Health care?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I admire the way the UK has tackled health care. They are VERY proactive in preventative treatment, to the point of advertising on transit systems, TV, people out in the street directing people inside a little temporary vaccination clinic to get their flu shots.

Doctors receive a base salary of say around $80,000 to $100,000 and then get bonuses for achieving success with their patients. If they are successful in getting people to stop smoking, they get so many points, lose weight, more points, bring cholesterol down, more points, diabetes under control more points, etc. etc. This translates into yearly bonuses for the doctors, and can easily double their annual salary. It's payment for success. Sounds to me like they really got a system that rewards results, and strives to keep people healthy.

Wonder how long it will take to repay that US med-school student loan making $80K a year. You can make $160K being a salesman without all the responsibility.
 
Last edited:
Didn't the Michael Moore movie show some Brit or French doctor who said they made $180k and they did house calls?
 
I admire the way the UK has tackled health care. They are VERY proactive in preventative treatment, to the point of advertising on transit systems, TV, people out in the street directing people inside a little temporary vaccination clinic to get their flu shots.

Doctors receive a base salary of say around $80,000 to $100,000 and then get bonuses for achieving success with their patients. If they are successful in getting people to stop smoking, they get so many points, lose weight, more points, bring cholesterol down, more points, diabetes under control more points, etc. etc. This translates into yearly bonuses for the doctors, and can easily double their annual salary. It's payment for success. Sounds to me like they really got a system that rewards results, and strives to keep people healthy.

Wonder how long it will take to repay that US med-school student loan making $80K a year. You can make $160K being a salesman without all the responsibility.

It's all relative.

In the UK, university education is a fraction of the cost that it is here.

I don't think Dr salaries are the reason healthcare is so expensive in the USA. Engineers in the USA are paid a similar multipier higher than engineers in the UK, but US manufacturing/engineering companies more than match their UK counterparts.

PS

I do agree that a system of compensation that pays on long term results, and doesn't have doctors as share holders in the clinics and labs they use, is a better model for lower costs.
 
Last edited:
I've scanned this thread and have not seen comments regarding the difference between health care, health care costs, and health care insurance. These issues are related but they are not the same, even though many people think they are synonymous.

Health care in my mind is the doctor, nurse, hospital, procedure - the actual care provided - IMHO the quality of health care in the U.S. is very good.

The cost of health care is very complex. Employers are typically involved, if not employers, then the government (Medicare/Medicaid) is involved. There are tax incentives and the cost portion becomes complex very quickly. I feel strongly that spending Other People's Money (OPM) contributes to higher costs. If your doctor suggests several alternatives and you have no incentive to understand the costs involved, you'll likely opt for the most expensive/complex offering and disregard the cost factor.

Health care insurance is commonly thought of as the "coverage" we receive. For example, what we pay for the care. As I said previously, cost and insurance are not the same although they are intertwined. I think we should all pay for our care and insurance should be just that - insurance for unexpected events. Peridic office visits for colds, flu, and other relatively routine procedures should not be expected to be "free." There is no free - somebody (you and me) are paying the cost.

HSAs have lots of good features. For those of us that can self-fund an HSA we should do so. For those of welfare I suppose tax money can be used to fund the HSA. When we go to the doctor for relatively routine procedures we pay for the care from our HSA. This will drive us to be more involved in inderstanding the costs. When we're involved in the cost we will make better decisions. So, self-funded or tax payer funded (for those on welfare/Medicaid/Medicare) HSAs make lots of sense in my mind. But don't confuse this with single-payer.

I'll be the first to say our U.S. system needs to be changed. It needs a dramatic overhaul. I'd prefer to have employers removed from the equation - that only came about during WWII and it's been a problem ever since.

