$15 to drive into new york city

[marko]

I never drove at all when I worked in midtown Manhattan. I just walked the three blocks from my house here in Connecticut to the Metro-North station, took the train in to Grand Central and then walked from there to my office every day.

.

I was born and raised in Brooklyn, and I have to say that I've hardly ever seen any need to drive to anything in Manhattan. The subway system always met my needs, and I seriously doubt that I would ever have benefited from driving simply due to the extra time needed to find a parking space.

How does anyone park in Manhattan now anyway? Those who go in by car daily are not low/middle income workers, it's completely impractical even without a fee.

I grew up in Queens, lived there until I was 23, and I could count on one hand the times I drove or someone else drove me into Manhattan. It was just too much of a PITA.

Which gets back to my question of "who exactly is now going to change their ways and start using the subway to such a degree that it will notably lower congestion? "

Seems like anyone in the know already takes pubtrans out of either cost or convenience, except for the rich who black-car it in and don't care about $15. The rest have no reason to go there.

 

[GenXguy]

Which gets back to my question of "who exactly is now going to change their ways and start using the subway to such a degree that it will notably lower congestion? "

Seems like anyone in the know already takes pubtrans out of either cost or convenience, except for the rich who black-car it in and don't care about $15. The rest have no reason to go there.

There's a study that says it should cut traffic by 17% entering Lower Manhattan. Based on the study, it's not just rich people driving.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/27/nyregion/nyc-congestion-pricing-tolls-mta.html

https://new.mta.info/document/127761

 

[LateToFIRE]

Points to ponder:

There really are no such thing as "inner suburbs" in Brooklyn and Queens . As I said, these places are part of NYC and are large cities to themselves. See this NYC density map: https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=80f9b95a4ce0491091f1477710f6a91d#!

- One might assume that drivers are taking the same route in to park. Not necessarily, as there are definitely "concentration points" for close in access to Manhattan via the subway (view a NYC subway map for details).

- In places where there is already little parking, it will be more traffic. Harder to find parking means that cars will be on the street longer trying to find a space. More cars fighting over the same space = cars longer in the street = more traffic. It is actually a queuing theory exercise - increase the number of items arriving in the queue with the same service time (parking spaces) = longer queues.

The Park Slope neighborhood of Brooklyn is a prime example, I am more than a little familiar with it . Easy access via subway to Wall Street, but a very dense area where you need luck to find a parking space.

I understand the reason for congestion pricing, I am not arguing that. I am simply saying that, with these types of things, there are always unintended consequences that are either ignored or not thought about. It is more likely that the result will see an expansion of the congestion pricing area. But if I knew that for sure, I'd own my own little island, living off the proceeds of my predictions.

Lol, affectionately known as "No Park Slope"

 

[Pellice]

These mega-cities are incredibly congested, all around the world. But they are unwilling to give up their grip on the businesses that force people to go into them. New York City is a wonderful place, but super crowded, as is Mexico City, Bogota, Amsterdam ... you name it. But businesses seem unwilling to take that into account.

There are so many great cities in the Midwest that HAVE the space and infrastructure for people. They have symphonies and great parks and airports and sports teams. I was dismayed when that big Amazon contest for a new HQ ended up between NYC and Washington "because they needed college grads." C'mon, Colombus, Ohio has Ohio State. St. Louis has wonderful natural advantages as well as a fascinating history and civic awareness. And 4 universities.

I can't believe businesses think, in the age of the internet and easy travel, that the prestige of being in New York is worth the expense and employee hassle. Yes, there are 5 star restaurants with snobbish entry requirements, but there are great restaurants in every big city. I'm an east-coaster, but will eventually be moving to the midwest. I love the verdancy, the easy transportation, the long-established cultural facilities, the many open spaces.

People will follow businesses and jobs, if they would only move.

 

[LateToFIRE]

These mega-cities are incredibly congested, all around the world. But they are unwilling to give up their grip on the businesses that force people to go into them. New York City is a wonderful place, but super crowded, as is Mexico City, Bogota, Amsterdam ... you name it. But businesses seem unwilling to take that into account.

