Career: how to get where I want to be?

[Mr._johngalt]

A lot of people here talk of specialized skills to make you valuable, but I'm in IT, and today's specialist is tomorrows obsolete laid off worker.  I have supported desktops, servers, networks, Windows, Unix, Irix, linux, email, Novell, etc.etc.,and I too have seen jobs outsourced and made obsolete.  That's why I moved into computer security.  Kind of hard to outsource that in my industry.  My two bits is work on your people/communication skills.  Your ability to communicate with management and customers what they want to hear, and to exude confidence, will make you a valued employee with a future.  I'm more than happy to spin off my skills/knowledge to others, rather than hold on to it jealously.  My attitude is, "hey, what's next?".  It's my ability to problem solve, and manage a project from beginning to end that makes me valuable, not any particular piece of knowledge.  But hey, I may just be riding a wave of confidence, as I just completed a high profile rescue of a remote site, thrilled the customer, got offered a job, got asked to come in for a second interview on another job, and got a personal call from my current employer's big cheese stating, "my contributions have not gone unnoticed".  So yeah, feeling a little fat and happy right now. 

Reminds me of the last woman I dated before DW and I hooked up. She opined that I was wonderful, terrific,
had everything she wanted in a man. Positively gushy.
Then she says, "I'm busy for the next 2 weeks, please
call me then." I didn't and we never saw each other
again. Moral? Don't get too "fat and happy" no matter
how much praise is piled on.

JG

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

To paraphrase some of the recent posters..."talk is cheap."  I spent 5 years slaving away for a large law firm, putting in long, long, long hours doing high-level legal work.  I received plenty of "atta boys" and "great jobs", as well as the occasional "I mentioned your hard work to [BIG CHEESE] the other day during the partner meeting".

What did all that get me?  NOTHING.

A great book I read a few years ago (and own a copy of but haven't had a chance to re-read recently) is "The 48 Laws of Power".  Here are some really relevant ones:

Law 11 -- Learn to Keep People Dependent on You

To maintain your independence you must always be needed and wanted.  The more you are relied on, the more freedom you have.  Make people depend on you for their happiness and prosperity and you have nothing to fear.  Never teach them enough so that they can do without you.

When Asking for Help, Appeal to People’s Self-Interest,

Law 13 -- Never to their Mercy or Gratitude

If you need to turn to an ally for help, do not bother to remind him of your past assistance and good deeds.  He will find a way to ignore you.  Instead, uncover something in your request, or in your alliance with him, that will benefit him, and emphasize it out of all proportion.  He will respond enthusiastically when he sees something to be gained for himself.

Law 30 -- Make your Accomplishments Seem Effortless

Your actions must seem natural and executed with ease.  All the toil and practice that go into them, and also all the clever tricks, must be concealed.  When you act, act effortlessly, as if you could do much more.  Avoid the temptation of revealing how hard you work – it only raises questions.  Teach no one your tricks or they will be used against you.

Law 35 -- Master the Art of Timing

Never seem to be in a hurry – hurrying betrays a lack of control over yourself, and over time.  Always seem patient, as if you know that everything will come to you eventually.  Become a detective of the right moment; sniff out the spirit of the times, the trends that will carry you to power.  Learn to stand back when the time is not yet ripe, and to strike fiercely when it has reached fruition.

I wish I had heeded the foregoing laws earlier, but as they also say..."you live and learn."

 

[wildcat]

Okay good post Jay. Law #11, IMHO, still applies to business professionals. Maybe not tech b/c special skills can become obsolete. Important to be very good at something in your field. Nowadays everyone has similar skills coming out of school so there has to be something that sets you apart.

 

[riskadverse]

More important than an MBA or a specific job.

Do what you think you'll be good at.
Learn to turn down a promotion if you wont be good at the new job. 
Do the best job you can.
Do more than the job requires. 
Treat your employer's money as if it was your own.
Stand up for yourself.
Learn how to invest.
Get lucky.

 

[SteveR]

More important than an MBA or a specific job.

Do what you think you'll be good at. Do what you can make a living at and enjoy for several years.
Learn to turn down a promotion if you wont be good at the new job.  Turn down too many and they stop asking
Do the best job you can. but remember you have a life out of work too
Do more than the job requires. The more you do the more they will ask you to do. While you are busy someone else is has time to schmooze the boss and will get the promotion
Treat your employer's money as if it was your own. That works great until they cut your budget 4 times in one year; then try to do your job!
Stand up for yourself. As long as you don't rock the boat
Learn how to invest. Pay yourself first. This is how you RE
Get lucky. Luck is part of it but so is planning.