I am not in favor of a single-payer (i.e. government) system. I personally know people in Canada and in the U.K. Yes, they like the system in general but they also think there are significant problems that need to be addressed. Most of the people I know in Canada and the U.K. have supplemental insurance to get them to the front of the line. One person I know did not have supplemental insurance and she had to avoid leaving the country for a planned vacation so she could be "on call" for her so-called elective surgery. It was considered elective since she had already had the initial surgery that addressed her broken leg. The follow-up surgery would not have been considered elective in my mind but the single-payer system in Canada said she had to wait for surgery and they would not assure her of a hospital date. I don't want that system. I'll gladly deal with some paperwork and added premiums for more input in the system.
 
nvestystyl,

It sounds like your friend in Canada chose to have money to spend on vacations rather than have supplemental health insurance. Is that not what insurance is for? To cover unexpected events. I don't see why that example makes it worse than in the USA.
 
Last edited:
If I was to go only on personal experience I would say US healthcare is the best in the world. I have an MA state health plan that costs me $100 a month with no- deductible and very low co-pays. I recently had out patient surgery and the total cost was $250 and including the ultrasound, blood tests and follow up visits and I only had to wait 2 days after getting a referral form my primary care doctor. If I was in the UK I would have had the same level of care for no out of pocket cost, but I might have waited a couple of months.

So US healthcare is great for me and UK almost as good. I have access to two systems that deliver excellent care. Of course YMMV, and for many in American their milage is long and hard particularly if they have any history of illness and try to buy insurance on the private market. Sure US healthcare works for me, but it fails or is non-existant for a large percentage of Americans. When that gets above 50% we might see change
 
Buckeye said:
My husband plays tennis a couple times a week with international snowbirds from Germany, France, Canada and the Netherlands. Politics, including healthcare, come up in their Friday coffee klatch. They consider our lack of available healthcare for those who can least afford it barbaric.

While we Canadians have a health care system that is far from perfect we do not lose any sleep worrying that the economically unfortunate among us and their children will also have to suffer illness and death without proper care.
 
Health care is a big factor in the ability to RE, at least from my POV. I think I can do it now if it were not concerns about a catastrophic illness blowing up my savings.

I'd have to get coverage for over 10 years until Medicare, assuming they don't change the rules of the game for those under 55 like they've been talking about (the Ryan plan, for instance).
 
nvestysly said:
I am not in favor of a single-payer (i.e. government) system. I personally know people in Canada and in the U.K. Yes, they like the system in general but they also think there are significant problems that need to be addressed. Most of the people I know in Canada and the U.K. have supplemental insurance to get them to the front of the line. One person I know did not have supplemental insurance and she had to avoid leaving the country for a planned vacation so she could be "on call" for her so-called elective surgery. It was considered elective since she had already had the initial surgery that addressed her broken leg. The follow-up surgery would not have been considered elective in my mind but the single-payer system in Canada said she had to wait for surgery and they would not assure her of a hospital date. I don't want that system. I'll gladly deal with some paperwork and added premiums for more input in the system.


In Canada, there is no such thing as supplemental insurance that will get you to the front of the line. The system is based on the principle of universal access. Some provinces have been pushing the envelope by allowing some private, for profit services such as MRi scans but even this is limited.

Orthopaedic surgery is one of the worst areas in the system. Wait times can be very long. It's not clear to me why this is other than the fact that generally, no one will die waiting for a knee operation. If your friend was "on call" it was because she was wait listed for her surgery, meaning that they wanted to get her in ASAP and so she had to be available in the event of a spot opening up in the surgical schedule. This was not a result of her not having bought some sort of insurance.
 
If I was to go only on personal experience I would say US healthcare is the best in the world. I have an MA state health plan that costs me $100 a month with no- deductible and very low co-pays. I recently had out patient surgery and the total cost was $250 and including the ultrasound, blood tests and follow up visits and I only had to wait 2 days after getting a referral form my primary care doctor. If I was in the UK I would have had the same level of care for no out of pocket cost, but I might have waited a couple of months.
But if you live in the US, that's not what it costs you, you pay considerably more. Much more than any other country on the world. And that POV is one of the reasons the public isn't really pushing for change, most have no idea how much it's really costing them...even though it's spelled out for us repeatedly. We get what we deserve.
:(
 
Last edited:
See below. And BTW, I'd hope for your recommendation after such a lengthy critique.
nvestysly said:
I'll be the first to say our U.S. system needs to be changed. It needs a dramatic overhaul. Agreed.