There are so many great cities in the Midwest that HAVE the space and infrastructure for people. They have symphonies and great parks and airports and sports teams. I was dismayed when that big Amazon contest for a new HQ ended up between NYC and Washington "because they needed college grads." C'mon, Colombus, Ohio has Ohio State. St. Louis has wonderful natural advantages as well as a fascinating history and civic awareness. And 4 universities.

I can't believe businesses think, in the age of the internet and easy travel, that the prestige of being in New York is worth the expense and employee hassle. Yes, there are 5 star restaurants with snobbish entry requirements, but there are great restaurants in every big city. I'm an east-coaster, but will eventually be moving to the midwest. I love the verdancy, the easy transportation, the long-established cultural facilities, the many open spaces.

People will follow businesses and jobs, if they would only move.

I've been studying this very topic a long time. The forces are far more complex than your statement. For sure, technology has enabled the dispersion of business activity, especially lower value activity, but what I'm seeing in NYC is an enduring desire among younger and mid-career employees to live in the city, and even raise families in the city, albeit Manhattan is no longer the default choice (as in the Brooklyn-ification of NYC over past 30 years). Now, that said, I'm on an "escape from NY" plan myself - no way I want to spend 100% of my retirement in this godforsaken hell hole (exaggerating for effect). But, I'm sure glad there's super-high income, wealthy folks lining up to buy my home for millions of dollars.

 

[LateToFIRE]

^^^
You know giving some more thought to this big-city-bashing (some of which I take full responsibility for my part in). I've lived in NYC for over 30 years. When I first arrived, I was wide-eyed and fascinated with the whole bright lights, big city thing. This was exactly where I wanted to be - right at the center of things. The city was smelly and messy at times, but was also exhilarating and exciting. This was where the action was. Somehow, I did not seem to mind all the negatives. It is by far, today, a much, much safer, cleaner, nicer city than the one I arrived in.

Fast forward to today, and the city is still magical, just not quite for me. The things that I loved about this city as a new college grad and/or an ambitious professional are still here, and I see all these younger folks really enjoying life here. But I have changed. My priorities have changed. And so it's just not for me anymore, at least not full-time. I would rather be a tourist than a resident. I now want peace and quiet, and even if NYers knew how to be peaceful and quiet (ha, ha), I don't want to share my peace and quiet with 8 million other people. I want to look out my window and see no one (farm animals are ok though).

Long way of saying, that though I pick on NYC sometimes, and I'm getting out, I do appreciate why so many people find it a desirable place to live (and I'm happy for them, especially as they will be helping to fund my retirement).

 

[Walt34]

Wow.
So you're saying that reasonably intelligent people exist who don't actually have smartphones?
So how do you get into a major league ballpark or other big event venue nowadays?

It's really very simple.

We don't go there. Ever.

We loathe crowds. Especially noisy ones.

I've been to one baseball game in my life. It was a Washington Senators game. I forget who won.

 

[MC Rider]

Well said LateToFire. The big city has action and work and people and fun and everything. This is great when you are young but at this point I also want peace and quiet. And like Walt34 I probably won't be going to any more Metallica concerts.

 

[Koolau]

There's a study that says it should cut traffic by 17% entering Lower Manhattan. Based on the study, it's not just rich people driving.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/27/nyregion/nyc-congestion-pricing-tolls-mta.html

https://new.mta.info/document/127761

I recall a study done when Honolulu was considering a light rail system. The study suggested that traffic into Honolulu would be cut by about 6%. That was a ridiculously small effect for the expense (estimated at the time to be about $3.5 Billion IIRC.) Still, 6% is 6% (certainly several hundred fewer cars per day into the heart of the city - if not a few thousand. Over crowding on buses would also be reduced.) Of course, it assumed people would actually ride the rail. IIRC ridership was expected to be in the neighborhood of 80,000 to 115,000 per day. So far the ridership is in the low 3000's per day (and the cost has ballooned to - depending on who you believe - $10 Billion to $14 Billion.)

My point is that it very much depends on who is doing the studies. Often times, the experts "want" a certain result to justify a certain project or (in the case of NYC) tax. My guess at the time the Rail studies were performed (10 years ago or so) was that ridership would dramatically fail projections and cost overruns would be extreme. Turns out I was right and the experts were wrong. Big surprise - since the "experts" were clearly "pro" rail.

