Invisible Inflation continues

[ladelfina]

a 450 gram loaf of Italian bread at SuperWalmart for USD$0.60 usually (not sure how much that is in yur euro Monopoly money)

$.60 = €.50 or thereabouts right now. Your 450g loaf at $.60 transates into €1.11/kilo. Lower, but I'm not sure the difference between your price and the Franch/Spanish price would cover your import costs. Also, not sure what the market is for days-old bread..! 

Since most of the bread sold in the US is probably of the rectangular, sliced, packaged loaf variety, it's probably a little easier to compare: the prices are going to stick within a certain range. In Europe, it's a little different: sliced rectangular loaves are available, but most people choose a less "industrial" product and there are more small bakeries. I think the €3.50 price above is a Milano price (read $$$) for what would be called in the US an 'artisan' loaf by a local baker. The bread I buy in the supermarket costs about €2.79/kilo (about $1.50/lb.).

This thing with bread is fascinating to me because:
-the ingredients are few, basic, inexpensive, and have been readily available for centuries
-it's simple to make, and follows certain laws of nature, so "technology" has a limited impact on its production
-it's consumed in much of the world, and by rich and poor alike
-it's a basic food, not a luxury in most places (in some places, I know.. any food is a luxury, but I think you get my gist)
-it's usually made relatively locally, so transportation/importation costs are less of an issue w/r/t price

Has walmart not come to Italy yet?

No, but we do have IKEA.

As for the average Italian, Justin, they are screaming bloody murder.. Things have been VASTly complicated by the entrance into the euro, as the switchover gave businesses the opportunity for a big one-off price hike, so it's hard to analyse what prices "should" be.. The pizza that cost 8,000 lire (€4.00) in 2000 now costs €9.

They are all complaining about the same things (well, almost) that you guys are complaining about.. A sampling from a newpaper forum of about a year ago (when this topic was more in the news):

"From 2002 to 2003 the annual fee for cemetary lighting and maintenance in Rome, under the ACEA monopoly, has gone up 73.83% according to the bills in my possession."

"With the new year the Express Mail stamp has gone down a few cents. Too bad that they reduced considerably the amount of weight permitted. Result: doubled mailing costs."

"My father uses an LPG tank for the kitchen. In 2000 a tank cost 45,000 lire [€23.24], now [2004] €50."

"I'm a university student and to partially maintain myself (I still live with my family) I naturally work off the books as a waiter. 8 hours of work for €25 twice a week. I assure you that when I was working back in the days of the lira, with 10,000 lire in my pocket I was a king; now instead with 5 euros I don't even know if I'll be able to make it home.."

"With €2600 net per month I felt pretty privileged until the arrival of the euro which has taken me back to my lifestyle 15 years ago when I made about 2,000,000 lire[€1000]. I've cut my car costs, sold my BMW 520 for a Ford Fiesta, I've cut out trips, I've given up the croissant with my coffee; I only permit myself social communication expenses like mobile phone, Internet and computer. My savings account has collapsed."  [this writer is a doctor.]


They are all also up in arms over the ISTAT figures (like our CPI) that reported inflation in 2004 at about 2.2%.. Same situation: cell phones cost less, but who cares!!? Report the rises in basic necessities!

Somebody has the solution:

1) prendere Luigi Biggeri (presidente Istat)
2) dargli due bei cazzotti
3) prendersi denuncia per lesioni
4) difendersi dicendo che le percosse sono solo percepite ma non reali

"1) take Luigi Biggeri (president of ISTAT)
2) punch his lights out
3) get accused of assault
4) defend yourself saying the punches were only perceived, not real" 

 

[justin]

$.60 = €.50 or thereabouts right now. Your 450g loaf at $.60 transates into €1.11/kilo. Lower, but I'm not sure the difference between your price and the Franch/Spanish price would cover your import costs. Also, not sure what the market is for days-old bread..!

Since most of the bread sold in the US is probably of the rectangular, sliced, packaged loaf variety, it's probably a little easier to compare: the prices are going to stick within a certain range. In Europe, it's a little different: sliced rectangular loaves are available, but most people choose a less "industrial" product and there are more small bakeries. I think the €3.50 price above is a Milano price (read $$$) for what would be called in the US an 'artisan' loaf by a local baker. The bread I buy in the supermarket costs about €2.79/kilo (about $1.50/lb.).

