital rates are going down. Death rates are going down overall, but on tuesdays they spike up to count those over the weekend because the bean counters don't "work" weekends.

https://www.medicaleconomics.com/ar...s-all-covid-19-testing-treatment-will-be-free

the incentive to count all deaths as the cause of death instead of with corona is purely monetary.

Now, we want no re openings until we get a cure or vaccine. That's not going to happen for a long time. The who, who i trust like some politicians, says corona virus will be here for 5 more years, until it runs it's course. I'm almost 62, my life expectancy is ~77, i'm not going to hide in my house for the remaining third of my life. No, investing 5 years in my basement is not a premium for the next ten years.



Grocery stores in my area are fully stocked except for the short time that toilet paper, bleach, and paper towels, when hoarding was going on. Ground beef is being rationed to prevent a run/shortage and the local butchers are booked until august. If the talking heads on tv would warn of a ketchup shortage, i'm sure one would start the next day. There is too much fear promoted and not enough common sense.

My friend who owns 2 car dealerships, and the three that owns restaurants, 2 that own local distilleries, and the winery where i help out at, are operating at 15-20%. It is devastating for them and their employees. No one in a nursing home is going to buy a car, or have it serviced, go to a restaurant, or to a tasting room. There is no reason why hair styling/ nail salon can't be open, with masks and proper sanitation.

Go ahead with your criticisms of me; for 35 years i got paid pretty damn good for my thoughts, and perceptions despite taking numerous arrows along the way.

+1000000

 

[gwraigty]

Who is not being cautious? I wear a mask when I go into grocer or HD store.

There are 129 cases in my county, 4 deaths since January, in a county of 200,000. Increased testing is showing more cases and the death rate is going down. I am able to look at data and make an informed decision, like most of you.

https://www.apmresearchlab.org/covid/deaths-by-race

While unfortunate for others, my race group has had less deaths/1000.


https://patch.com/pennsylvania/across-pa/2-3-pa-coronavirus-deaths-nursing-homes-county-breakdown

Again, very unfortunate for some, I am still living in my own home with DW. We know of nobody in our circle of relatives, friends, tenants, vendors, vineyard owners, grocery store clerks that we ask, nurses, health care workers, police and firemen, who has gotten sick or knows of anybody getting sick. These folks live in PA, FL, CA, CO and OH.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/health/coronavirus-patients-risk.html


Again, I have been blessed with good health, despite w*rking in coal mines for 35 years, and DW in K-12 schools. 88% of hospitalized cases in NY anyhow, are those with diabetes, obesity, and hypertension. My blood pressure has been 130/90 since I was in high school when it was flagged for concern during a USAFA physical. I have been medicated for it once I turned 50, but it still runs about 130/90 or less now.

https://www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditions/heart/Pages/Kawasaki-Disease.aspx



The latest fear mongering is that Corona causes a Kawasaki syndrome disease or similiar type disease, that effects children. Kawasaki has been around since 1976, discovered in Kawasaki Japan (can I say that?) and is non infectious. Again it is unfortunate, but to put the image of dying children dropping over from aneurysms on every street corner in our heads, is wrong.

There are folks that are buying gallons of bleach, hand sanitizer, and alcohol to sanitize stuff around the house. If you're not leaving the house, it doesn't make sense. It is a corona virus, it has a mushy oily fluid "nucleus" that dissolves in soap and water. There are NO reported cases of transmission via a package, carton, or envelope; my mail lady, and my UPS driver, know of no cases, and I haven't heard of any mass infections of those workers.
We keep moving the goal posts. Flatten the curve to prevent hospital overrun, get more testing done. Then it was limit the spread. Then it was more accurate testing, then once we found out more folks had it and didn't know it, now we have to have a antibody test. Then it was we can open as long as cases are declining, well as more people are tested more people have shown they have/had it, and hospital rates are going down. Death rates are going down overall, but on Tuesdays they spike up to count those over the weekend because the bean counters don't "work" weekends.

https://www.medicaleconomics.com/ar...s-all-covid-19-testing-treatment-will-be-free

The incentive to count all deaths AS the cause of death instead of WITH corona is purely monetary.

Now, we want NO re openings until we get a cure or vaccine. That's not going to happen for a long time. The WHO, who I trust like some politicians, says corona virus will be here for 5 more years, until it runs it's course. I'm almost 62, my life expectancy is ~77, I'm not going to hide in my house for the remaining third of my life. No, investing 5 years in my basement is not a premium for the next ten years.



