Career: how to get where I want to be?

[BunsGettingFirm]

Good advice, Nords, but how do you judge when you have stayed too long and are no longer on any track to something bigger and better?

 

[Nords]

Good advice, Nords, but how do you judge when you have stayed too long and are no longer on any track to something bigger and better?

Well, yeah, that cuts right to the heart of my credibility. The military very obligingly tells you when you've overstayed your career welcome. Reading the phrase "Best wishes on your future endeavors" in a naval message has stricken fear & trembling into the heart of many a warrior.

I think Laurence's thread nails this question better than I ever could.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Re: Relax and let the career come to you!

Nords,

Thanks for your response to this thread. Your post was filled with a great deal of wisdom, much of which I was subconsciously aware, but never put together quite the way you did. The second half of your post (although all of it was very good), hit me particularly hard:

As for school & family-- nothing motivates you toward getting those advanced degrees & skills (or advanced whatever) like having a family. Nothing can support you & help you like their love & loyalty, either. Erma Bombeck used to say that people get married so that they can worry about money. It's all too easy to become so focused on getting things done before you acquire family responsibilities that you keep on doing things and somehow never get around to the acquisition step. Achieving goals as a team is what makes the whole family thing worthwhile.

I was going down this path for the past 10 years without being conscious of it. While I was working hard, billing hours for the firm, writing articles for legal publications, etc... many of my friends and former classmates were meeting their significant others, getting married, having kids, building businesses, and in general getting on with their lives. Now 10 years out of law school, I don't find myself particularly "ahead of the game". In fact, I consider myself pretty much behind the pack. Many of the foregoing individuals have gone on to higher positions in the legal profession, loving wife and kids in tow, while I'm still trying to decide what I ultimately want to do with my career. I know that I shouldn't look at my career (or life for that matter) as a race, but it's rather difficult sometimes, having harbored a competitive mindset for so long. Now that I'm living with someone, and indeed contemplating marriage, my perspective is beginning to change, and I'm starting to let go of my single-mindedness desire to win, be the best, etc...

So perhaps your current career/job is a good place to relax, look around at how you can help, network with a group of people that can use your help while exposing you to other skills & opportunities, and maybe even introduce you to your future spouse. When the right opportunity presents itself then you'll be more than ready to recognize it.

I think it was Jarhead who commented on the seemingly desperate urgency of some Young Dreamers to blitz through a couple of the best decades of their lives so that they could ER. It's not a sprint-- it's a marathon. If you start the pace at a five-minute mile then you won't even make it to the turnaround.

Being at a crossroads in my career (i.e. a job that doesn't pay as well as I'd like, nor is exactly what I'd like to do), your advice comes across as pretty solid (except for the "spouse" part -- I've already met her). Instead of focusing on what I don't have in terms of career, perhaps it's a better idea to focus on what I do have, and build from there.

Constantly planning for the future, or comparing the present to the past, is no way to live. You miss so much of what's going on around you, and once those things are gone, they will never come again.

 

[Martha]

Jay, I heard part of a show on public radio yesterday and the guest was a psychologist that wrote a book on "performance addiction". He talked a lot about how some people are never satisfied with their work performance, excercise performance, etc. and always push and push themselves to higher levels. Though they often are quite successful, they are not happy. One solution he mentioned was to spend more time thinking of others rather than yourself. It looks like you have figured this out on your own : Now that I'm living with someone, and indeed contemplating marriage, my perspective is beginning to change, and I'm starting to let go of my single-mindedness desire to win, be the best, etc...

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Jay, I heard part of a show on public radio yesterday and the guest was a psychologist that wrote a book on "performance addiction".  He talked a lot about how some people are never satisfied with their work performance, excercise performance, etc. and always push and push themselves to higher levels.  Though they often are quite successful, they are not happy.  One solution he mentioned was  to spend more time thinking of others rather than yourself.  It looks like you have figured this out on your own.

