Auto repair under recall...whoops it isn't - WWYD?

[SecondCor521]

Hi all.

We're checking with attorneys but also asking here for opinions and thoughts.

My son bought a PHEV last fall. Over the past two months, it started to have an intermittent charging problem which was becoming more and more frequent.

He took it to the dealership in our city. The dealership diagnosed the problem and said it was covered under a recall, to which my son assented.

A few days later they asked where the car was registered, and my son told them it was registered in Idaho. They then said that the recall only applied to cars registered in certain states not including Idaho. Therefore the repair would be $3K.

My son then said he wanted additional information from the dealership repair tech as to the likelihood of it fixing the problem. At this point the dealership said that it would fix the problem...because they had already done the work to his car.

All of this is memorialized in text messages.

Things that seem to be true:

1. It doesn't look like the dealership can put a mechanic's lien on his car because they didn't have him sign a written estimate.

2. The dealership is a well respected member of the local community. In fact, it's part of a dealership chain from which I and my father both have bought cars, including the one I drive now.

3. That being said, the current situation where they're asking him to pay $3K after the work was done strikes us as, uh, either slimy or incompetent or both. We're not sure if this affects just this service tech, or the service department, or the whole dealership.

4. A city police officer said they would not get involved over the repair bill because that would be a civil situation. But it does look like if the dealership refused to let my son take his car that would be grand theft on their part.

5. As you can probably tell, I've got my hackles up about this ("papa bear"). I do recognize intellectually that it's probably best to resolve this as amicably as possible without getting taken advantage of. I'll probably cool off as time passes.

6. Small claims limit in Idaho is $5K. (Car is worth maybe $15K; repair bill request is $3K.)

7. Not sure if it matters, but I am unable to find any relevant recall notice for his car for this type of problem on nhtsa.gov.

General advice and thoughts on how to proceed are welcome.

 

[Jerry1]

I’d get in touch with the manufacturer and verify the story. I’ve never heard of a recall being based on where a vehicle is registered. Dealerships I’ve dealt with have a regional manager that is a liaison between the dealer and the manufacturer. Also, the dealership should have the ability to print out the recall where you can confirm the exact language of the recall.

It might not have been a formal recall. Maybe just an agreement with certain state attorney generals - or something like that.

What exactly did the write on the service sheet when they took in the vehicle? I’ve never had a service where the dealer didn’t make me sign off on expected repairs. If they took the vehicle in under a recall and found out that it wasn’t covered, the should have contacted you before proceeding.

What a mess. Good luck.

 

[ERD50]

... If they took the vehicle in under a recall and found out that it wasn’t covered, the should have contacted you before proceeding. ...

Agreed. The service center screwed up. They told you covered, you didn't go in and tell them it was covered. So they screwed up. They needed to inform you of any charges *before* they did the work. You did not authorize a $3,000 repair. They need to eat it.

How to get there politely, and no drama? That could be tough, but I'd start with a calm discussion of "these are the facts, do we agree?".

And does the sales contract arbitration rules come into play, or does small claims court get around that?

-ERD50

 

[SecondCor521]

^ @Jerry1 thanks for the reply.

Yeah, the more I think about it a regional recall makes little to no sense.

It's a 2014 Chevy Volt, and the problem appears to be somewhere in the battery charging system. I believe California was one of the covered states.

I don't know what they wrote on the service sheet. I suspect, but don't know, that they just wrote down the symptoms (slow charging, error code P0AF8, check engine light, refuse to start) and probably just something about diagnosing the issue for $195 diagnosis fee.

From what I gather, everything subsequent to the car being dropped off was done via text message, including the conversation about the actual problem and the recall.

 

[DJRR]

Hmmm. Fail to see how where a vehicle is registered can impact a recall. Maybe an AG got a settlement for specific states? Otherwise, I would think it would have to be where it was sold or manufactured. Registrations don't impact the physical vehicle.

Consumer protections are pretty solid for auto repairs. Without a signed authorization to do the diagnostic and an agreement to proceed with work for a quoted price I don't see the dealer having any recourse. Your son acted on good faith based on the dealer representations. Seems like a dealer issue with the OEM if anything.

If you want to be a nice guy and the mistake is legit then you could offer to pay the cost for parts or promise to buy your next new car from the dealer or trade a partial payment for lifetime oil changes and state inspections or something. No way would I ever give them $3k. I would expect an honest dealer to apologize and give me a discount on future service or promise me a "deal" on my next car just to keep me coming back and telling my friends that they are a great dealer. Honestly the bad press is not worth the cost to them either.

