SecondCor521
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Just curious. Please only vote if you are female and were the plaintiff in your first divorce.
2Cor521
2Cor521
Divorced women - why?
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FinanceDude
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No adultery yet, curious............. 
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SecondCor521
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yelnad said:
I thought this might be the case with some people. If you made a list of the reasons and put them in order of importance, what was the #1 reason on the list?
2Cor521
Fireup2020
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Why can we only choose 1?
Let's see:
#1 Alcohol abuse
#2 Verbal abuse as a result of #1
#3 Financial Irresponsibility (buying beer is not more important than rent!)
#4 Adultery - discovered after the fact
#5 I believe these all add up to irreconcible differences!
Fortunately, not all men are like that one!
Was a loooong time ago....amazing how time, annullment, financial independence, etc. heals all wounds
?Let's see:
#1 Alcohol abuse
#2 Verbal abuse as a result of #1
#3 Financial Irresponsibility (buying beer is not more important than rent!)
#4 Adultery - discovered after the fact
#5 I believe these all add up to irreconcible differences!
Fortunately, not all men are like that one!
Was a loooong time ago....amazing how time, annullment, financial independence, etc. heals all wounds
OP
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SecondCor521
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
fireup2025, I was just wondering what the most common reasons were, so I thought knowing the primary reason from multiple women would be a good way to find out. Maybe I was wrong about that.
(Before reading the rest, realize I am a guy whose wife divorced him for reasons that were never reasonably explained. I also never did anything that was on the list above -- no adultery, no abuse, no financial irresponsibility, etc. I don't mean to offend anyone, just presenting my perspective.)
fireup and yelnad, and others reading -- irreconcilable differences is a phrase with a bit of legal history to it. As I understand it (and any lawyers reading who know more than I do, feel free to chime in), before maybe 30 years ago, there used to be a requirement of "grounds" for divorce, and there were a set of "acceptable" reasons, such as adultery or felonious behavior, that were laid out in the law. I think this situation represented the societal notion that people "should" stay married unless there was a "good" reason to get out. A parallel notion is that anyone could stay married as long as they didn't commit adultery, abuse their spouse, or whatever.
Society in recent years has changed it's perspective that if one person isn't happy in a marriage, they should be allowed out, even if there are no "socially approved" reasons for divorce present. Thus the laws in many (most?) states were changed to add "irreconcilable differences" or similar clauses, and thus the notion of "no fault" divorce came into being. At the same time the notion of "fault" also was reduced or eliminated from determinations of custody, child support, and alimony.
Obviously all divorces are a result of irreconcilable differences of one sort or another, but when I put the poll together I was wondering how many people divorce today for the "historical reasons" and how many divorce for other reasons under the catch-all no-fault "irreconcilable differences". I would venture to guess that most divorces now are done under "irreconcilable differences" because it's easier that way. Even if there is alcohol abuse, for example, filing under "irreconcilable differences" would eliminate the need to prove the alcohol abuse. Also there is no longer any motivation (in my state at least) because fault is removed from the child and financial split arrangements.
2Cor521
(Before reading the rest, realize I am a guy whose wife divorced him for reasons that were never reasonably explained. I also never did anything that was on the list above -- no adultery, no abuse, no financial irresponsibility, etc. I don't mean to offend anyone, just presenting my perspective.)
fireup and yelnad, and others reading -- irreconcilable differences is a phrase with a bit of legal history to it. As I understand it (and any lawyers reading who know more than I do, feel free to chime in), before maybe 30 years ago, there used to be a requirement of "grounds" for divorce, and there were a set of "acceptable" reasons, such as adultery or felonious behavior, that were laid out in the law. I think this situation represented the societal notion that people "should" stay married unless there was a "good" reason to get out. A parallel notion is that anyone could stay married as long as they didn't commit adultery, abuse their spouse, or whatever.
Society in recent years has changed it's perspective that if one person isn't happy in a marriage, they should be allowed out, even if there are no "socially approved" reasons for divorce present. Thus the laws in many (most?) states were changed to add "irreconcilable differences" or similar clauses, and thus the notion of "no fault" divorce came into being. At the same time the notion of "fault" also was reduced or eliminated from determinations of custody, child support, and alimony.
Obviously all divorces are a result of irreconcilable differences of one sort or another, but when I put the poll together I was wondering how many people divorce today for the "historical reasons" and how many divorce for other reasons under the catch-all no-fault "irreconcilable differences". I would venture to guess that most divorces now are done under "irreconcilable differences" because it's easier that way. Even if there is alcohol abuse, for example, filing under "irreconcilable differences" would eliminate the need to prove the alcohol abuse. Also there is no longer any motivation (in my state at least) because fault is removed from the child and financial split arrangements.