I'd like to think so. Trying to be the "best" is a rather lonely pursuit, and at the end of the day it's likely to be a Pyrrhic victory based on the sacrifices required.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Just to follow up on my previous post. In reading a bio for the recently-deceased Chief Justice Rehnquist, the famous quote provided was:

"There are dangers that come with successful careers. One can slide almost imperceptibly into a situation where the demands of the job are automatically accorded priority over other, more personal commitments."

Apparently the quote was part of a commencement speech he gave back in 2002 to graduating seniors at Marymount College. He told them to be careful with how they managed their most precious commodity -- time. "Time is a wasting asset," he said. "Most of us realize it too late before expending a lot of it unwisely."

 

[soupcxan]

Re: Relax and let the career come to you!

Thanks for the input Nords...I WISH I could belong to local community groups and have a family, but being forced to relocate every 6 months (and then every 18 months once I finish this program, if you want to keep moving up the ladder) makes that extremely difficult. Hence my desire to get out at some point in my 5-year plan.

Why does this company force you to move around so much? I guess they think it builds character. And maybe it does, but I think there are other ways to get there that don't take such a large toll on your personal life.

It could be the same in your situation, too.  Maybe instead of being so focused on the express lane to your next job it'd be worth spending more time digging into your current one.  Joining a professional or community or service association (like the Rotary or Toastmasters) might be a seemingly unrelated career step that'd actually help you broaden your contacts & exposure while seeing others in their career fields.  Another poster here recommended becoming the office's Excel & Powerpoint geek so that you're always involved in helping (those who desperately need it) while being able to keep an eye on new projects.  You'd need these skills in just about any field, let alone energy, so why not develop them now instead of trying to find the "right career" right away.

As for school & family-- nothing motivates you toward getting those advanced degrees & skills (or advanced whatever) like having a family.  Nothing can support you & help you like their love & loyalty, either.  Erma Bombeck used to say that people get married so that they can worry about money.  It's all too easy to become so focused on getting things done before you acquire family responsibilities that you keep on doing things and somehow never get around to the acquisition step.  Achieving goals as a team is what makes the whole family thing worthwhile. 

 

[Nords]

Re: Relax and let the career come to you!

Thanks for the input Nords...I WISH I could belong to local community groups and have a family, but being forced to relocate every 6 months (and then every 18 months once I finish this program, if you want to keep moving up the ladder) makes that extremely difficult. Hence my desire to get out at some point in my 5-year plan.

We used to move a lot in the Navy (19 moves in 20 years between the two of us) and it's not easy. But being in the Navy meant that we had common ties with the people at our new duty station and we might even have served with some of them before.

I don't know how Lions, Rotary, Kiwanis, or Toastmasters work but I wonder if the group chapters might make the transition to a new location easier to network. You'd like to think that you could contact them a few months in advance and set up a happy hour or dinner.

Families will put up with just about anything as long as your check is deposited on time!

"If you want to keep moving up the ladder." Well, it's tough to decide when enough is enough. If you want to hang out until retirement just halfway up, will the company let you?

 

[Brat]

Laurence:

The company I'm considering going to wants to do a 2 hour interview with 3 people.  GEEZ!

At this point, and in your situation, you should be interviewing them.

Remember, this stage is akin to a courtship.  The marriage can be something entirely different.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Laurence:
At this point, and in your situation, you should be interviewing them.

Remember, this stage is akin to a courtship.  The marriage can be something entirely different.

It always is.

JG

 

[nwsteve]

Laurence:
At this point, and in your situation, you should be interviewing them.

I strongly second Brat's counsel.  Have your own series of questions to assure yourself they have tangible evidence of being able to deliver on what your current employer can not.
If personal development is a key item, ask them to describe a specific employee's progress after joining the company in a function similar to you.
If economic rewards are the ticket, ask them what they do to remain competitive for talent.  What percentile of competitive pay do they target to set their pay ranges. Do they have pay ranges?  If so what are they?
A great indicator of the quality of culture is their turnover rate.  What is it?  If they do not know--it is a yellow flag.
Good luck
Nwsteve

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

Thanks for the input Nords...I WISH I could belong to local community groups and have a family, but being forced to relocate every 6 months (and then every 18 months once I finish this program, if you want to keep moving up the ladder) makes that extremely difficult. Hence my desire to get out at some point in my 5-year plan.