I was talking about $0.60 for a loaf of "Italian" bread - fresh baked, 450 g, long and oval in shape. I think for $0.75 I can get the artisan bread - with herbs and spices mixed in the dough and/or topped with herbs/spices/cheese.

Maybe walmart will grace italy with its presence one day. Then you'll see some deflation.

 

[cabbage]

With DH retired and our income cut, I've gone to making a science out of grocery shopping. I read the grocery ad as if it's Grisham's latest and really work those double coupons to maximum advantage. If nothing else I feel like I'm at least limiting what the Man gets!

 

[ladelfina]

Justin, I can sincerely say I wouldn't really look forward to Wal*Mart in Italy. I don't mean to be snotty; I'm sure the Wal*Mart bread is OK.. prob. a lot better than Wonder Bread, but sprinkling some oregano or cheese on industrial dough doesn't make it "artisan".

What I meant by artisanal bread is bread that has a long proofing time, is baked in small batches without additives or preservatives, preferably in a wood-fired oven. It's a whole 'nother animal. Yes, one will have to pay more for such a bread; that's why I glossed over the €3.50 price. But I'm still paying €2.79 for mass-produced bread.

The point of all the price numbers was to try and point out alarmingly high, widespread inflation in Europe for "bread". I don't know how they got the numbers, whether they took an average of all types of bread available or not...

--
cabbage, you are right.. ya gotta shop the sales. I was always amazed at how few people seemed to have been stocking up on specials in the US. Sometimes retired folks, often immigrants, but everyone else seems to be more into the prepared salads, frozen entrees, etc. Never could figure out the 'rotisserie' chicken for $6-7 when you can get a $3 chicken and put it in the oven. I got the feeling there was an "I'm worth it" factor, and that they would be embarrassed to be seen with 12 packages of pasta or paper towels when they were half-off.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

The new super wal mart opened up about 2 weeks ago. Its actually the closest store to us and the only one I dont have to go on a major road to reach. I can see why the other supermarkets are freaking out. Very neat, fully loaded produce section. Extensive meat selection. Plus I could buy a loaf of bread and a childs bike helmet on one occasion, and milk and a car charger for a cell phone on another. Prices arent as good as "loss leader" sales at the more expensive places to shop, but they're almost as good and their every day prices are about 30-40% lower on a lot of items. Selection is not as good as some others, but they have all the basics. Customers are completely coming from the cheap to mid range supermarkets. The expensive markets parking lots are still full.

I'd feel bad for the small businesses in the area, but i've been in all of them and their service, selection and pricing stink. Not just sub par...fully smellerocious.

But anyhow, back to topic...we had a loaf of walmart store bakery made sourdough with our crab legs last night. Surprisingly good. Certainly not the quality one gets at the local snooty high end bakery, but pretty close and 1/4 the cost.

And way back to topic, shopping here is not only convenient and saves me gas and time, its on the whole well cheaper than the other places I shop. Certainly helps with the invisible inflation.

 

[justin]

Justin, I can sincerely say I wouldn't really look forward to Wal*Mart in Italy. I don't mean to be snotty; I'm sure the Wal*Mart bread is OK.. prob. a lot better than Wonder Bread, but sprinkling some oregano or cheese on industrial dough doesn't make it "artisan".

What I meant by artisanal bread is bread that has a long proofing time, is baked in small batches without additives or preservatives, preferably in a wood-fired oven. It's a whole 'nother animal. Yes, one will have to pay more for such a bread; that's why I glossed over the €3.50 price. But I'm still paying €2.79 for mass-produced bread.

You sure you're not French?

Enjoy that extremely overpriced hand made bread. I'm sure the (organic) wheat flour is hand-cut and ground on only the finest of millstones at a 17th century monastery. And the water is undoubtedly fresh from an Alpine spring and it has been filtered with the utmost quality, purity and taste in mind. The butter probably comes from a pedigree of bovine excellence dating back to the 14th century. And the yeast is of unquestionable quality and freshness and comes from a strain originally used in the palaces of the Medici's themselves.

I wonder how much better the Italian bread in Italy is compared to the Italian bread made by walmart? Cause walmart's bread is pretty dang good!