2Cor521
Fireup2020
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2Cor521,
I could be very wrong here, but your post almost reads as if you are trying to figure women out?
8)
I could be very wrong here, but your post almost reads as if you are trying to figure women out?
8)
haha
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
In Washington one party must state that the marriage is "irretrievably broken".
Not a happy phrase.
Ha
Not a happy phrase.
Ha
OP
OP
SecondCor521
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Fireup2025 said:2Cor521,
I could be very wrong here, but your post almost reads as if you are trying to figure women out?
8)
Ya caught me. Actually, if I could just understand one of you -- one that was faithful, honest, and loved me, and was the mother of my three kids -- that would be enough for me.
2Cor521
haha
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
A few quotes from the article-
"I am a divorced father who was simply dropped by his wife," e-mailed Curtis from St. Paul, who asked that his full name not be used to protect his children. His "past" wife, as he calls her, has moved away and he does not keep in touch with her. "There was no drug, alcohol, infidelity or abuse reasons. She simply said that I was 'boring' and 'spent too much time with the kids.' Now Curtis' past wife sure sounds mature, doesn't she?
Or, "One reality for men, Chethik discovered in his research, is that marriage is often good enough for them.”But women feel like, if it's not very good and growing and getting better, it's not good enough.""
These quotes illustrate one thing missing from the poll-"I left you because, just because. Nah nah nah nah nah!!”
One plan for a man who wants children is to work very hard in US, stay single, save money and move to the Philippines or wherever and start a family with a young middle class woman there. Or become a Muslim and go to Turkey- not many women walking there.
Then never bring her over here, never get entangled with US law, and be sure you understand the law wherever you decide to settle. Run a grocery or bar, don't act rich.
America is broken for a man who wants to raise a family here. Who wants to try to cater to the weird whims of a menopause addled woman?
A man can't understand women, at least in a way that he will feel good about. And women don't want to bother to understand men, because they are sure that in all important areas their way is the superior way.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot to add--IMHO!
Ha
"I am a divorced father who was simply dropped by his wife," e-mailed Curtis from St. Paul, who asked that his full name not be used to protect his children. His "past" wife, as he calls her, has moved away and he does not keep in touch with her. "There was no drug, alcohol, infidelity or abuse reasons. She simply said that I was 'boring' and 'spent too much time with the kids.' Now Curtis' past wife sure sounds mature, doesn't she?
Or, "One reality for men, Chethik discovered in his research, is that marriage is often good enough for them.”But women feel like, if it's not very good and growing and getting better, it's not good enough.""
These quotes illustrate one thing missing from the poll-"I left you because, just because. Nah nah nah nah nah!!”
One plan for a man who wants children is to work very hard in US, stay single, save money and move to the Philippines or wherever and start a family with a young middle class woman there. Or become a Muslim and go to Turkey- not many women walking there.
Then never bring her over here, never get entangled with US law, and be sure you understand the law wherever you decide to settle. Run a grocery or bar, don't act rich.
America is broken for a man who wants to raise a family here. Who wants to try to cater to the weird whims of a menopause addled woman?
A man can't understand women, at least in a way that he will feel good about. And women don't want to bother to understand men, because they are sure that in all important areas their way is the superior way.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot to add--IMHO!
Ha
OP
OP
SecondCor521
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
HaHa said:A few quotes from the article-
"I am a divorced father who was simply dropped by his wife," e-mailed Curtis from St. Paul, who asked that his full name not be used to protect his children. His "past" wife, as he calls her, has moved away and he does not keep in touch with her. "There was no drug, alcohol, infidelity or abuse reasons. She simply said that I was 'boring' and 'spent too much time with the kids.' Now Curtis' past wife sure sounds mature, doesn't she?
Or, "One reality for men, Chethik discovered in his research, is that marriage is often good enough for them.”But women feel like, if it's not very good and growing and getting better, it's not good enough.""
These quotes illustrate one thing missing from the poll-"I left you because, just because. Nah nah nah nah nah!!”
One plan for a man who wants children is to work very hard in US, stay single, save money and move to the Philippines or wherever and start a family with a young middle class woman there. Or become a Muslim and go to Turkey- not many women walking there.
Then never bring her over here, never get entangled with US law, and be sure you understand the law wherever you decide to settle. Run a grocery or bar, don't act rich.