Why does this company force you to move around so much? I guess they think it builds character. And maybe it does, but I think there are other ways to get there that don't take such a large toll on your personal life.

My take is that your company wants to make sure that you are exposed to every aspect of the company so that when you're ready to become upper management, you don't go in with a particular mindset, be it marketing, sales, finance, or engineering. I think you're on the fast track.

I see a lot of East Indian engineers moving around and working crazy hours, but they seem to be able to get hooked up through the traditional arranged-marriage route. It would appear that they have a vast network of web sites, referral services, and relatives. Come to think of it, arranged marriage probably isn't such a bad idea! LOL

 

[laurence]

Well, interesting update, the "other" company wanted to hire me, but didn't want to pay enough to make starting over worth it. So I'm still at the same place. But now my promotion paperwork has been completed and is with HR. Of course, HR is dragging their feet, "we don't normally do x, the metrics book say only do y" etc. etc. So I was just trying to be patient, and along come the Director of a department I applied to a year before. He declined to bring me on because I was too green for the position, but they now have a slot one notch down. This department would be the most awesome move ever, totally in the right path, stakes are a lot higher but so is the pay. Plus, they pay overtime (because there is OVERTIME). Crapola is already starting to hit the fan, my director might pull a franchise player clause on me and match whatever they offer, but frankly I don't want him to, because where I am has a much lower ceiling than where I'd go. How do I wrangle out of it without ticking him off? (Not into bridge burning, plus he's a cool guy). If this works out it will be huge. DW is talking about being a stay at home mom-imagine, big promotion pushes out my ER date, but for the right reasons. My work life is getting to be like a soap opera.

 

[REWahoo]

My work life is getting to be like a soap opera.

"The Young and the Restless" or "Another World"?

 

[laurence]

"The Young and the Restless" or "Another World"?

Definitely "Young and the Restless"! I'll admit, for all the wrangling and meetings and drama, I still ain't seen one extra penny (besides bonuses). I'm trying not to hold my breath this time.

 

[Nords]

Well, interesting update, the "other" company wanted to hire me, but didn't want to pay enough to make starting over worth it.

Probably a good thing. That committee hiring marathon interview could have been just a small taste of the time you'd be spending in meetings learning your new job.

I'll admit, for all the wrangling and meetings and drama, I still ain't seen one extra penny (besides bonuses). I'm trying not to hold my breath this time.

Maybe they're trying to figure out what kind of new (extra?) assignment to give you for you to educate them on what you've been doing for them. Perhaps a PowerPoint presentation (with soundtrack & laser lights) and a display booth? I think that you should include photos of Tori's birthday and your butt-kicking Wisconsin relatives so that the company realizes that you don't need to be working for them to be able to live your life... throw in a few surfboard pictures... then tell them "But, hey! No pressure!!"

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

Definitely "Young and the Restless"! I'll admit, for all the wrangling and meetings and drama, I still ain't seen one extra penny (besides bonuses). I'm trying not to hold my breath this time.

Nay, it is for sure "The Days of Our Labs".

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

Speaking of the "Days of Our Labs", I just found myself in a bit of a problem. The business school I'm applying to insists that one of the references must be from an employer. If I ask any of my current supervisors for a recommendation, then they would know my plans for sure -- I plan to leave work to attend business school full time. Should I ask, or should I ask somebody from a previous job (from almost 4 years ago)?

Buns

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Speaking of the "Days of Our Labs", I just found myself in a bit of a problem. The business school I'm applying to insists that one of the references must be from an employer. If I ask any of my current supervisors for a recommendation, then they would know my plans for sure -- I plan to leave work to attend business school full time. Should I ask, or should I ask somebody from a previous job (from almost 4 years ago)?