Grocery stores in my area are fully stocked except for the short time that toilet paper, bleach, and paper towels, when hoarding was going on. Ground beef is being rationed to prevent a run/shortage and the local butchers are booked until August. If the talking heads on TV would warn of a ketchup shortage, I'm sure one would start the next day. There is too much fear promoted and not enough common sense.

My friend who owns 2 car dealerships, and the three that owns restaurants, 2 that own local distilleries, and the winery where I help out at, are operating at 15-20%. It is devastating for them and their employees. No one in a nursing home is going to buy a car, or have it serviced, go to a restaurant, or to a tasting room. There is no reason why hair styling/ nail salon can't be open, with masks and proper sanitation.

Go ahead with your criticisms of me; for 35 years I got paid pretty damn good for my thoughts, and perceptions despite taking numerous arrows along the way.

So much good stuff, thank you for saying it. I'll just comment on the bolded parts.

Kudos to you for your continued good health! My great grandfather worked in the coal mines in Wales. He came to the USA and the family eventually settled in Scranton, PA where he continued to work in the coal mines there, along with a lot of other Welsh immigrants. The work did him in though. He died of black lung in his 40s.

Dr. Scott Gottlieb said something to the effect that correlation hasn't been significantly proven yet as to why the children are falling ill. The good news is that they say it's extremely rare and children are responding well to the same treatment used for Kawasaki syndrome. I can relate to parental fear. Long story short, DS got so sick from a particularly bad virus when he was in 3rd grade that I thought I was going to lose him. He had a fever of 105 F. According to the ER personnel who treated him, this virus was only affecting children across the country and some were dying of it. We had an extremely rough couple of weeks there, but I guarantee 99.99% of the population knew nothing about this virus because it never made the news.

I told DH the other day that I've been cleaning certain areas of the house less, not out of laziness, but out of concern over the consistently empty shelves where the cleaning supplies should be. I want bleach for my white laundry once in awhile, not to disinfect everything else to death. We wash our hands when we return home and before touching food. No one drinks out of the toilet, but even toilet bowl cleaner can be hard to come by. Now that paper towels have been available regularly, maybe I'll feel like I can wash my windows this year, both house and car.

Now some guy named Dr. Rick Bright says that we're not going to have a vaccine in 18 months. Or it may not be effective. Or it's going to be in short supply because of supply chain issues, like needles, etc. Some are trying to discredit him and question his motivations, but I do believe it's quite likely there will be supply chain issues. We've been dealing with that problem all along.

I believe that DH would be quite happy for a ketchup shortage because he hates the stuff. However, he doesn't complain when I makes sauces out of it.

In reading a lot of commentary from various sources, it appears that many people who want things locked down indefinitely do not depend on having to work for a living to be able to eat and keep a roof over their heads. For a limited time recently, I had access to the electronic edition of my local paper. The letters to the editor section is represented on both sides: this guy wants businesses to remain shut down, that guy wants businesses to open back up. I looked up the names on the letters. Without fail, every person who wrote that businesses should remain shut down, is in their 70s and 80s. I find the same split in comments on local and state news pages on Facebook. Maybe if the government took away their pensions and Social Security for a few months, the gravity of the consequences of remaining shut down might hit home. After all, a lot of money has not been paid into Social Security, Medicare, and pension funds for the past couple of months.

But it's not just retired people who think everything should remain locked down. I've seen some comments from younger locals that make me wonder how they manage to get out of bed each morning without hurting themselves. A SAHM with 2 kids with autoimmune disorders wanted her husband to quit his manufacturing job instead of going back to work after a brief shut down. No job, no income, no unemployment for quitting, yes, things could get much worse. Rhetorical questions, but do some people not realize that it is (or was once) the ability of someone in the household to work that puts food on the table? 36.5 million currently unemployed people haven't forgotten. Or maybe some of them are learning it for the first time. I wonder if I overestimate the basics of what people should understand. I saw a comment today from a man who said he doesn't understand why people have to get back to work because all debts are frozen.

 

[harllee]

Winemaker (good name!) I am the OP of this thread --you are very fortunate that you do not know anyone who is sick with Covid-19. In my county with about 150,000 residents we have 35 deaths already from Covid-19. I know several people with Covid 19 who have mild symptoms and I personally know 3 people who have been very sick:

1. An elderly acquaintance who died a few weeks ago from Covid-19
2. A friend in NY state, age around 50 with no known health problems who was very sick with Covid 19. He is recovering but has lung problems, which may turn out to be permanent, he can barely walk across the room without being short of breath.
3. A very good friend's daughter in law is right now very sick in hospital ICU with Covid-19. She is in her 40s with 3 small children. She is overweight but to my knowledge no other health problems.