America is broken for a man who wants to raise a family here. Who wants to try to cater to the weird whims of a menopause addled woman?
A man can't understand women, at least in a way that he will feel good about. And women don't want to bother to understand men, because they are sure that in all important areas their way is the superior way.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot to add--IMHO!
Ha
I think my ex would probably describe me as "boring and too concerned about saving money". Except that my ex is a little younger than the women in the article, I think she'd fit right in. The advent of no-fault divorce and the reduced social stigma has removed or reduced many of the pressures that made women stay in marriages before.
2Cor521
Moemg
Gone but not forgotten
2Cor521,
It's hard not to know the reason someone leaves but sometimes you'll never know .I divorced my first husband (eons ago ) because I should have never married him in the first place .We are complete opposites.My grown children even ask me why we ever married .In we womens defense usually we try to tell the guy trouble is brewing and then we tell them again and then we tell them again and then we go to a lawyer.So guys pay attention to our complaints before you are handed a summons.
It's hard not to know the reason someone leaves but sometimes you'll never know .I divorced my first husband (eons ago ) because I should have never married him in the first place .We are complete opposites.My grown children even ask me why we ever married .In we womens defense usually we try to tell the guy trouble is brewing and then we tell them again and then we tell them again and then we go to a lawyer.So guys pay attention to our complaints before you are handed a summons.
Outtahere
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I was never married to this guy but in a very long term relationship that felt like a marriage when I tried to end it. Biggest reason for leaving was Adultery and Mental Abuse. He never understood what he was doing was wrong, went on to do the same thing to the next woman (the last one I caught him with). It took many years to undo what that man did, thankfully I found a good man and I'm happily married now.
OP
OP
SecondCor521
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Moemg said:
I think the article above pointed out something that I probably failed at, in that woman try to tell the guy but for whatever reason the guy doesn't get it or doesn't listen or doesn't hear somehow, and then the woman either gives up talking or tries other more subtle approaches. Once she stops talking the guy figures everything is fine and dandy, and the marriage slowly erodes over the subsequent years and ends when the lady can't stand it any more.
2Cor521
OK - I'm once divorced, once affianced (broke up) and happily married now - I am female.
I realize that analyzing what went wrong is important, however, I believe it can be overdone. I found that what helped me on the path to finding a partner that is the best for me was to focus on what was important to me and what was important in my life - in fact, I had seen a counselor who said that when someone has a breakup they need to go inward and become themselves again, not what they tried to be for someone else, or what they were with that other person.
So, after I broke up with my fiance, whom I thought was going to be my soulmate - I took 9 months of not dating and focused on figuring out what were the most important things in my life and how I could act to fulfill those - examples were my family and being someone all of my familycould talk to (BIG deal in my family), some career aspirations, some health aspirations, and oh yes, having a partner, but one that liked me the way I am and vice versa. I figured life was difficult enough, I didn't need to make it more difficult by having a partner who didn't share key values, goals and temperament with me. I then set about doing just those things and I worked on emptying my mind of negative things and being more open to different experiences and people that I otherwise wouldn't have been - what was fascinating was that by doing that I met so many interesting people, had so many more interesting experiences and met someone whom I consider a much better fit for me as a partner - however, going in I made myself face the fact that I may *never* get married again and that was OK - to me it was better to happy alone than miserable together with anyone. What clinched it was I realized we are born alone and we die alone - we are fortunate to have people with us along this journey of life.
So to me it really is knowing who you are first - and working to make yourself the best you you can be - you'll then attract the right person for you.
Deserat
I realize that analyzing what went wrong is important, however, I believe it can be overdone. I found that what helped me on the path to finding a partner that is the best for me was to focus on what was important to me and what was important in my life - in fact, I had seen a counselor who said that when someone has a breakup they need to go inward and become themselves again, not what they tried to be for someone else, or what they were with that other person.
So, after I broke up with my fiance, whom I thought was going to be my soulmate - I took 9 months of not dating and focused on figuring out what were the most important things in my life and how I could act to fulfill those - examples were my family and being someone all of my familycould talk to (BIG deal in my family), some career aspirations, some health aspirations, and oh yes, having a partner, but one that liked me the way I am and vice versa. I figured life was difficult enough, I didn't need to make it more difficult by having a partner who didn't share key values, goals and temperament with me. I then set about doing just those things and I worked on emptying my mind of negative things and being more open to different experiences and people that I otherwise wouldn't have been - what was fascinating was that by doing that I met so many interesting people, had so many more interesting experiences and met someone whom I consider a much better fit for me as a partner - however, going in I made myself face the fact that I may *never* get married again and that was OK - to me it was better to happy alone than miserable together with anyone. What clinched it was I realized we are born alone and we die alone - we are fortunate to have people with us along this journey of life.
So to me it really is knowing who you are first - and working to make yourself the best you you can be - you'll then attract the right person for you.
Deserat
Why do you ask, grasshopper?
If my fading memory serves me, you have been trying to puzzle this one out for a while now. May I gently suggest that sometimes there is no answer to be had, and that seeking something that can't be had keeps one from moving on to what is within reach?
I don't remember if I told you last time you posted on the "understanding women" topic, (as I age I tend to repeat myself but a while back I got a call from a guy I knew 30 years ago. Said at the time I was the love of his life, but alas, he was not the one for me. Thirty years, one wife and two kids later, he tells me he STILL loves me and wants to see me.
I mention this as a cautionary tale. It will take quite a while to move on from this -- and it's always longer than you think. But the penalty for NOT moving on is to be wrapped around this axel 30 years from now.
I hope you're getting counseling, from someone who can help guide you through this troubled time.
If my fading memory serves me, you have been trying to puzzle this one out for a while now. May I gently suggest that sometimes there is no answer to be had, and that seeking something that can't be had keeps one from moving on to what is within reach?
I don't remember if I told you last time you posted on the "understanding women" topic, (as I age I tend to repeat myself
but a while back I got a call from a guy I knew 30 years ago. Said at the time I was the love of his life, but alas, he was not the one for me. Thirty years, one wife and two kids later, he tells me he STILL loves me and wants to see me. I mention this as a cautionary tale. It will take quite a while to move on from this -- and it's always longer than you think. But the penalty for NOT moving on is to be wrapped around this axel 30 years from now.
I hope you're getting counseling, from someone who can help guide you through this troubled time.
cube_rat
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Caroline said:but a while back I got a call from a guy I knew 30 years ago. Said at the time I was the love of his life, but alas, he was not the one for me. Thirty years, one wife and two kids later, he tells me he STILL loves me and wants to see me.
Oh God, you have one of THOSE too?? LOL!
Sorry to the OP for my side bar comment.
youbet
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
2Cor521:
Watched my best friend go through a painful divorce ending a twenty-some year marriage. Absolutely devastated him. She simply wanted to "move on with her life" after raising two kids, helping him build the family business, etc.
I noted him going through the following stages over 3 - 4 years:
1. Trying to win her back.
2. Excessive dating. Good looking, strong in social skills and with plenty of money, he was a dream date for single women who just wanted to get out of the house for an evening. He boosted his hurt ego by having a formal date three or four nights a week.
3. Finding "Ms. Right." Several women were nominated to be the replacement for the original Ms Right.
4. Being himself and just enjoying friends and good times. (Finally!) The hurt ego seems to have healed. Three or four lady friends now take the place of his long-gone bride. When he arrives for our monthly bridge game, we never know which one will be with him! It seems like he's content with life this way and we're glad for him because he was certainly in search of himself for a long time.
You'll go through stages too. Hope you get to where you need to go as quickly and painlessly as possible.
Watched my best friend go through a painful divorce ending a twenty-some year marriage. Absolutely devastated him. She simply wanted to "move on with her life" after raising two kids, helping him build the family business, etc.
I noted him going through the following stages over 3 - 4 years:
1. Trying to win her back.
2. Excessive dating. Good looking, strong in social skills and with plenty of money, he was a dream date for single women who just wanted to get out of the house for an evening. He boosted his hurt ego by having a formal date three or four nights a week.
3. Finding "Ms. Right." Several women were nominated to be the replacement for the original Ms Right.
4. Being himself and just enjoying friends and good times. (Finally!) The hurt ego seems to have healed. Three or four lady friends now take the place of his long-gone bride. When he arrives for our monthly bridge game, we never know which one will be with him!
It seems like he's content with life this way and we're glad for him because he was certainly in search of himself for a long time.You'll go through stages too. Hope you get to where you need to go as quickly and painlessly as possible.
I think the veracity of these divorce survey respondent's quotes is like those of people who "return to work because they're bored & unfulfilled" and "prefer to keep working because they're seeking a challenge".HaHa said:
No one is willing to discuss the truth-- the divorcé can't be lived with and the others don't have enough money. The problem is that it's difficult for the researcher (and impossible for the reader) to ascertain the truth.
I'm not saying that people aren't divorced and/or don't return to work for those reasons, but Occam's Razor tends to cut through the crap being spouted in those situations. And it's a lot easier to stand there looking hurt & confused (or to return to the workplace) than it is to deal with the truth.
Khan
Gone but not forgotten
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Nords said:
Sometimes you come to realize that living with someone is not a really good idea.
I know I am/was/would be nearly impossible to live with.
haha
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Possibly never before in human history have men and women tried to get so much out of one another almost exclusively for so long.
People start to run up against the laws of conditional probability. Wife or husband has to offer all one needs in the areas of financial success and security, co-parenting, sex, romantic love, looks, entertainment, companionship, etc....
Start multiplying out the individual probabilities and one is in awe that anyone stays together beyond the infatuation stage of "Baby, your pheromones sing sweet music to my brain stem. Are you reading mine?”
In fact, I think one of the truly astounding things about people on this board, in addition to their awe-inspiring ability to pile up assets or entitlements is their possibly even more awe-inspiring ability to be/stay mutually satisfied with a life partner. You deserve big kudos for that!
Ha
People start to run up against the laws of conditional probability. Wife or husband has to offer all one needs in the areas of financial success and security, co-parenting, sex, romantic love, looks, entertainment, companionship, etc....
Start multiplying out the individual probabilities and one is in awe that anyone stays together beyond the infatuation stage of "Baby, your pheromones sing sweet music to my brain stem. Are you reading mine?”
In fact, I think one of the truly astounding things about people on this board, in addition to their awe-inspiring ability to pile up assets or entitlements is their possibly even more awe-inspiring ability to be/stay mutually satisfied with a life partner. You deserve big kudos for that!
Ha
OP
OP
SecondCor521
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Thanks to all for the replies.
deserat, I get what you're saying, and I appreciate your points.
Caroline, I realize I come across as "wrapped around the axle" with this post. Maybe so, and my poll did stem from my not knowing the real "why", which in itself wrapped up in other things. I was very concerned with the "why" when the divorce was impending, but I realized that didn't matter unless she were willing to change her mind, which she wasn't. Now I think I want to know why just because that's my personality type. Don't you think you would want to know why if your SO decided to leave after 4 years of knowing you, 4 years of dating, and 15 years of marriage? I suspect you're the kind of person who would ask. Maybe I should have been / should be.
cube_rat, no problem. You and Caroline have my sympathies.
youbet, I'm done with #1, I'll skip #2, thanks, I have well-meaning family and friends trying #3, and am trying to get to #4, as you say, as quickly and painlessly as possible.
Nords, harsh words if I'm reading you correctly. But I appreciate them. This is what I'm trying to ultimately decide -- Was I really that bad? Or is my ex the one with the main issue? Or was it just a bad match at a tender age? I don't mean to boil it all down to something that simplistic, but that's the gist of the issue. I guess I have to go back to improving myself where I want to/think I need to, and leave the rest.
Khan, I hear you.
Haha, I think it can be done, but it's a lot harder than it looks and requires a strong commitment from both parties. Stronger than what society demands anymore.
2Cor521
deserat, I get what you're saying, and I appreciate your points.
Caroline, I realize I come across as "wrapped around the axle" with this post. Maybe so, and my poll did stem from my not knowing the real "why", which in itself wrapped up in other things. I was very concerned with the "why" when the divorce was impending, but I realized that didn't matter unless she were willing to change her mind, which she wasn't. Now I think I want to know why just because that's my personality type. Don't you think you would want to know why if your SO decided to leave after 4 years of knowing you, 4 years of dating, and 15 years of marriage? I suspect you're the kind of person who would ask. Maybe I should have been / should be.
cube_rat, no problem. You and Caroline have my sympathies.
youbet, I'm done with #1, I'll skip #2, thanks, I have well-meaning family and friends trying #3, and am trying to get to #4, as you say, as quickly and painlessly as possible.
Nords, harsh words if I'm reading you correctly. But I appreciate them. This is what I'm trying to ultimately decide -- Was I really that bad? Or is my ex the one with the main issue? Or was it just a bad match at a tender age? I don't mean to boil it all down to something that simplistic, but that's the gist of the issue. I guess I have to go back to improving myself where I want to/think I need to, and leave the rest.
Khan, I hear you.
Haha, I think it can be done, but it's a lot harder than it looks and requires a strong commitment from both parties. Stronger than what society demands anymore.
2Cor521
Moemg
Gone but not forgotten
Honestly ,would we really want someone to be brutally honest with us about why they left ? Maybe your ex is just trying to be nice and spare your feelings .