Been there, none that and have the T-shirt to prove it.

 

[Caroline]

I spent 5 years slaving away for a large law firm, putting in long, long, long hours doing high-level legal work.  I received plenty of "atta boys" and "great jobs", as well as the occasional "I mentioned your hard work to [BIG CHEESE] the other day during the partner meeting".

What did all that get me?  NOTHING.

I feel your pain, Jay, but I have to disagree with you on one thing -- you DID get something out of that experience - valuable wisdom.

I myself, straight out of business school, worked like the proverbial DOG for my first employer -- got 20% raises, got letters of praise from clients, promotions and new responsibilities, etc. etc.  

New CEO came in, stock went down, "rightsizing" reared its ugly head and Marketing got the axe -- myself included.  I was hurt and enraged at first but I soon realized that they'd done me a VERY big favor.  I no longer think of my employer as "family" I no longer take on new work "because they need me" and I don't take promotions that ask me for 100% more work in exchange for 5% more pay.

You ALSO won't hear me say, as did a colleague and 25-year Megacorp employee, "I want Megacorp to do well and if that means giving back some of my pension, then I guess I'm willing."  Geez Louise!

Unfortunately, you can't get this kind of wisdom by being told -- I see youngsters slaving away here in the belief that the company loves and cares about them.  Caution on the part of us veterans is put down to our being old, slow, and halfway out to pasture.  

They'll learn -- you and I were blessed to get this education early in life -- not by losing our pensions and / or jobs after 25-30 years in harness.

Caroline

 

[retire@40]

Treat your employer's money as if it was your own.

I don't think the employer would like that.  Most people overspend their own money.  It might be better to treat your employer's money like it belongs to the mob.

 

[CyclingInvestor]

Do what you think you'll be good at.

Agreed

Learn to turn down a promotion if you wont be good at the new job.

I have turned down every promotion ever offered me, knowing I am
much happier as a 40 hr IT peon in the low six figures than a 50-80 hr
manager for a few 10K more. This is a very important point most of
my coworkers have missed.

Do the best job you can.

Do a good job, but do not strain yourself. If you are turning
out better work than your immediate coworkers, that is good enough

Do more than the job requires.

See previous response

Treat your employer's money as if it was your own.

I do not think they would like that.

Stand up for yourself.

In IT, I have never found a need to. Your programming
stands up for you.

Learn how to invest.

Most important of all

Get lucky.

Important, but sometimes this drifts by the wayside

 

[ER@40]

A mix of Finance and IT?
Recommend Trading, particularly Interest Rate Derivatives.

A solid mix of IT and Finance, lots of ex engineer types (Nasa/JPL gurus)
MBA optional unless you can find a killer practical course that admirably covers the markets.

 

[laurence]

Be confident in yourself, and act as if you are the CEO of a one person company.

I don't agree with rule 11, as wildcat alluded to, everybody hates an information pig, and the first time they find out what you do/know can be done/known by somebody else, you've made enough enemies at that point to be the next to get the axe. Seen that more than once. It's your skills and talents that make you valuable in the long run. Overall the list is written in just too cynical a manner for me. How hellish would life be if you disdained your coworkers/bosses enough to resort to subterfuge and manipulation to get your way. People can tell when you are in contempt of them.

The company I'm considering going to wants to do a 2 hour interview with 3 people. GEEZ! I'm torn because it looks like my current company is going to let me create my own new position, and while I may only see ~10-15k more staying put vs. 20-25k more moving on (both of which still leave me below a lot of y'all "alphas") the new company will probably want me in a box, so to speak. I know, great problem to have.

 

[Eagle43]

Another Law/Rule: The J. Edgar Hoover Philosophy.

Keep a dirt file. Remember J. Edgar Hoover. LBJ said and meant it, "I'd rather have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in."

 

[Marshac]

I echo every word Caroline wrote here.  I have experienced the same thing with my current employer.  The trend is: outsource to India or China.  .  This trend will continue as those of us who were software developers will most likely morph into system analyst jobs, integrators or technical project managers.

I was at a course on OLAP/MDX, and some of the folks there were MSFT employees (XBOX team) looking to quickly upgrade their skills. Apparently their entire department had just been moved to India, and the only reason why they were still employedis that they were still training their replacements..... how horrible. In terms of 'white collar' work, are there many jobs that are really 'safe' from outsourcing? The large paycheck is a huge incentive to find someone else to do the job for less...