Those who do not know anyone sick and dying with the virus yet are very fortunate.

So I am grieving for my friends everyday who are sick and dying. So I am going to continue to be very cautious and concerned.

 

[Chuckanut]

Rhetorical questions, but do some people not realize that it is (or was once) the ability of someone in the household to work that puts food on the table? 36.5 million currently unemployed people haven't forgotten.

I agree, and in fact would go further. Many people don't seem to realize that a strong functioning economy is what we need to provide the resources necesary to keep our hospitals equipped with things like ventilators and PPE gear. We need resources to invest in finding medicines and a vaccine. We need people working so they do not become depressed and end up committing suicide, falling victim to addictive temptations, and not being able to afford basic things like good hygiene, preventive care, etc.

People like me (older thus higher risk and living in more densely populated areas) may have to be more cautious for a few months, maybe a year or more. So be it. If I have to avoid my local caffè during the busiest hours, I will. If I stay away from airplanes, trains and sports arenas for a year or two, that's OK also. I can take my chances if I wish. But, I think most of us given the choice, will choose to be cautious. (I don't want the next edition of The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity featuring me as an example!) It's a small price to pay to insure the the well being of me, my loved ones and my community.

We need political leaders who can balance the pluses and minuses, and at least give us a good honest effort to find the best balance between the two. Sadly, this may be the hardest need to fulfill.

 

[harllee]

OP here, I feel for all the small businesses that are struggling. But one question that I have is why did these small businesses not have a cash reserve to tide them over for at least 6 months? I was a successful self employed person with my own small business (that enabled me to retire at age 50) and I always had at least 6 to 12 months cash reserve (in fact my banker required that I have such a reserve). There are always things that happen to a small business--recessions, fires, weather, sickness, and now the pandemic. I am amazed to find out that many small businesses in my area (especially restaurants and salons) did not even have enough cash reserves to pay their bills for one month. This is just not good business. I am sure that many of those folks are not going to be able to open their businesses again but when you operate on a shoe string any small blip in the road will do you in.

 

[gwraigty]

OP here, I feel for all the small businesses that are struggling. But one question that I have is why did these small businesses not have a cash reserve to tide them over for at least 6 months? I was a successful self employed person with my own small business (that enabled me to retire at age 50) and I always had at least 6 to 12 months cash reserve (in fact my banker required that I have such a reserve). There are always things that happen to a small business--recessions, fires, weather, sickness, and now the pandemic. I am amazed to find out that many small businesses in my area (especially restaurants and salons) did not even have enough cash reserves to pay their bills for one month. This is just not good business. I am sure that many of those folks are not going to be able to open their businesses again but when you operate on a shoe string any small blip in the road will do you in.

You've asked this before. Do you not realize that the majority of people operate on a shoe string? There is plenty of available news about this. They live from check to check. That includes many people who should be able to put something aside because they're not being paid poverty wages. People run small businesses, big businesses, and they're in government, too. Hah! Same thing there, right?

We're an elite group here and we wouldn't think it's OK or operate this way. But it pays to understand how the rest of the world thinks and operates because we all have to share the same planet.

 

[Winemaker]

Harlee, there is nothing wrong about being cautious. I was cautious every day for myself and cautious for the 120+ people that worked me in a coal mine. There are(were) hazardous to be alarmed about everywhere, but if you look at the basic safety training, they took care of themselves. What I can't fathom is the fear that people have. Turn off the TV, people! Enough of the handwringing! We know that there is increasing unemployment because we chose to not work! We know that certain areas are going to be short on certain meat products because the plant that services your area is down because of an employee outbreak. It's not an national problem until you tell the little old lady in NY that there's no ground beef ever to be had, when it's the plant that services WA and OR. Wear a mask, wash your hands often, don't pick your nose, and carry on!
Using harmful chemicals (bleach), is a bit of an overkill unless you running an Uber service. If you are buying products and leaving them in your garage for two weeks, you didn't need them, are contributing to the run on certain items and help creating the shortages. If you have health issues, you have no business sitting in a jet propelled aluminum tube with 2-300 other people. We used to quarantine the sick to keep them from spreading sickness, now we're quarantining the healthy, the sick, and the maybe sick. No wonder certain folks are taking a break from what are usually pretty interesting subjects that deal with retirement here.

