I vote to call it a Bear Market!

In many ways, yes, I do. All the things you mention were certainly major shocks to the system, and I would never minimize them (especially 9/11) but in each case, at least a clear path forward was identified as to how to recover. Certainly not everyone agreed on that path, but at least we knew (generally) what course we were going to be on.

I look at the headlines now (take the last two weeks, for example, but even going back further), and all I see is continued chaos, and expectations for more chaos in the weeks ahead. Not only not much agreement on how to address any of the major issues that face us, but outright fear, confusion, and even hatred being expressed as well. I don't want to take this thread in a political direction, so I will stop there. But I think it's hard to dispute that we are living in times of massive uncertainty. It's hard for me to believe that the markets can thrive in a situation like this.


Worse than Pearl Harbor/WWII? Assassination of Presidents (Kennedy/attempt on Reagan)? Turmoil of Vietnam? 15% inflation in the 70's?

I don't think we are in all that horrible of times right now. No major wars, low employment, low inflation, solid GDP. We will muddle through just fine and this will just be another blip on the long term growth of the US.
 
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VTI down only 18%. It's a 'correction'. I'm blowing my trumpet loudly from the sidelines as it heads down, though! (Hoping to buy VPGDX and AMJVX on a serious discount, and collect some phat dividends.)
 
In many ways, yes, I do. All the things you mention were certainly major shocks to the system, and I would never minimize them (especially 9/11) but in each case, at least a clear path forward was identified as to how to recover. Certainly not everyone agreed on that path, but at least we knew (generally) what course we were going to be on.

I look at the headlines now (take the last two weeks, for example, but even going back further), and all I see is continued chaos, and expectations for more chaos in the weeks ahead. Not only not much agreement on how to address any of the major issues that face us, but outright fear, confusion, and even hatred being expressed as well. I don't want to take this thread in a political direction, so I will stop there. But I think it's hard to dispute that we are living in times of massive uncertainty. It's hard for me to believe that the markets can thrive in a situation like this.

Reading a bit into your reasoning, but staying off the verboten subjects too much, things will probably be clearer by 2020/21 at the latest.
 
Worse than Pearl Harbor/WWII? Assassination of Presidents (Kennedy/attempt on Reagan)? Turmoil of Vietnam? 15% inflation in the 70's?

I don't think we are in all that horrible of times right now. No major wars, low employment, low inflation, solid GDP. We will muddle through just fine and this will just be another blip on the long term growth of the US.

In that first sentence you left out the Trojan War! :)

Seriously, much of the chaos is easily walked back. The trade war can be negotiated, the government close down is completely artificial, etc. Some who have been bearish (and wrong) now trot out the negatives but there always has to be risk that goes along with possible rewards.

I may be guilty of too rosy a view but I don't let that set my investment methodology.
 
Reading a bit into your reasoning, but staying off the verboten subjects too much, things will probably be clearer by 2020/21 at the latest.


I don't disagree with that. But I'm afraid this next year, maybe 2 years, could be pretty rough. I don't see this as being a minor blip. Just my opinion, time will tell if I'm right or not.
 
I don't think we are in all that horrible of times right now. No major wars, low employment, low inflation, solid GDP. We will muddle through just fine and this will just be another blip on the long term growth of the US.

The reasons you quote (extremely low unemployment, solid GDP, someone else mentioned crowded restaurants, etc.) are some reasons WHY I'm bearish. When things are going amazingly well, history suggests the most likely direction is down. Corporate profits as a share of revenue are about as high as they've ever been, while employee wages are near as low as they've been. I hear both political parties making waves about wages, which makes me think wages will rise over the next decade as profits levels fall. Again, stocks are forward-looking, so they anticipate what's likely to happen in the future, not what's happening today. Perhaps I'm too early, but logically, with the economy so good, and the stock market having anticipated tax reform and deregulation (in a big jump shortly after 2016 election) how much better can earnings get? When things are great and expectations are high for continued profit growth, it takes huge surprises to move the market up. But with high expectations, it only takes relatively minor negative shocks to move the market down. On the contrary, I've got this great email I sent to my friends on March 7, 2009 suggesting they buy stocks (or at least don't sell) and a couple of my reasons were that I was still seeing people go to Starbucks, there were no breadlines, etc.
 