 

[brewer12345]

I was at a course on OLAP/MDX, and some of the folks there were MSFT employees (XBOX team) looking to quickly upgrade their skills. Apparently their entire department had just been moved to India, and the only reason why they were still employedis that they were still training their replacements..... how horrible. In terms of 'white collar' work, are there many jobs that are really 'safe' from outsourcing? The large paycheck is a huge incentive to find someone else to do the job for less...

I suspect that anything that requires face time or a person actually being in a particular place will be very hard to outsource. You can't outsorce a nurse, plumber or a salesman. Pretty much any other time of job could be conceivably outsourced. Having said that, outsourcing happens only when there is a large pool of skilled labor in a low cost area. There are only so many such pools and they will be bid up in price from time to time. There is also the question of how much productivity you give up in exchange for a lower price (unit labor cost).

 

[WanderALot]

Having said that, outsourcing happens only when there is a large pool of skilled labor in a low cost area. There are only so many such pools and they will be bid up in price from time to time. There is also the question of how much productivity you give up in exchange for a lower price (unit labor cost).

A mid-size company that my friend works for has outsourced some jobs to India. He is currently in India working with them. I've had long talks with him about outsourcing and I found one factoid to be particularly interesting. He said that most of the fresh of the college engineers in India are paid a lot less than American engineers. But one they pay their dues and get some experience, the pay goes up a LOT. He was saying that a guy with 10 yrs of experience in India makes at the very least 1/3 of what an American engineer makes and probably more like 1/2. He's also seen quite a few Indians go back to India after being in the US a while.

The gradual increase of wages in India seem to making the news too. I read an article about InfoSys (large Indian software house) which is opening up a design center in China and hiring a bunch of engineers there.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

I think sticking around with megacorp to get the MBA would be a reasonable choice but be warned: Working FT and going to school PT sucks. I've nevver been more exhausted and drained for so many years at a time. You definately get the best return by doing this, but it will cost you in blood sweat and tears.

Yes, brewer12345, I know exactly what you're talking about. Working FT and going to school PT sucks eggs royally. You almost have to be in a position that basically requires only a live body to be able to do the FT work/PT school thing. For the past 8 months, I have been in a fog working as an engineer during the day and studying for my MBA at night two classes a semester.

I'm heavily leaning toward just leaving for a year and finishing the MBA. I have the money, and I think that my sanity is worth sacraficing a few bucks.

BTW, I speak fluent Chinese and English, but when I tried to angle for a job to set up an engineering center in China, I was told that they have enough people with my set of skills. I guess I'll have learn Klingon to make myself my distinct.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

mebbe so, farmerEd - I have no scientific data to go with. Just observations:

My company, "I've Been Mauled" just laid off 13,000 worldwide. This is common knowledge. A little-known additional fact is that they HIRED 14,000 more back -- in India. If you're Indian, high-tech is a GREAT place to be right now.

My compadres, laid off in the past few years, have been out of work for months or years at a time, and when they do go back to work, it's at lower pay and with fewer benefits. I'd move to a smaller and more nimble company in a heartbeat if I could find one that paid anywhere near the salary I've worked up to over the years.

For those of us who have been left after the exodus, work is very trying. Twice as much work, half as many people, and half as much budget to make anything happen. We're also re-orged regularly as management tries to cover more bases with fewer live bodies.

The one good thing -- there's the knowledge that you could be out the door at any minute -- GREAT incentive to LBYM and RE.

FWIW,
Caroline

Hm...13000 fired world wide. This sounds suspiciously like Hewlett Packard.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

A lot of people here talk of specialized skills to make you valuable, but I'm in IT, and today's specialist is tomorrows obsolete laid off worker. I have supported desktops, servers, networks, Windows, Unix, Irix, linux, email, Novell, etc.etc.,and I too have seen jobs outsourced and made obsolete. That's why I moved into computer security. Kind of hard to outsource that in my industry. My two bits is work on your people/communication skills. Your ability to communicate with management and customers what they want to hear, and to exude confidence, will make you a valued employee with a future. I'm more than happy to spin off my skills/knowledge to others, rather than hold on to it jealously. My attitude is, "hey, what's next?". It's my ability to problem solve, and manage a project from beginning to end that makes me valuable, not any particular piece of knowledge. But hey, I may just be riding a wave of confidence, as I just completed a high profile rescue of a remote site, thrilled the customer, got offered a job, got asked to come in for a second interview on another job, and got a personal call from my current employer's big cheese stating, "my contributions have not gone unnoticed". So yeah, feeling a little fat and happy right now.