 

[Speed Racer]

Outdoor dining is opening up in Ohio today. I'm itching to go out to eat, but will probably sit this weekend out. Next weekend indoor dining opens up and I plan to go to my favorite restaurant. Gyms open up in a couple weeks, but not sure I feel comfortable going there yet.

 

[Golden sunsets]

I go to stores that I like, no matter whether they require customers to wear a mask or not. But I always wear a mask when I go out in public. To me, wearing a mask is so simple and such a low price to pay to keep infection numbers down and the economy moving that I don't understand why so many people object to it.

Hooray for you FIRED. Well said.

 

[harllee]

OP here. Wow there are a lot of angry people on this thread today. I am staying out of the way of the angry people.

I have just given all my stimulus money to local charities helping food banks and children so I feel better.

I am still voting with my purse and not giving my money to businesses where I feel unsafe.

 

[Golden sunsets]

What you posted is different from the instructions at the link, and the differences are meaningful. Restaurant guidance here https://www.reopeningri.com/resource_pdfs/RI-Restaurant_Guidance_Phase-I- 05.11.20.pdf

Nothing about being on time or losing the reservation.
Right
The requirement is for the restaurant to retain for 30 days contact info (phone number) of the person making the reservation. Nothing more.
The link says mask when social distancing is not possible. If you are sitting outdoors and the table satisfies the distance requirement, the patrons should have no need to wear mask.
Nothing new here.
There is nothing about this in the link or phase 1 guidance.

The purpose of talk radio is to generate outrage, so this is not meaningful or even newsworthy.

Thanks Michael B for correction of the poster's misinterpretations.

 

[fh2000]

We used to quarantine the sick to keep them from spreading sickness, now we're quarantining the healthy, the sick, and the maybe sick. No wonder certain folks are taking a break from what are usually pretty interesting subjects that deal with retirement here.

In 2003 when SARS broke out, they identified that the contagious period for each patient is when they started to have a fever. The thermometer gun was particularly helpful on detecting who is sick.

Earlier when COVID-19 started to spread, they thought it was the same thing, and started to use thermometer gun only to find out later that the sick may be asymptomatic. This creates a much bigger problem. You do not know who is actually sick with COVID-19 and do not know specifically who should be quarantined.

 

[gwraigty]

Outdoor dining is opening up in Ohio today. I'm itching to go out to eat, but will probably sit this weekend out. Next weekend indoor dining opens up and I plan to go to my favorite restaurant. Gyms open up in a couple weeks, but not sure I feel comfortable going there yet.

I don't think many people in my area took advantage of this today. It's been pouring rain with scattered thunderstorms most of the day. Tomorrow the weather is supposed to be better.

 

[gwraigty]

OP here. Wow there are a lot of angry people on this thread today. I am staying out of the way of the angry people.

I have just given all my stimulus money to local charities helping food banks and children so I feel better.

I am still voting with my purse and not giving my money to businesses where I feel unsafe.

 

[Turbo29]

Several Indian casinos reopened today. A friend of mine went to one of them and reported that it was "packed." (I guess people were voting to empty their purses.) Only ~1/2 of the patrons were wearing masks.

 

[neihn]

Several Indian casinos reopened today. A friend of mine went to one of them and reported that it was "packed." (I guess people were voting to empty their purses.) Only ~1/2 of the patrons were wearing masks.

Wow. I am speechless. Didn't they know that all those fancy buildings were built with their generous contributions.

 

[Winemaker]

Harlee, I'm not angry. I'm just trying to talk common sense. Live and let live! If you have health issues and feel threatened , stay home and let the rest of us live our lives. If you are asymptomatic, then I hope you wear a mask in public as to not possibly infect others. If you have symptoms, stay the hell home. If you are healthy, not in contact with contagious persons, then wear a mask and go as you please. I am not going to get infected, hiking in the mountains of Wyoming if I don't wear a mask. Nor am I going to get infected if I go to my local grocery store and pick up a loaf of bread, a gallon of milk, or 6 rolls of toilet paper. Enough! Wear a mask, wash your hands if you go out, and live your life. If a vaccine is never found, we have just lost 9 weeks to gain herd immunity. It ain't polio, it ain't the black plague, you are not going to have your arms fall off, and you're not going to bleed out of your ears, eyes, and nose.

 

[Alan]

Thanks for the interesting discussion but the thread is now getting very personal, so we have decided that it is time to close it.