I don't disagree with that. But I'm afraid this next year, maybe 2 years, could be pretty rough. I don't see this as being a minor blip. Just my opinion, time will tell if I'm right or not.

+1

there's much more to this than just purely economic forces
 
The reasons you quote (extremely low unemployment, solid GDP, someone else mentioned crowded restaurants, etc.) are some reasons WHY I'm bearish. When things are going amazingly well, history suggests the most likely direction is down. Corporate profits as a share of revenue are about as high as they've ever been, while employee wages are near as low as they've been. I hear both political parties making waves about wages, which makes me think wages will rise over the next decade as profits levels fall. Again, stocks are forward-looking, so they anticipate what's likely to happen in the future, not what's happening today. Perhaps I'm too early, but logically, with the economy so good, and the stock market having anticipated tax reform and deregulation (in a big jump shortly after 2016 election) how much better can earnings get? When things are great and expectations are high for continued profit growth, it takes huge surprises to move the market up. But with high expectations, it only takes relatively minor negative shocks to move the market down. On the contrary, I've got this great email I sent to my friends on March 7, 2009 suggesting they buy stocks (or at least don't sell) and a couple of my reasons were that I was still seeing people go to Starbucks, there were no breadlines, etc.

I find some interesting stuff in your thoughts, notably that you are concerned by optimism... here... on a message board of people who are often contrarian, long term, buy and hold investors, many of whom are not subject to the type of emotional swings you look for when calling a bear. Conversely, I’ve seen a number of pessimists around here and elsewhere for a long time. If all of us optimists and pessimists bide our time long enough, we will be correct.

I’m taking nibbles, letting dividends reinvest and keeping my investments on autopilot. I will not change that behavior regardless of bear or bull, same as in 2008, and ultimately even a flat market or prolonged bear is tolerable at this stage for me. Since I and most here don’t move major amounts of money on the emotions of others, I’m not sure how much value there really is in forecasting one way or another. Those who disagree are mostly already in bonds because that suits them. I also don’t see much parallel between Japan and the US historically or economically as pertains to market levels and government manipulation, but YMMV.
 
In many ways, yes, I do. All the things you mention were certainly major shocks to the system, and I would never minimize them (especially 9/11) but in each case, at least a clear path forward was identified as to how to recover. Certainly not everyone agreed on that path, but at least we knew (generally) what course we were going to be on.

I look at the headlines now (take the last two weeks, for example, but even going back further), and all I see is continued chaos, and expectations for more chaos in the weeks ahead. Not only not much agreement on how to address any of the major issues that face us, but outright fear, confusion, and even hatred being expressed as well. I don't want to take this thread in a political direction, so I will stop there. But I think it's hard to dispute that we are living in times of massive uncertainty. It's hard for me to believe that the markets can thrive in a situation like this.



-1. I am generally one who is less optimistic than the market or people in general but if one sticks to the economic basics (gdp inflation unemployment). Things are not bad.

We had a good 2016 and a fantastic 2017. Ytd we are only down about 8.5 percent total stock market. After two good years having an off year is normal.

This is a pause or correction at this point. Not a bear market yet.

Unless something bad happens at a macro level (serious trade war, military war, brexit meltdown, financial collapse somewhere) the fundamentals are too solid to support a crash. These risks are always present and usually don’t happen so I don’t try to time the market around them.
 
I'm a partial pessimist. Optimism is admirable, and I am 50% optimistic. However, the facts that we are fed do change. For example, Q3 GDP is lowered slightly, but the Q4 projections are also lower, and we will see more accuracy when the computers start running early in the year.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jjkina...worries-about-govt-shutdown-fed/#3246e7ad690c

"We won’t see official numbers for the first estimate of Q4 and annual 2018 GDP until January 30. But for now we can keep watching the Atlanta Fed’s GDPNow model estimates. The latest forecast, from Friday, is for Q4 to show a 2.7% seasonally adjusted annual GDP rate. That’s down from the previous forecast of 2.9%."