I am not in favor of a single-payer (i.e. government) system. I personally know people in Canada and in the U.K. Yes, they like the system in general but they also think there are significant problems that need to be addressed. But they certainly don't want the US system, so what does this mean? And of course they'd like to see improvements, that's going to be a given with any affordable system, there are inevitable trade offs.

I'll gladly deal with some paperwork and added premiums for more input in the system. Even a 40-100% premium, or an average of about $3,000-$4,000 per person per year? We're not talking some nominal "premium." We collectively can't afford that, and the costs are growing much faster than inflation overall.
 
Last edited:
What if the US gov't provided only Universal Catastrophic Health Coverage for huge expenses (cancer, heart attack etc) and you had your own insurance to cover yourself (or not) for general, smaller expenses (broken arm, routine Dr visits etc).

Wouldn't the cost of your personal insurance go down and the gov't could cover the big stuff with a smaller tax hit?

Seems like everybody --including the insurance co's--win. Or, as is often the case, am I missing something?
 
What if the US gov't provided only Universal Catastrophic Health Coverage for huge expenses (cancer, heart attack etc) and you had your own insurance to cover yourself (or not) for general, smaller expenses (broken arm, routine Dr visits etc).

Wouldn't the cost of your personal insurance go down and the gov't could cover the big stuff with a smaller tax hit?

Seems like everybody --including the insurance co's--win. Or, as is often the case, am I missing something?

I think that would just kick the can down the road. A version of that is happening now. There has been an explosion of small outpatient surgery and treatment centers that has taken a lot of the inexpensive stuff away away from hospitals so they are increasingly left with the very sick, most expensive and least profitable patients. Increasing numbers of doctors are owners or part owners of the outpatient centers making more and more money, and reducing the numbers of injuries that could be treated without surgery and increasing the numbers of scans and tests.
 
I actually think that the HSA and high deductible policies work pretty well and are consistent with the notion that in the US health care is a personal responsibility. Having periodic physicals covered results in people using it rather than not going to the doc for a physicals because they don't want to spend the $200 and health problems being identified earlier.

The problem is that too many people have a warped view that health insurance should pay for every little thing, but at the same time they wouldn't think that car insurance should pay for oil changes or tires or brakes.

I sometimes wonder if it would make sense to centralize medical records to reduce chasing information and duplicative medical tests and centralize claims processing. But then allow each individual (or family) to insure the economic risk with health insurers who would compete for their business. Somewhat similar to the way Medicare works but without the government on the hook for the economic risk. Perhaps have a number of different options (sort of like is done for Medigap) where people could make their own decisions on the risk/reward tradeoff. That way, those who want brakes and oil changes covered can do so but pay for it in their premiums and those who would prefer to self-insure that routine stuff can do so and save on their premiums.

You would still have the problem of freeloaders who don't participate and expect society to pay for them if they get sick. It seems to me there are only true possible options: leave them to their own devices and if charity can take care of them fine, otherwise they are s-o-l, have a government funded program for catastrophic health care or require every individual buy a high deductible health care policy (say >$50k) unless they can prove that they can self-insure (like the very rich, etc.)

Just thinking how it could be better without having the government totally takeover.
 
I wonder how much the increased ease and availability in joint replacements will effect health care costs down the road. I read this week that one out of 20 people over the age of 50 now has had some joint replaced already. The article said that older people used to just adjust their lifestyle to fit their pain cmfort level.

I won't try and predict the future, but I do know that my MIL had a hip replacement in her 70's. Without it she would have been in a wheel chair for most of the last 20 years of her life. Though she complained about the pain and the fact the the replacement hip was not perfect, she managed to stay in her own apartment for over 15 years and only needed special care in the last year of her life. Compare the cost of the hip replacement to the cost of special care needed for 15 years. Which might be cheaper?n Older people live longer these days, so adjusting one's lifestyle may not be as easy as it was when people died at an earlier age.
 
Last edited:
I hear the high deductible plans are considered like icing on the cake to the insurers. More profitable than their other products.

Sounds like a raw deal for consumers.
 
Reason why insurance has to pay for every little thing is that prices are completely out of whack. A 10-minute visit to the doctor (where you're waiting maybe an hour for the session, taking a couple of hours off work for the appt.) is billed to the insurer at like $200.