 

[justin]

Plus I could buy a loaf of bread and a childs bike helmet on one occasion, and milk and a car charger for a cell phone on another. Prices arent as good as "loss leader" sales at the more expensive places to shop, but they're almost as good and their every day prices are about 30-40% lower on a lot of items. Selection is not as good as some others, but they have all the basics. Customers are completely coming from the cheap to mid range supermarkets. The expensive markets parking lots are still full.

And way back to topic, shopping here is not only convenient and saves me gas and time, its on the whole well cheaper than the other places I shop. Certainly helps with the invisible inflation.

Very convenient, and low prices to boot.

If you enjoy spending 1+ hour every day running around town to buy your food and household items at a mutlitude of stores (the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, Snooty grocery store, etc) to get the utmost in quality and selection at a high price, then continue doing this.

For me, I look at purchasing the required groceries and household items as a chore. Said chore is usually dispatched once per week by a visit to my superwalmart that is 1.7 miles from my house. Time required - usually 1-1.5 hours. It's all about efficiency for me.

 

[HFWR]

Not sure about the bread... Mrs. Baird's whole-wheat for about a buck seventy-five, but I've got the loaf part down pat!!

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Enjoy that extremely overpriced hand made bread. I'm sure the (organic) wheat flour is hand-cut and ground on only the finest of millstones at a 17th century monastery. And the water is undoubtedly fresh from an Alpine spring and it has been filtered with the utmost quality, purity and taste in mind. The butter probably comes from a pedigree of bovine excellence dating back to the 14th century. And the yeast is of unquestionable quality and freshness and comes from a strain originally used in the palaces of the Medici's themselves.

Penn and Teller have a show on Showtime called, appropriately, Bullshit! I highly recommend it to anyone who has Showtime. Basically they debunk stuff, although the cynicism runs deeply. The one I watched last night was a prime example of your comments. They had a willing accomplice take a gourmand/oenophile to a fancy downtown restaurant. The waiter brough them out bruschetta, kobe beef with a reduction sauce and mashed potatoes, poached lobster and a whipped vanilla dessert topped with "25 year old cinnamon liquer".

The waiter laid it on even more thickly than you did. The bruschetta for example was artisan bread, hand picked tomatoes, basil and olive oil all raised organically and grown in the same small valley in tuscany. In fact, he went on so long and deep I would have been suspicious "oh...come on!".

The food was accompanied by "the most expensive wine in the wine cellar", and a description was read that was compatible with a $1000 bottle of wine.

The gourmands and oenophiles raved about the food and drink.

Now for the rest of the story. The "bruschetta" was made from day old bread bought at a gas station, tomatoes from a can, and olive oil bought at a convenience store/minimart. The kobe beef was from a frozen dinner and the reduction sauce was gravy from a can.. The "organic yukon gold mashed potatoes" were instant from a box that had been molded in a tuna fish can (complete with some of the juice) and then torched with a blow torch. The "lobster" was monkfish simmered in a can of stock. The vanilla dessert was the store brand version of 'cool whip' with some cinnamon schnaaps on it. The wine was bottled in New Jersey and sold for $1.99.

All made on a cart in the alley behind the restaurant by the shows special effects guy, who admittedly knows next to nothing about cooking.

Their upshot point about the show (titled something like "the best") was that we want to eat and drink the very best, and if we think we are, the mind has a fairly good influence over our feelings about the experience, which translates into satisfaction. Further, that with consideration of world history, even our 'crappy food' is pretty darn good compared with what most people have eaten, in most places, most of the time.

The gourmands/oenophiles at the end of the show were shown the hidden cameras and clued in as to what the food actually was, where it came from, and how it was prepared...looked pretty dang pissed.

Except for yanking those folks pants down, for which I'm sure they were well compensated in order to secure their agreement to be shown on television, it was pretty interesting.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Link to the show, watch the video. This guy professes to be a huge wine nut.

http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=best

Interesting articles linked as well.

 

[justin]

CFB - interesting show it sounds like! I think the "gourmet" nature of food and drink is 90% hype and image and 10% better quality food/drink (materials or preparation). Just because something costs more doesn't mean it is better. I personally like the quality and consistency of machine-made food products.