 

[SecondCor521]

^ @ERD50, thanks for the reply.

He actually bought the car second hand from a used car dealer in a nearby city, not the dealership. This being his first car repair issue, he had a couple of learning experiences taking it to a general repair shop who promised they could fix it but couldn't. Long story short, after having his car needing repair for several weeks, he finally decided to take it to the dealership just to ensure that someone knowledgeable could fix it.

So basically there's no other relationship with this dealership other than the current recall/repair.

On small claims, the main question is whether paying the $3K bill then suing weakens his position somehow. Guess that's a question for the lawyer.

The "no drama they eat it" is both the desired state and the essence of the challenge. My son and I both probably lack certain essential character traits to get there.

 

[SecondCor521]

^ @DJRR, thanks for the reply.

I think part of the concern is that we don't know if the dealer is going to play nice or not. Based on the name on the front, they have a good community rep and I would expect them to. Based on my son's experience with this service tech so far, we would expect not. Maybe the trick is to start down the path hoping for a "play nice" outcome first and see what happens.

Also hard to tell if the mistake is "legit" or "scammy". My son does clearly give off the vibe of novice car owner (because he is) so they could be trying to see if they can take advantage of him.

 

[DJRR]

I think part of the concern is that we don't know if the dealer is going to play nice or not. Based on the name on the front, they have a good community rep and I would expect them to. Based on my son's experience with this service tech so far, we would expect not. Maybe the trick is to start down the path hoping for a "play nice" outcome first and see what happens.

Also hard to tell if the mistake is "legit" or "scammy". My son does clearly give off the vibe of novice car owner (because he is) so they could be trying to see if they can take advantage of him.

Yeah, I think you need to talk to the owner/manager. In my neck of the woods recalls are verified through the VIN # in the computer so I would think an issue would pop out before the work was done. If I had to guess the tech was lazy and did the work before the paperwork and found out too late that it was not covered for that specific vehicle. Now he is just trying to CYA. Maybe he gets paid piece work and the money comes out of his check. I think it is clearly his mistake and therefore as an agent of the dealership their mistake. How they handle it internally should not matter to your son. Hate to see someone get fired, but that's life. If they like him they can retrain, if it is a pattern then you might save the dealership more in the long run.

 

[SecondCor521]

Yeah, I think you need to talk to the owner/manager. In my neck of the woods recalls are verified through the VIN # in the computer so I would think an issue would pop out before the work was done. If I had to guess the tech was lazy and did the work before the paperwork and found out too late that it was not covered for that specific vehicle. Now he is just trying to CYA. Maybe he gets paid piece work and the money comes out of his check. I think it is clearly his mistake and therefore as an agent of the dealership their mistake. How they handle it internally should not matter to your son. Hate to see someone get fired, but that's life. If they like him they can retrain, if it is a pattern then you might save the dealership more in the long run.

Yeah, it's probably something along those lines.

The good thing I realized is that my son is actually a very good negotiator when he has all the facts at hand and is aware of the overall landscape.

Overall I think he can go in in a conciliatory way, keeping in mind that a $3K mistake to the service tech might be a big deal but to the overall dealership is probably a drop in the bucket. It's a big dealership - probably hundreds of new cars on the lot and a busy service department, so annual revenues have to be in the (total SWAG) tens of millions or more.

 

[Telly]

I’d get in touch with the manufacturer and verify the story. I’ve never heard of a recall being based on where a vehicle is registered...

Very common, has been going on for years. I don't agree with it at all!
All sorts of cold weather problems, rusting of frame members, etc. etc. are limited to certain bands of states depending on the issue.
An example - Undercarriage rusting recalls usually limited to states that use road salt.

Like I said, I don't agree with it at all.

 

[ivinsfan]

Would your boy have agreed to the 3k repair if he had known from the get go? In my mind that's the important question. Either he would have said no the car isn't worth spending 3k on or he would have gulped hard and paid the bill. He didn't get to make that decision due to poor information from the dealer people make mistakes it happens.

 

[SecondCor521]

Would your boy have agreed to the 3k repair if he had known from the get go? In my mind that's the important question. Either he would have said no the car isn't worth spending 3k on or he would have gulped hard and paid the bill. He didn't get to make that decision due to poor information from the dealer people make mistakes it happens.

Hard to say. When he was informed it wasn't covered under the recall and would cost $3K, what I know is that he had asked for more information from the dealer on the likelihood that the repair would fix the problem. He might have further decided to shop the repair around, or ask about a less expensive repair option other than what the recall recommended.