Often, the providers charge non-insured patients more for the same services.

Oh and if people had to pay out of pocket for "every little thing" they will start avoiding doctor visits when they should be seeing a doctor and conditions become more acute and treatment becomes more expensive.

Imagine how many people would skip annual physicals if they had to pay out of pocket.
 
Reason why insurance has to pay for every little thing is that prices are completely out of whack. A 10-minute visit to the doctor (where you're waiting maybe an hour for the session, taking a couple of hours off work for the appt.) is billed to the insurer at like $200.

Often, the providers charge non-insured patients more for the same services.

Oh and if people had to pay out of pocket for "every little thing" they will start avoiding doctor visits when they should be seeing a doctor and conditions become more acute and treatment becomes more expensive.

Imagine how many people would skip annual physicals if they had to pay out of pocket.

I agree tht prices are out of whack, but there are a few things that you need to consider.

First, preventative care is typically covered but high deductible health plans.

Second, those who have a high deductible health plans pay negotiated rates and not the rack rates that non-insured patients are charged. From my experience the negotiated rates are 30-50% less than the rack rates.

Finally, if a person isn't willing to spend the money needed to preserve their health, why should I give a damn about their health and pay for it?
 
I hear the high deductible plans are considered like icing on the cake to the insurers. More profitable than their other products.

Sounds like a raw deal for consumers.

What sort of premiums, deductibles, maxes and co-pays are we talking about with these policies?

The US will never adopt a system like the NHS and the patchwork of the states will produce a variety of solutions. I have no idea what they will, but they must produce universal coverage for everyone at a price they can afford. Having health insurance linked to work without long term affordable alternatives if you loose your job is an enormous issue. COBRA is simply too expensive and short lived.
 
What if the US gov't provided only Universal Catastrophic Health Coverage for huge expenses (cancer, heart attack etc) and you had your own insurance to cover yourself (or not) for general, smaller expenses (broken arm, routine Dr visits etc).

Wouldn't the cost of your personal insurance go down and the gov't could cover the big stuff with a smaller tax hit?

Seems like everybody --including the insurance co's--win. Or, as is often the case, am I missing something?

My guess is that scenario might only add to the administrative cost.
Of course, I agree it would be better than what we have now. But then almost anything is better than we have now.

The other side of that coin in controlling costs is individuals having some skin in the game. I see myself - people on medicare and private insurance (paid for by their employer), not being at all concerned with costs and therefore either agreeing or opting for things they might not if they had to pay a portion of it themselves.

My GP, who I know well was complaining about the excessive appointments his medicare patients were making when there was really nothing wrong with them. He said he would like to see a $25 copay instituted and he thinks these frivolous visits would decrease dramatically.

There of course would probably have to be a reduced fee for people very low income patients (say $10), or the doctor could have the option to waive it if he so chose.

Doctors are of the same mentality sometimes. When I saw a specialist a couple of years ago, he suggested I have an expensive test to see if my condition had worsened. I asked him, if it has, is there anything he can do to make it better? He said, "not really". So I said, "then why go through the expense of the test?" His answer to me was: "What do you care, medicare will pay for it." So, I politely told him, I did care because someone was paying for it. That is a true story.

It is a real Catch 22 if there ever was one - when it comes to medicine. We know that making people incur some costs might greatly reduce unnecessary procedures and tests. On the other hand, it might discourage people from seeing a doctor and getting treatment they need. We know that some doctors are quick to recommend operations and procedures that patients might not need and would not really improve their condition enough if at all to warrant such an expense.

I'd love to see physicians compensation be based on performance. They could have different grade pays. The better your overall patient outcome is, the higher your pay grade. It would be the same as lawyers with good track records (wins to loses) charging higher hourly rates or company executives competing for higher positions based on how well they do.
Maybe I'm dreaming, but more pay for good performance seems like a real incentive to do good and the American way.

I do want to see doctors receive adequate pay, especially with the high cost of education and time involved. They deserve it.