Please don't tell the French about this show. It may inflame their sense of national gustatory pride to the extent that they declare war on our inferior country. And the last thing the US needs is the French military on our front porches. Drinking our wine, insulting our food, and seducing our women with their fancy accents and berets.

 

[ladelfina]

seducing our women with their fancy accents and berets

Sounds like someone is jealous? 

Just to take this thread even further off topic, I remember reading year or two back something in the New Yorker to the effect that a number of wine "experts" could be easily fooled in blind taste testings--really blind, in that they were also blindfolded. Not only could they not distinguish the vintage, or even the types of grapes used, they could not, in some cases, distinguish red wine from white.

Now don't even get me started on bread, because Tuscany has the worst bread ever. No salt. No taste. Wonder Bread has a more enticing aroma. Another expatriate compared  Tuscan bread to toilet paper with added latex. I don't care if it's made by a machine or an artisan, it's baaad. In Rome the bread is revelatory: you've died and gone to bread heaven!

What I spend on bread (trying to get the 'non-Tuscan' kind), I more than make up for in savings on wine. About $1.65 for 750ml of a delicious Sangiovese at the local supermarket. I could get it for less if I wanted to visit the local wine cooperative, buy it in huge damigiane and bottle it myself.

I personally like the quality and consistency of machine-made food products.

I used to love them Space Food Sticks!

My hats off to P&T, but what CFB kind of glanced over is that to a large degree their premise is based on the potential embarrassment of the victim. Who knows what they really thought about what they were served..! P.S. Bruschetta is indeed usually made with stale bread, so no points there... It's a very humble dish that is "exalted" only in the US...like many of the other humble foods born of necessity and poverty that have been recently elevated to 'gourmet' status.

There really are foods that are better than others; buying them in a fancy store or restaurant doesn't guarantee the quality, only the price.

 

[Martha]

. . a number of wine "experts" could be easily fooled in blind taste testings--really blind, in that they were also blindfolded. Not only could they not distinguish the vintage, or even the types of grapes used, they could not, in some cases, distinguish red wine from white.

So JG, it is fine to drink white wine with your steak no matter what the CFB says.

 

[HFWR]

Most of us, especially JG, could give a rat's a$$ what anyone else "approves" of...

Sorry for ending that sentence with a preposition!

Added data point: bought my second and last bottle of Dom Perignon yesterday for St. Valentine's Day. Don't really like champagne anywho, especially not for $175 a pop...........

 

[Martha]

M
Added data point: bought my second and last bottle of Dom Perignon yesterday for St. Valentine's Day. Don't really like champagne anywho, especially not for $175 a pop...........

So does this mean the date didn't go well?

 

[HFWR]

Au contraire!! 8)

 

[ronin]

A pleasant California sparkler, like Hans Kornell, will set you back less than a fourth of that French swill. And a spectacular harvest of high quality grapes this year bodes well for prices in the near future.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

So JG, it is fine to drink white wine with your steak no matter what the CFB says. 

Thanks. I can not drink red wine for medical reasons. I have consumed my share over the years and don't really miss it much.

JG

 

[ladelfina]

New Yorker article: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020819fa_fact

 

[justin]

What I spend on bread (trying to get the 'non-Tuscan' kind), I more than make up for in savings on wine. About $1.65 for 750ml of a delicious Sangiovese at the local supermarket. I could get it for less if I wanted to visit the local wine cooperative, buy it in huge damigiane and bottle it myself.

damigiane - isn't that Italian for "box"? Cause the wine I buy at Superwalmart comes in a big box, and its real cheap.

 

[free4now]

The "Davis Wine Test" that Trillan referred to in the New Yorker is apparently an urban myth according to:

http://www.wineloverspage.com/randysworld/pinot02.phtml#DAVIS

and

http://itotd.com/articles/412/

Which notes:

Volunteers on the staff of Wine Spectator fared much better in their own version of the test, correctly guessing color 40 out of 42 times.

 

[free4now]

There are differences

A relative is an entrepreneur/businessman who used to work at a cosmetics company. He firmly believes that all shampoos work the same and differ only in the fragrances, foaming agents, thickeners, and colors used to deceive the buyer that there are differences. He believes the same line of reasoning for most personal care products, and many foods as well. He makes shopping decisions pretty much strictly based on cost per ounce.