I believe he said tonight when we were talking about it that the $3K number seemed very pricy. It seems on the high side but I don't know how much of the charging system they replaced.

I did point out to him that the fact that they repaired his car (or at least are saying they did; the problem is intermittent so he won't know for a week or two if it's truly fixed) is worth something and they did do the work. I think there is some reasonable number, but without more info hard to say what that number is.

 

[JoeWras]

There are true NHTSA recalls, and then there are quiet manufacturer extended warranties. Not sure which this is.

Recalls can be regional. The most famous is the air bag recall. I think the Feds knew they had to recall every vehicle, but that was impossible so they started in regions, eventually splitting it in three zones, and getting all the cars phased in over time.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/takata-air-bags/takata-recall-expansion-what-consumers-need-know

 

[Aerides]

Does your son have it well documented that this was covered? If so, put all that in an email to the GM of the dealership.

Does your son have the car back now?

 

[ERD50]

Would your boy have agreed to the 3k repair if he had known from the get go? In my mind that's the important question. Either he would have said no the car isn't worth spending 3k on or he would have gulped hard and paid the bill. He didn't get to make that decision due to poor information from the dealer people make mistakes it happens.

NO - I don't agree with that at all!

The normal order of events is to give the customer an estimate of the cost, and then let the customer agree or not agree.

The customer agreed based on a $0 covered recall. Sure, why not agree?

To be hit up with a $3K bill after the fact is just plain wrong, all $3K of it. The question is not whether he would have paid if it wasn't covered, or the cost of the parts - the fact is he was told it was covered. If he was told it was not covered, and would be $3K, that's the time to decide if you want to spend $3K for a fix or not. Not after the fact.

"Mistakes happen". Sure, but this mistake is on the dealer or service guy, not the customer. It's up to them to pay, and it's insulting and wrong to expect the customer to pay for the dealer mistake.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Does your son have it well documented that this was covered? If so, put all that in an email to the GM of the dealership. ...

Agreed, so far, this seems a bit fuzzy. It needs to be locked down.

-ERD50

 

[RetiredAndLovingIt]

Check the Chevy Volt Forums for the error codes/customer experience.

 

[Aerides]

OP is in Boise - and son is also in Boise since you mention "our city"?

Soooo...he goes to a dealer in Idaho for a repair.
Dealer says this issue will be solved under a recall-covered repair, son says ok cool.
Dealer calls later, says oops not actually covered in Idaho - the state we are in (that seems crazy stupid of them)
Son says...well then before I decide if I want to go ahead either way, does this really fix my issue?
Dealer says...uh well we already did it give us money

Got that about right?

I do think your son should have pressed for more on the recall info. My immediate reaction would have been...Really? I wonder why I didn't hear anything, I usually get notices on recalls. But aside from that, what exactly happened after, and what is in writing here?

 

[SecondCor521]

Update:

We went to the dealership this morning. Per my son's decision, I was present but in the background. I mostly managed to bite my tongue; when I interjected my son was OK with it mostly I think.

The part that failed and was replaced was the battery charger. One of these:
https://www.autonationparts.com/oem-parts/gm-hybrid-drive-motor-battery-pack-charger-24276662

My son was able to talk with the EV tech who did the work. After the conversation my son believed that the tech did a good job of diagnosing and repairing the issue.

He also talked with the service representative with whom he had been texting and learned some things.

First, it's a warranty thing, not a recall thing. California and some other states have laws requiring manufacturers to provide warranties on electric vehicles up to, in the case of my son's car, 10 years or 150K miles. (My son's car is 9 years old with 110K miles.)

Second, my son's car was apparently originally registered in California. The dealership warranty service person gave a warranty person at GM the VIN and the latter told the former that the car had an active PZEV warranty. Presumably this was because GM didn't yet know that the car had ended up in Idaho. The service representative gave my son a printout of the exchange of messages, and it seems quite clear that the dealer was relying on the GM warranty person's representations, which seems reasonable.

My son decided to pay the dealership the full amount (about $2700 actually, about half parts and half labor) since they did the work, made reasonable decisions (including relying on GM about the warranty status), and the car appears to be fixed properly.

He is now going to mull over whether or not to pursue something with GM, either a courtesy warranty coverage or in small claims. Even though he agreed with me that he might have a better chance asking the dealership for consideration, he is taking the principled approach that it was GM that screwed up, not the dealer.

He's assessing what his damages are though. Perhaps he would have paid the diagnosis charge of ~$200 and taken the car to another place to get the work done more cheaply, so his damages are probably the difference in price minus ~$200. It is a specialized sort of repair because there are diagnostic tools to run on that part of the car that are specific to an EV, and then the part apparently needs to be programmed, which I'm sure is another specialized tool. Probably only dealerships would have these tools.