Sounds like a true veteran of the the tech industry. Yep, to stay in technology you can't simply defend the fort. You almost have to be a bit of an adventurer and have quite a bit of wanderlust (no, not that kind that makes your girlfriend smack you).

I see all too often the fort defenders fighting for the Alamo while I have already high-tailed out the place. Also, the guys who can't or won't share and can't make those around him better aren't the ones who are promoted.

 

[Danny]

...I have supported desktops, servers, networks, Windows, Unix, Irix, linux, email, Novell, etc.etc....I may be riding a wave...or just completed a high profile rescue...

You doing some heavy lifting there...

O Laurence, thou David, thou great-martyr,
Thou mighty warrior and judgment-seat of the Emperor,
Thou didst set at nought the blood-stained hands
Of thy tormentors.
Who with His hand alone can conquer the cruel despot’s strongholds
Thou didst scorn the emblems of the Cæsar, and laugh the judge’s threats to scorn.
Conquered by a broiled fish—
O Laurence, wreathed with laurel amongst warriors,
O martyr and mighty foot-soldier!

No not really....

Regards and good luck..looks like you have upper management or something written all over you...

 

[laurence]

Holy cow, I now can say I've had a sonnet(?) written about me. Soon you'll be able to enter any tavern and hear the bard sing of my adventures.

It's programmers who do the heavy lifting, that stuff splits my head open. Had to just tweak some .xml the other day and almost knocked the monitor in with my head before I got it.

 

[sgeeeee]

. . . Soon you'll be able to enter any tavern and hear the bard sing of my adventures. 

. . .

Eeek. That's enough to make you want to quit drinking.

 

[laurence]

Eeek. That's enough to make you want to quit drinking.

 

[brewer12345]

Yes, brewer12345, I know exactly what you're talking about. Working FT and going to school PT sucks eggs royally. You almost have to be in a position that basically requires only a live body to be able to do the FT work/PT school thing. For the past 8 months, I have been in a fog working as an engineer during the day and studying for my MBA at night two classes a semester.

Heh, I worked FT and most semesters I took three classes. There was a long period where DW and I had to schedule dates on Friday nights because it was the only time we saw each other for more than 15 minutes at a time. She was doing the FT/PT thing too, but took longer to finish her degree at a slower pace.

 

[Caroline]

  From Buns of Veal:  Hm...13000 fired world wide. This sounds suspiciously like Hewlett Packard.

Alas, no, B of V -- big layoffs are still a common occurrence in IT (and elsewhere, these days).  Back in the day a 13K layoff might be rare, or at least uncommon.  Nowadays, we don't even blink.

Back in B-school (back when the earth was cooling  ;-) a rep from Apple computer came in to present.  He was very frank -- "we pay you very well when you work for us -- but when needs of the business dictate, we WILL lay you off."  I thought at the time it was a pretty insecure way to live -- I had yet to realize that what he said applied to the entire industry. 

I don't regret my career -- it's been berry, berry good to me. But those entering this field MUST manage their own career, keep current with changes, and above all else, LBYM so they can weather the inevitable slowdowns.

Caroline

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

Heh, I worked FT and most semesters I took three classes. There was a long period where DW and I had to schedule dates on Friday nights because it was the only time we saw each other for more than 15 minutes at a time. She was doing the FT/PT thing too, but took longer to finish her degree at a slower pace.

Hm...15 minutes is usually all I need for "meetings". Hehe, couldn't pass that one up.

Seriously, my company and the school are in very intimate contact, and neither wants FT employees taking more than two classes a quarter or eight classes a year. Frankly, I'm so exhausted most of the time that the good weeks are when I think I'm going to drop dead only once. The bad weeks, don't even mention those. It's the first time this year that I actually have time to post on this board thanks to a much needed 3 week break.

Caroline, "I Have Been Mauled!" Yeah, I thought about that after I made my conjecture about HP. Then I realized that what you are saying. Hehe, good one.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean by instability. I have lived in 6 states in the last 12 years all thanks to working in the technology field (I'm in IC design). I never dreamed that I would get to see so many places on computer companies' dimes, but then again, I didn't realize I had so many off-plan "benefits".

 

[Nords]

Re: Relax and let the career come to you!

But hey, I may just be riding a wave of confidence, as I just completed a high profile rescue of a remote site, thrilled the customer, got offered a job, got asked to come in for a second interview on another job, and got a personal call from my current employer's big cheese stating, "my contributions have not gone unnoticed". So yeah, feeling a little fat and happy right now.

I'm a little late to this thread, but congrats Laurence!