Personally I have sensitive combination skin and fine hair that doesn't respond well to normal hair care products, so I am very attuned to which products work for me and which don't. I generally find myself buying products that are at the top end of the grocery store selection, or at the bottom end of the salon warehouse selection. I often will do "side by side" tests alternating using two different products to see which works better.

When I was travelling through SE Asia, I was somewhat surprised to find that basically nobody used high quality personal care products... the highest end of what is generally available there is about at the level of Suave or low end grocery store products here in the USA.

Yet most everyone looked just as well groomed as in the USA, with shiny strong hair and blemish free skin. My guess is that because they don't eat as rich foods as us westerners and because they get more exercise in daily life, they don't have as many issues with problem skin and sensitivity that we have over here.

I recently decided to see if I could save some money by shaving with an old fashioned single blade GEM razor. Single blades seem to be more of a commodity, costing about 10-15 cents each. The razor I used was an old one found in the basement probably from the 1950's or 1960's. In it's heyday it was probably considered the state of the art in shaving.

But using it today, I find the weight and single blade design caused significantly more nicks and irritation than a cheap double blade disposable razor. I'm used to a more comfortable shave and I decided the irritation just wasn't worth it, so I'm back to shaving with double blade razors that cost about 60 cents each.

To get back to the subject of this thread, my point is that hedonic adjustments are not just about getting more songs on your ipod or cheaper DVD players. It's also about the little personal care things like having two blades on your shaver rather than one that can make real differences. So some of these things are real improvements that many of us actually benefit from.

Of course I'm not saying that I need or would buy the new 5 blade razor... I'll leave that for the Starbucks-drinking, Department-store cosmetics-wearing, Hummer-driving crowd.

 

[HFWR]

I usually start out buying the cheapest foods/toiletries/cleaning products, etc., then gradually move up the chain until I find one I like.

Why pay extra for pinto beans? Cache?

On the other hand, store-brand "Cheerios" get soggy the instant milk hits them, and store-brand "Wheeties" taste like cardboard...

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Well, you might think the foodies were thinking the stuff stunk while putting on a brave face, but they were raving about it. The guy stuffing his face with frozen dinner pot roast aka kobe beef was telling his date how much he enjoyed the 'intense beefiness' and how the canned gravy aka reduction sauce 'really made the meal'. On the flip side, the 22 year old girl out on a date with a guy old enough to perhaps be her grandpa, was raving about the food and wine, as was her date. One guy seemed a little 'eh...' about the food, from his expression, but he kept eating it and didnt complain or try to send anything back.

Experts indeed are frequently confounded by cheap bottles. I think it was two-buck-chuck Charles Shaw Shiraz that made it into the top 25 or top 50 in a broad taste testing, IIRC from a large group of NY tasting judges. I posted it, so its around here somewhere. The judges were incredibly embarrassed by their voting once the labels were revealed.

Champagne...? Dom is ok but its middle of the pack as far as i'm concerned. For a spendy bottle, try the Piper Heidsiek...should be 25-35 bucks. Probably the best I've tried, but perhaps not the best for every taste. For a decent price bottle, go with Piper Sonoma, the california winery analog to the french Piper that makes the Heidsiek. Usually $11-14 a bottle.

I'm sorry about not being able to let go of Johnny's wine pairing. His original comment came in response to his "possum living" where he said "nothing but filet mignon and chardonnay for me". I dont think that had much to do with medical conditions or poor taste, but rather it was the two most expensive sounding things he could think of at the time...which led to an entire discussion on the Hangtown Fry IIRC...

 

[ladelfina]

fireme, thanks for the link to the "Interesting Thing of the Day" site.. looks.. interesting.

I'm still pretty amazed that even 5% of random people working at the Wine Spectator, and thus presumably pretty knowledgeable/interested in the subject, still couldn't tell red wine from white, though! So it's not totally a myth.

a damigiana is the name for a huge flask, in older English texts I have seen it referred to as a "demijohn"; the name comes from a Persian city that was once big in glass-making.

Wine is def. one of the things I have a hard time shelling out much money for; there's just too much decent cheap wine out there.. (no offense to the connoisseurs on the board)!