So whether the $15 will have a measurable effect, whether the tax will be expanded or whether it will just be one more "tax" is yet to be determined - the experts and their studies, not withstanding. As always, YMMV. I don't have a dog in the hunt but am familiar with "studies."

 

[GenXguy]

So whether the $15 will have a measurable effect, whether the tax will be expanded or whether it will just be one more "tax" is yet to be determined - the experts and their studies, not withstanding. As always, YMMV. I don't have a dog in the hunt but am familiar with "studies."

Yeah, I'm not really sold on the study, either. And it's not going to affect me. I've only been to New York once in my life and am not interested in returning, plus I wouldn't be driving into that area if I did go.

 

[Koolau]

Yeah, I'm not really sold on the study, either. And it's not going to affect me. I've only been to New York once in my life and am not interested in returning, plus I wouldn't be driving into that area if I did go.

My first visit to NYC was ca 1970. I treated myself to a "vacation" to celebrate university graduation and securing a good j*b at Megacorp. A school buddy and I threw sleeping bags into the back of a clapped out station wagon and drove from the Midwest to the east coast via Montreal (from Vermont/New Hampshire/Maine to South Carolina and back - in 10 days.) We drove right through Manhattan just to say we had done it. I'm glad I did it but would never want to do it again - $15 or not.

 

[MC Rider]

The experts are pro rail because they were bought and paid for by the rail builders. I'm assuming it was business as usual.

 

[Koolau]

The experts are pro rail because they were bought and paid for by the rail builders. I'm assuming it was business as usual.

The real impetus for the rail was providing excellent union j*bs. NO one (who has an uncle, brother, wife, cousin, in-law/our-law, etc. in the union would vote against that.)

BUT, update, update, update...

Honolulu rail ridership has dropped - again.

https://www.khon2.com/local-news/skyline-average-daily-ridership-even-lower-than-last-year/

 

[MC Rider]

The real impetus for the rail was providing excellent union j*bs. NO one (who has an uncle, brother, wife, cousin, in-law/our-law, etc. in the union would vote against that.)

BUT, update, update, update...

Honolulu rail ridership has dropped - again.

https://www.khon2.com/local-news/skyline-average-daily-ridership-even-lower-than-last-year/

Ah well, no need to put much effort into wondering why. “We know that in the portion we operate now often times the system runs faster in peak times but often times,” he explained. “The problem is it doesn’t go to the places that people want.”


Reminds me of the trains in Los Angeles. You might think they would run one right into LAX. But did they?Of course not.

 

[RxMan]

That's assuming you have E-Z-Pass. If not, it's $17.63. Considering it costs billions to maintain it, that's not unreasonable. The world's busiest motor vehicle bridge, carrying over 104 million vehicles a year. I lived in NYC and remember when they built the lower deck to double the traffic volume. We used to refer to the lower deck as the Martha Washington Bridge.

Yeah, that is an easy pass for me.

 

[ArmchairMillionaire23]

Wow.
So you're saying that reasonably intelligent people exist who don't actually have smartphones?
So how do you get into a major league ballpark or other big event venue nowadays?

So far we've been able to get paper tickets mailed to us for all the concerts except one. We're seeing the Friday/Sunday Metallica tour this summer and didn't notice that they were "SmartTix" until after I purchased them due to the hurry of trying to get decent seats during the pre-sale. I called TicketMaster as well as the stadium box office and they promise that if I bring my online ticket purchase receipt, ticket/confirmation numbers and a photo ID each night to the box office window that they will print out tickets for us and we will be able to get into the venue and our seats.
Hopefully this works, as it's 6 hours from home and we have 3 nights worth of hotels already booked.

 

[donheff]

I like visiting NYC and welcome the change. Public transportation there is good and taxis and other ride service are everywhere for the well-heeled. Leave the car behind. Do the same if you visit DC.

I just returned from a biking trip in the Netherlands to see the tulips and marveled once again at how enjoyable it is to walk in most European city centers. In the Netherlands, I think they just rely on the bike traffic to make driving a PITA and hold down car congestion. On the other hand, the bike congestion can be intimidating for visitors not used to it.