Two thoughts: first, do you really want to work for a company that needs three people to take two hours to make up their minds about your potential? If that's the way your industry works, well, OK, but I'd sure hate to route an unusual budget request through that bureaucracy. Second, if your contributions are not unnoticed then why are they still unrewarded? That squeaky sound you hear may not be your wheels-- it could be management keeping you fat, dumb, & happy while they're dragging their feet. "Designing your own job description" sounds like the prelude to updating a resume'. Despite my trepidation at a two-hour job interview (unless it also involves frosty beverages) I'd plan to go to the new job. You've given your current/former employer more than enough opportunities to figure out how to do it right, and if they haven't already recognized what you achieved on your Hawaii trip then they're not gonna ever get around to it.

I'm not trying to kill your motivation, but you might enjoy these videos from Intel's UK spoof of IT personnel. I sure hope it's not how your current or future employers view IT department heads.

Agreed, but what is the shortest path to get there? If the energy sector isn't where I want to be, should I start making plans to leave as soon as it's feasible? Even if that means getting an MBA on my own nickel? Or be content to bide my time until the perfect opportunity presents itself?

As for outsourcing and other IT issues...I'm a finance guy who likes technology, not a techie who likes finance.

I've made a career out of killing people & breaking things without ever worrying about profits so I may lack some credibility here-- but geez, Soup, what's your hurry? The shortest path isn't necessarily the best one, let alone the most profitable or most fulfilling.

Here's an analogy. In 1986 Congress passed legislation that required military officers to have a whole bunch of "joint" training & experience before they could be promoted to flag rank. As brand-new O-3s we were almost 25 years away from having to worry about flag rank, let alone joint education, but many immediately started whining maneuvering to get first crack at the new "opportunities". Career-planning seminars immediately degenerated into complaints about how we junior officers needed to get the time to complete the curriculum, get into the right schools, be eligible for the right jobs, and so on.

Finally a senior officer said "Settle down. 'Joint' won't affect your current job descriptions for at least five years. You all need to spend the next few years doing the best you can at the jobs you have now, and let the pendulum swing a few times before you start worrying about the NEXT job." Reverting to Marine Corps terms he said "Be a good grunt." In my case that saved me a whole lotta effort for no perceptible return.

It could be the same in your situation, too. Maybe instead of being so focused on the express lane to your next job it'd be worth spending more time digging into your current one. Joining a professional or community or service association (like the Rotary or Toastmasters) might be a seemingly unrelated career step that'd actually help you broaden your contacts & exposure while seeing others in their career fields. Another poster here recommended becoming the office's Excel & Powerpoint geek so that you're always involved in helping (those who desperately need it) while being able to keep an eye on new projects. You'd need these skills in just about any field, let alone energy, so why not develop them now instead of trying to find the "right career" right away.

As for school & family-- nothing motivates you toward getting those advanced degrees & skills (or advanced whatever) like having a family. Nothing can support you & help you like their love & loyalty, either. Erma Bombeck used to say that people get married so that they can worry about money. It's all too easy to become so focused on getting things done before you acquire family responsibilities that you keep on doing things and somehow never get around to the acquisition step. Achieving goals as a team is what makes the whole family thing worthwhile.

So perhaps your current career/job is a good place to relax, look around at how you can help, network with a group of people that can use your help while exposing you to other skills & opportunities, and maybe even introduce you to your future spouse. When the right opportunity presents itself then you'll be more than ready to recognize it.

I think it was Jarhead who commented on the seemingly desperate urgency of some Young Dreamers to blitz through a couple of the best decades of their lives so that they could ER. It's not a sprint-- it's a marathon. If you start the pace at a five-minute mile then you won't even make it to the turnaround. While the last 10 years of my career did a lot to encourage my ER, the first 14 were challenging, exciting, demanding, fulfilling, and, oh yeah, fun. A lot of that happened because I wasn't always looking around trying to find a better opportunity outside the current situation.

Personally I think gas turbines are fascinating. Instead of rushing right into Nuclear Power School the minute I finished college, I spent six months in a lab trying to find the right combination of rare-metal coatings to put on gas turbines so that the Navy could fly them around at sea level without having them rust off the wings. That pit stop (so to speak) had no apparent application toward making me a nuclear engineer-- but it taught me a lot about the Navy's research bureaucracy, budgeting, finance, and the aviation community. I met plenty of officers in the Washington DC area, some of whom were a big help later on, and I also spent plenty of quality time with my spouse-to-be. I wouldn't have enjoyed all those benefits if I'd immediately rushed from the graduation ceremony right into the next nuclear classroom. Maybe you can achieve more by taking your time as well...