Untangling the current system will be very challenging. But if it has been done in so many other countries. It can be done here. There are people who are very knowledgeable in this area such as the doctor Midpack mentioned earlier, who has helped other countries into the transition.
 
Last edited:
The other side of that coin in controlling costs is individuals having some skin in the game. I see myself - people on medicare and private insurance (paid for by their employer), not being at all concerned with costs and therefore either agreeing or opting for things they might not if they had to pay a portion of it themselves.

In the UK the patient doesn't have any "skin in the game" as they never see a bill. The only paper work might be a prescription or a letter from your doctor. Costs are controlled by Local Health Trusts that must run on tight budgets and there is also control of accepted procedures so that only ones with proven efficacy are allowed on the NHS. UK doctors are also far less lightly to do expensive diagnostic tests that their US counterparts. Finally I think the psychology of UK vs US citizens also plays a part. The UK patient is a lot less pro-active than their US counterpart. They will take the treatment given by their doctor and don't ask for lots of new drugs or tests. They accept the standard of care and just get on with things. I don't really like that, but deference to authority runs deep in the UK and as far as health care is concerned it actually works pretty well........on average.
 
And what support do you have for the opinion?

Quick search turned up a bunch of articles:

High Deductible Health Insurance Plays Russian Roulette With Our Health As Insurers Rack Up Record Profits - Forbes


I remember when the Cigna executive turned whistleblower first started doing interviews, he mentioned these kinds of plans as manna for the insurers. Found this just now:

Insurers and employers, in the US, are forcing more and more Americans into consumer driven plans, with high dollar deductibles, ceilings under which no benefits will be paid out, and this is increasing out of pocket expenses, and causing people to delay or forgo care. Potter writes of a "forced 'migration' of workers [in]to managed care," from traditional indemnity plans, during the 1990s, due to provisions of the Nixon era HMO Act. In 1998, a PR campaign was undertaken to help improve the image of managed care; companies hired Goddard Clausen, the creators of the 'Harry and Louise' commercial, aimed at the Clinton plan, and the Hawthorn Group, both of which operated behind a front group called Coalition for Affordable Quality Healthcare. Rather than owning up to their failures, health insurance companies "pointed the finger of blame at their customers," and their CEOs embarked on personal responsibility crusades, which Potter describes as a ploy "for pushing risks, and costs, formerly borne by institutions onto individual Americans." Potter writes that the shift from "failed" managed care to "consumerism" was all about meeting the expectations of Wall Street, finding ways to "avoid paying for healthcare," and shifting "costs to policy holders." Big insurance companies like CIGNA, and United Health Group, began forcing their employees into "high-deductible plans," a process that was called "'going full replacement.'" A 2005 survey of employers "showed that more than three quarters of all US companies planned to shift costs to their employees." Potter then mentions the sale of the "illusion of coverage" and what he calls "limited-benefit plans." These are the "ultimate in cost shifting" and are marketed to chains with high employee turnover. He calls them "fake insurance." Finally, it is through premium increases, and the shifting of costs, that insurers are able to "manipulate" their "medical-loss ratio" (MLR). This ratio is followed closely by Wall Street, and CEOs concerned about their stock options, and it says much that having to pay for care is seen as a loss. Potter writes that from 1993 to the present "the average MLR in America has dropped from 95 percent to around 80 percent."

Insurance industry whistleblower predicted new front group "Vermonters For Healthcare Freedom" | Facebook
 
And what support do you have for the opinion?


Read Wendell Potters book. He was a CEO at Cigna, I believe. He explains this new trend by insurance companies and explains how they are pushing these policies because they make a lot of money on them. They are high deductible (lower costing) policies that have lots of exclusions in them. He explains how insurance companies are relieving themselves of cost obligations in these policies and giving it to the policy holder, rendering them highly under insured. He has testified in Congress as to the current practices of insurance companies.

My sister has one of these high deductible policies, because she can't afford anything else.
She has a problem with her foot and is in constant pain walking on it. She finally did go to a doctor, who said he needed her to get a MRI. As she would be a private payer of this scan, it was double what an insurance company would pay. She can not afford this, so she lives with the pain and remains in the dark as to the cause. This is wrong on so many levels.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom