looking at a prius

[F4mandolin]

The Prius is a car not a religion.

I'm not too happy with religion either....

 

[Malcolm2]

I think many (not all) that buy the Prius don't do the math, but it somehow it makes them 'feel good.' Not a bad marketing gimmick.
Not worth the extra $10k upfront to us, break even takes way too long. We like to keep our vehicles for more than 10 years and would also be worried about long term extra costs post warranty.

 

[urn2bfree]

MPG is a lousy statistic. In other countries they use Gallons per 100 miles. It makes the comparisons more understandable.
Here is the classic example showing why:

Family has two cars: a gas guzzling SUV getting 10mpg and a sedan getting 20mpg.
They must get One new car and the size of the replacement will be similar. They want to save on fuel costs.
Both cars are used exactly the same amount- 10,000 miles a year.

Replacement car #1- a minivan to replace the SUV which will get 20mpg. A doubling of mileage 20mpg more!
Replacement car#2- a hybrid which will replace the sedan and get 50mpg. More than doubling the mpg an increase of 30mpg more!

Which car should they choose? A gain of 20mpg or a gain of 30mpg?
Using mpg you are incorrectly led to believe you should get the hybrid.
Using gallons per 100 miles it becomes clear from a fuel standpoint the minivan is the better choice.
Really?
Yes, really.
SUV uses 10 gallons per 100 miles
replacement minivan uses 5.
Savings 5 gallons per 100 miles driven.
Sedan uses 5 gallons per 100 miles.
Replacement hybrid uses 2.
Savings of 3 gallons per 100 miles.
5 gallons saved is bigger than 3 gallons saved.

Let's start using the Gallons per 100 miles stat when we discuss fuel efficiency! Insist on it in your car discussions that concern fuel use. Drop MPG from your vocab!

 

[bUU]

I totally agree that one would have a hard time justifying the payback on any Prius.

We've done the math a few times (last three times we bought cars, actually) and as late as last October it still has too high of a cost for the payback, even if we assign a pretty significant value to its environmental factors. From our standpoint, soon, but not quite yet.

 

[pb4uski]

....The insurance is less than my Subaru WRX. ...

Really? The insurance for the tortoise is less than insurance for the hare?

Not a very relevant comparison - the WRX is a performance car, the Prius, well.....

 

[Fishingmn]

I really like my 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid if you are looking for a different option. I'm getting 41 mpg in the summer (less in MN winter). I personally like the styling much better. It's also very comfortable inside, seats 4 easily and the Sync system is really nice. I put on 30k/year as a Realtor so I think the math works out better on the gas savings in that case plus I found a used one with 1500 miles on it when the original owner decided to get something else. 3 years later I have 85k on it and no real mechanical issues.

 

[sparkler]

All this Prius love, and yet not much analysis.

Just my two cents...I don't get the Prius. If you love the hybrid technology then I would say - go for it. But if your intent is either to save money or to save the planet, then you need to think hard because the Prius does neither.

For a tiny subcompact car it is a very expensive car compared to gasoline versions. Where I live the Prius goes for around $10k more than a Corolla.

It's pretty clear then that the Prius is no bargain, any way you look at it
.

The Prius is not a tiny subcompact! LOL. It is a strangely shaped car but it's interior is mid sized. We have a 2005 and we can pack alot into it. Now there are several models, so I guess there is a tiny one available.

Not everyone is looking for a "bargain", but we have 145K miles and no signs of any problems, with regular checkups. Still haven't changes ANY brakes yet due to the engineering of the brakes, and we do lots of local driving. And if the gas prices go over $4 I believe it will prove to be a great bargain for us....

Can't commment on the price for the OP but we love our Prius.

 

[Chuckanut]

Then add in the extra costs for interest/registration/maintenance.

What are the extra costs for maintenance?

What interest rate are you using to calculate the extra $150 a month? And, what is the life of the loan? I ask because Toyota has in the past offered 1% loans to some buyers, and, I suspect the majority of the car's life will be spent with no loan payments at all.

Also, $3.80 a gallon underestimates the average cost of gasoline over the life of the car. A modern vehicle probably has a life of at least 12 years if it averages 12,000 miles per year. I would love to see gasoline average $3.80 a gallon over the nest 12 years, but, I doubt it will. My guess is the average will be at least $5 a gallon. But, I hope you are right!

I do agree that only looking at mpg is misleading. My point is that the assumptions one makes when doing the comparison must be realistic for each person's situation.

Most likely, the cheapest car is a 3+ year old used one of the type you want and need. And the best way to save gas is to leave the car parked. So a guy with a gas hog SUV who takes mass transit to work every day, probably is far more green and saves a bundle more money than a driver of a 50+ mpg Prius. Or even the driver of the mis-named 'zero emission" electric cars.

 

[Chuckanut]

I would never give up a perfectly good car in order to buy a hybrid car just to save on gas money.

+1

 

[Lcountz]

If the minivan uses 5 gallons per 100 miles, at 4.00 per gallon, that costs 20.00

In 1000 miles, the minivan uses 50 gallons or 200.00 worth.

The hybrid uses 2 gallons per 100 miles. at 4.00 per gallon, it costs 8.00.

In a 1000 miles the hybrid uses 20 gallons of fuel, or 80.00 worth.

How is the mini van more economical please?

 

[bUU]

The math is more complicated than you've made it out to be. There are two scenarios:

#1 = new minivan @20 mpg + old sedan @20 mpg
OR
#2 = old SUV @10 mpg + new hybrid @50 mpg

 

[travelover]

I think many (not all) that buy the Prius don't do the math, but it somehow it makes them 'feel good.'.......

Right, as say, opposed to a Lexus or a BMW, which are bought because they provide so much more value and utility.

 

[timwalsh300]

I bought my Prius new for $21k, and after five years and 80k miles I still get excited about it. I think that's rarely heard from other car owners. I've gotten slightly better than 50 mpg over its lifetime, and done only regular maintenance: conventional oil every 5k miles, new tires at 60k, and new wiper inserts just last month. The brakes look like they'll last forever. Some batteries have failed in hot climates around 100-150k miles, but it mostly seems to occur when the cooling fan gets choked with dog hair. I checked mine recently and it looked pristine (I don't have a dog), so I'm expecting no trouble.

Discussions about "the math" of buying a Prius are a lot like discussions about "the math" of tax policy and federal budgets: inescapably colored by ideology. Personally, I don't see a $10k premium. Like I said, I paid $21k for mine. A new Corolla with an automatic transmission runs $15-16k, but I own a Corolla too and they are clearly not in the same class: the Prius has substantially more leg and cargo room. Regardless, after enough miles the Prius always wins in terms of total cost of ownership. It might take 150k miles, but it still wins. If you don't want to wait that long, and you don't need a mid-size vehicle, then a Corolla or Civic or Fit is a fine choice too.

Tim

 

[urn2bfree]

If the minivan uses 5 gallons per 100 miles, at 4.00 per gallon, that costs 20.00

In 1000 miles, the minivan uses 50 gallons or 200.00 worth.

The hybrid uses 2 gallons per 100 miles. at 4.00 per gallon, it costs 8.00.

In a 1000 miles the hybrid uses 20 gallons of fuel, or 80.00 worth.

How is the mini van more economical please?

Ah, but
In a 1000 miles, the SUV uses 100 gallons or $400.00 worth. Or a $200 savings by using the minivan, instead.

The sedan uses 50 gallons per 1000 miles. at 4.00 per gallon, it costs $200. Switching to the hybrid only saves $120.

Just looking at one half of the trade is missing the point.
The question is which of the two scenarios really saves the family the most.
Remember they must maintain car sizes (roughly) and can only afford switching out one -NOT both vehicles.
Using MPG comparisons it looks like the hybrid increases things more, but it does not save more. Using Gallons per mile makes the comparison more clear.

Here is the math.

#1 = new minivan @20 mpg + old sedan @20 mpg
Total fuel costs are $4000 for 10,000 miles on each vehicle using you gas price.

#2 = old SUV @10 mpg + new hybrid @ 50 mpg
Total fuel costs are $4800 for 10,000 miles on each vehicle using you gas price


So better for them to switch out for the minivan than for the hybrid and have $800 more every year.

 

[web_diva]

I have heard the following things about the Prius and would be interested in an owner's POV:

1. the battery the car requires uses HAZMATs, so it's not really green to build or dispose of
2. there is an EPA disposal fee associated with getting rid of the battery which will need replacing every 8-10 years depending on driving conditions (that is why they are often abandoned on side of the road in CA)
3. cost to insure a hybrid vehicle is higher
4. in an accident, a firefighter's job working on a hybrid takes special additional training

 

[martyp]

I have heard the following things about the Prius and would be interested in an owner's POV:

1. the battery the car requires uses HAZMATs, so it's not really green to build or dispose of
2. there is an EPA disposal fee associated with getting rid of the battery which will need replacing every 8-10 years depending on driving conditions (that is why they are often abandoned on side of the road in CA)
3. cost to insure a hybrid vehicle is higher
4. in an accident, a firefighter's job working on a hybrid takes special additional training

Re #3: At least where I live, insuring my Prius is no more expensive than any other car I've owned. It should be a factor in any purchase decision but it is going to vary based on your own personal circumstances. Just call your insurance agent and figure out if it make economic sense in your case.

As for #'s 1, 2, and 3: I don't know and I don't care. I'm guessing that there aren't a lot of 10 yr old Prius's out there so if there are particular disposal issues then they haven't become a national news story yet. In any case, all the major car companies have hybrid models. Battery disposal is not isolated to the Prius. You might as well complain about all the UPS's that are out there in homes and business too.

 

[Bestwifeever]

...
2. there is an EPA disposal fee associated with getting rid of the battery which will need replacing every 8-10 years depending on driving conditions (that is why they are often abandoned on side of the road in CA)....

Seriously? Please cite a source for data on Priuses (Prii?) often abandoned on side of the road in CA. I just told DH our next car when the time comes will be a hybrid, but I had not heard about them being abandoned.