Other factors, which are not measurable (and not mentionable), have significantly lowered faith/belief in the market and economy. Of course that is IMO, and we shall see what we shall see (as Mom used to say).
 
So, is it a black bear or a grizzly bear?

And even more important... Is it attacking because it sees you as a threat, or does it see you as prey?

https://www.businessinsider.com/clint-emerson-navy-seal-survive-bear-attack-2016-12

If playing dead does not cause the bear to lose interest, you are the rare victim of a predatory attack. The bear intends to kill and possibly eat you, so fight back with any available weapons—a knife, sticks, rocks, your fists. Aim for the eyes and nose, where the bear is most sensitive.
 
Other factors, which are not measurable (and not mentionable), have significantly lowered faith/belief in the market and economy.

Yep, that is my view also. It's probably true that, over the long term, the market is a reflection of the economic basics (gdp, inflation, unemployment), but in the short term, it can drop a whole lot in response to many non-economic things, whether that seems rational to us, or not. I think this is one of those times.
 
Yep, that is my view also. It's probably true that, over the long term, the market is a reflection of the economic basics (gdp, inflation, unemployment), but in the short term, it can drop a whole lot in response to many non-economic things, whether that seems rational to us, or not. I think this is one of those times.

I think it can be perfectly rational for investors to think, "I've made a killing in the stock market over the past 10 years, I'm now 10 years older than during the financial crisis and 10 years closer to retirement, and I simply want to get off the roller coaster."
 
I think it can be perfectly rational for investors to think, "I've made a killing in the stock market over the past 10 years, I'm now 10 years older than during the financial crisis and 10 years closer to retirement, and I simply want to get off the roller coaster."

I don’t believe that the retail investor is controlling the market.
 
WOW! Just looked at the markets also.
I beleive the bear has woke from his winter nap. I just hope it is a nice bear and not a bad bear and it goes back to sleep in the near future. LOL
 
I think it can be perfectly rational for investors to think, "I've made a killing in the stock market over the past 10 years, I'm now 10 years older than during the financial crisis and 10 years closer to retirement, and I simply want to get off the roller coaster."


+1, Agreed. That basically describes my thought process, although I was retired before I got off the roller coaster.
 
So, is it a black bear or a grizzly bear?

And even more important... Is it attacking because it sees you as a threat, or does it see you as prey?

https://www.businessinsider.com/clint-emerson-navy-seal-survive-bear-attack-2016-12
The bears are sleepy. Let's not wake them.

I love the bit about grizzly bears having federal protection, so if you shoot one there's an investigation. Really? I'm going to just stand there and let something eat me? I had a different plan.
 
-1. Not yet.

The S&P high was 2940.91. It closed today at 2467.42. That's -16.1% down. Only 4 more percents to go. It may make it there before New Year. Plenty of time for us to celebrate NY and start 2019 in the pits. Why rush it?

OK - I think you can call it a bear now!

S&P closed at 2351.10 today, which is 79.99% of the recent high.

Hurrah, it is officially a bear market.

We can now all celebrate Christmas with the bear awakened. :dance:

Do we have a word for the market being down 30%? Let's prepare to celebrate NY with that milestone too.
 
So, is it a black bear or a grizzly bear?

And even more important... Is it attacking because it sees you as a threat, or does it see you as prey?

https://www.businessinsider.com/clint-emerson-navy-seal-survive-bear-attack-2016-12

If playing dead does not cause the bear to lose interest, you are the rare victim of a predatory attack. The bear intends to kill and possibly eat you, so fight back with any available weapons—a knife, sticks, rocks, your fists. Aim for the eyes and nose, where the bear is most sensitive.


Its color is brown!

Should have deployed my pepper spray, but it's too late. Have to play dead now, and hope for the best.

north-america-grizzly-bear-625x450.jpg
 
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