I'm guessing his damages are only in the $1K range, which may or may not be enough to him to proceed.

Thanks again to everyone for the thoughts and comments. Apologies for the misunderstanding/misrepresentation that it was a recall rather than a warranty thing.

@Aerides, at the point where they said "warranty", my son was glad it was a free repair and was trusting the dealership to know their stuff.

 

[JoeWras]

Thank you for the update. He should pursue goodwill with GM, maybe 1/2?

They need to give out all the goodwill they can.

Honestly, after reading about some of the other charges I'm seeing from dealers for simple brake jobs ($1500 is typical), this ain't too bad.

I've been preaching on other threads about the cost of repairs. People who replace vehicles every 3 years have no idea. I may join that crowd because it is actually becoming cost effective.

 

[Aerides]

The price for the repair sounds about right. But your dealer proceeded with work without a signed estimate, and still handed over the bill? They have a lot of fault there IMO.

 

[ERD50]

The price for the repair sounds about right. But your dealer proceeded with work without a signed estimate, and still handed over the bill? They have a lot of fault there IMO.

Agreed, but when we talk about real damages, (if I'm following), the son would have had to pay for a repair. Yes, dealer screwed up with the information, but in the end it comes out of son's wallet, so nothing really changed (other than some emotional stress) - though he would have had the option to shop the repair around, and *maybe* got it cheaper.

IMO, dealer should do something for him. Not sure what, but something. Free oil changes for life (just kidding!)?

Hmmm, son could shop around, and ask dealer to pay the difference if he finds it cheaper, and maybe a few $ for the hassle?

-ERD50

 

[DJRR]

Update:

My son was able to talk with the EV tech who did the work. After the conversation my son believed that the tech did a good job of diagnosing and repairing the issue.

My son decided to pay the dealership the full amount (about $2700 actually, about half parts and half labor) since they did the work, made reasonable decisions (including relying on GM about the warranty status), and the car appears to be fixed properly.

Your son is entirely too mature. Watch him

 

[SecondCor521]

Agreed, but when we talk about real damages, (if I'm following), the son would have had to pay for a repair. Yes, dealer screwed up with the information, but in the end it comes out of son's wallet, so nothing really changed (other than some emotional stress) - though he would have had the option to shop the repair around, and *maybe* got it cheaper.

IMO, dealer should do something for him. Not sure what, but something. Free oil changes for life (just kidding!)?

Hmmm, son could shop around, and ask dealer to pay the difference if he finds it cheaper, and maybe a few $ for the hassle?

-ERD50

Right. To be fair, my son would have to imagine what he would have done had GM said "no warranty" and dealer said "recommended fix is $2.7K, what do you want to do"?

He thinks he would have still gone ahead with the fix, but he may have shopped it to other nearby dealers, and would have owed the original dealer a $200 diagnostic fee. Net he might have saved $800 or $1K.

I doubt one could argue much for emotional damages or hassle factor; in fact they ultimately saved him the hassle of shopping around and moving the car to the second, hypothetical, cheaper dealer.

Your son is entirely too mature. Watch him

Thanks for the kind words! He's a great young man and is doing very well for himself. Double majored in supply chain and IT, works for a good local tech firm getting regular raises and bonuses, owns his own car outright, bought a brand new home a few months ago with 20% down, and still saves quite a bit of his income.

Big picture, this $1K of potential damages would be nice and is probably worth a well written letter, but it is in the end a small bump in the road for him.

 

[ivinsfan]

NO - I don't agree with that at all!

The normal order of events is to give the customer an estimate of the cost, and then let the customer agree or not agree.

The customer agreed based on a $0 covered recall. Sure, why not agree?

To be hit up with a $3K bill after the fact is just plain wrong, all $3K of it. The question is not whether he would have paid if it wasn't covered, or the cost of the parts - the fact is he was told it was covered. If he was told it was not covered, and would be $3K, that's the time to decide if you want to spend $3K for a fix or not. Not after the fact.

"Mistakes happen". Sure, but this mistake is on the dealer or service guy, not the customer. It's up to them to pay, and it's insulting and wrong to expect the customer to pay for the dealer mistake.

-ERD50

It's OK if you disagree but after almost 50 years in a business where this can happen it's not so black and white to me. We've been on both ends and usually something can be worked out. First of all I'll assume this wasn't deliberate on the dealer or workers part. Absolutely he should have been told first but sometime sh$% happens.