Buns

You're better off sticking with someone from your old employer for a reference. Even if you trust someone at your current employer, it's still bound to get around to the wrong people. One way of ensuring a good reference from someone four years in your past is to write the "script", or create a list of bullet points/historical facts about your work at your former employer. You can also give your old employer reference some insight into what you're currently doing at your present employer, especially if you've taken on more responsibilities and/or stepped into a managerial role. I've done this in my career, and it's worked wonders when the old employer reference mentions my current activities in the context of progressive growth/maturity.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

Gatsby, thank you for your very insightful reply. I will attempt what you have advised.

Thanks,

Buns

 

[laurence]

Definitely "Young and the Restless"! I'll admit, for all the wrangling and meetings and drama, I still ain't seen one extra penny (besides bonuses). I'm trying not to hold my breath this time.

UPDATE: Got a 12.5% raise today, and I have an interview this Thursday with a department that wants to nab me, maybe I can get another 10% on top! FINALLY!

 

[Brat]

The other department is a better track, remember.  And they pay overtime.

I doubt that HR will approve a double pay increase unless your current pay is lower than the bottom of that job's pay range.

The way that pay ranges work is that when you are in the lowest quartile raises (assuming that your company isn't in a pay freeze) come rapidly.  Increases slow a bit up through about midpoint +10% (60th%tile).  After that they slow a lot unless you are an 'individual contributor' (aka, hot shot).

The best way to grow pay is to get promotions, however, if you receive ovetime pay (and work some) you may be taking home more than your boss with a lot less grief.

 

[EricMD]

All post here is great. yup but you all missing one point. The ONLY way that i see to RE is ...... WORK FOR YOURSELF.

working for a company and put away money in 401k is NOT enough. i worked for the same company for 10 years and mine 401k is only worth 2 years of my salary. my brother 401k is at least ten time his salary...once u work for yourself u can put as much as $40k into your ira and can generate passive income.

that's the way to RE

 

[laurence]

The other department is a better track, remember. And they pay overtime.

I doubt that HR will approve a double pay increase unless your current pay is lower than the bottom of that job's pay range.

The way that pay ranges work is that when you are in the lowest quartile raises (assuming that your company isn't in a pay freeze) come rapidly. Increases slow a bit up through about midpoint +10% (60th%tile). After that they slow a lot unless you are an 'individual contributor' (aka, hot shot).

The best way to grow pay is to get promotions, however, if you receive ovetime pay (and work some) you may be taking home more than your boss with a lot less grief.

Somebody told me something similar yesterday. The job I'm going for is one grade higher than I am now, and my raise puts me right at the 25% of that grade. We'll see if I even get an offer.

Dr. Eric, yes, you are right, but my current view of working for myself is the same as my view on tatoos: I like the idea a lot, but I haven't found something yet that I would be passionate enough about to make that kind of commitment to. Researching....

 

[retire@40]

All post here is great. yup but you all missing one point.  The ONLY way that i see to RE is ...... WORK FOR YOURSELF.

working for a company and put away money in 401k is NOT enough. i worked for the same company for 10 years and mine 401k is only worth 2 years of my salary. my brother 401k is at least ten time his salary...once u work for yourself u can put as much as $40k into your ira and can generate passive income.

that's the way to RE

As everyone knows, I've been preaching that philosophy for a long time.  However, I concede that it's not the ONLY way to FIRE.  Also, you are not restricted to a 401(k) for savings.  I don't know how passive income figures into any of this, but maybe you meant to say deferred income.  You could always contribute to non-qualified plans such as annuities if you are looking to defer taxation until you withdraw.

But I think generally you are correct that being self-employed offers more freedom to work as you want to work and has a greater potential for increasing your wealth.  Plus, not having to work under the command of a "boss" who tells you what to do, how to do it, when to come in, when to leave, when to take a vacation, and all the other controlling factors he has on you 8 hours a day is priceless.