 

[Al in Ohio]

Lets beat this thing to death and do some math...

lets say you drive 12k miles a year (1000 mile/month) and Gas cost $3.80/gallon ...

A Prius at 50 MPG it would cost (1000 miles/50mpg)*3.80 $/gal = $76/month

a Corolla at 34 MPG would cost (1000 miles/34 mpg)*3.80 $/gal = $111/month

So net fuel savings on a Prius versus a Corolla is perhaps $35/month or so. Now is that worth paying $150 or more extra cost a month to finance the extra cost or a Prius ?

Then add in the extra costs for interest/registration/maintenance.

My Dw bought hers for about 4k more than a comparable Corolla in 2005 and we got $2k back in the tax credit. At over 170,000 miles so far we figured she has saved around $4500-$5,000 in gas. We are a few grand ahead so far and counting. So if you will drive a lot of miles and can get the delta down to a few grand more than a non hybrid you can save money.

There is also a continual benefit of feeling happy each week (or every other week) that your cost at the pump is much less than what others pay. You get that feeling several times per month for the life of the car which has a value that only ownership lets you experience.

The tank on DW car takes about 7-8 gals to "fill up" from near empty. Costs her only about $28 and gives her over 400 miles of travel. Multiply that feeling by 300-400 times if you plan on keeping the car more than 4-8years.

 

[Telly]

I have heard the following things about the Prius and would be interested in an owner's POV:
.........
4. in an accident, a firefighter's job working on a hybrid takes special additional training

Just addressing #4 - by now, most or all FD's have been through one or more classes on responding to incidents involving hybrid and electric vehicles. Our FD went through it a few years ago.

Our Fire Chief says a bigger concern of theirs is unexpected airbag deployment while extracting people, and things like McPherson struts suddenly exploding when there is an underhood fire.

 

[timwalsh300]

My Dw bought hers for about 4k more than a comparable Corolla in 2005 and we got $2k back in the tax credit. At over 170,000 miles so far we figured she has saved around $4500-$5,000 in gas.

You've saved a lot more than that. You came out ahead of the Corolla a long time ago, especially after getting that tax credit.

170k miles / 30 mpg for a Corolla * $3.50/gal = $19,833 in gas

170k miles / 50 mpg for a Prius * $3.50/gal = $11,900 in gas

[Numbers based on what I get for mileage in my own Prius and Corolla, and a wild guess at the average gas price since 2005. With a very simplistic analysis, I see the break-even point with a Corolla being around 118k miles.]

Tim

 

[Maenad]

DW is keen to get one, but how is it in the winter in snow? IIRC it is pretty low for aerodynamic reasons and it seems like it would be a snow plow in more than a few inches of show. Drive wheels are front, right?

It drives OK in snow, but you definitely use the FWD, traction control and anti-lock brakes. I haven't had any accidents, so I'm able to keep it under control. It can be a snow plow in a heavy snowfall, but I live in the suburbs, so our roads are kept clean enough for me to get to and from work even with some of the heavy snowfalls we've had since I've gotten it.

I just stepped out into the garage and the front bumper is ~7 inches off the ground, so make of that what you will. FWIW, a friend who has a long commute out to the country decided against a Prius for specifically that reason - he has to travel on unplowed roads frequently in the winter, and just can't make it unless it's in a Jeep.

We too did the cost analysis, and figured that it's a wash. The hybrid engine isn't saving us anything. However, ICEs are not sustainable long-term, and supporting the development of alternative technology was worth a little extra to us. If we wait for the perfect solution, the world will burn. Kinda literally.

 

[timwalsh300]

We too did the cost analysis, and figured that it's a wash. The hybrid engine isn't saving us anything...

What numbers did you use to arrive at that conclusion?

Tim

 

[1st Tee]

I bought my Prius new for $21k, and after five years and 80k miles I still get excited about it. I think that's rarely heard from other car owners. I've gotten slightly better than 50 mpg over its lifetime, and done only regular maintenance: conventional oil every 5k miles, new tires at 60k, and new wiper inserts just last month. The brakes look like they'll last forever. Some batteries have failed in hot climates around 100-150k miles, but it mostly seems to occur when the cooling fan gets choked with dog hair. I checked mine recently and it looked pristine (I don't have a dog), so I'm expecting no trouble.

Discussions about "the math" of buying a Prius are a lot like discussions about "the math" of tax policy and federal budgets: inescapably colored by ideology. Personally, I don't see a $10k premium. Like I said, I paid $21k for mine. A new Corolla with an automatic transmission runs $15-16k, but I own a Corolla too and they are clearly not in the same class: the Prius has substantially more leg and cargo room. Regardless, after enough miles the Prius always wins in terms of total cost of ownership. It might take 150k miles, but it still wins. If you don't want to wait that long, and you don't need a mid-size vehicle, then a Corolla or Civic or Fit is a fine choice too.

Tim

Paid ~ $23.5k for new 2006 Prius. ~ 7.5 years and 136k the Hybrid battery
went out (internal short). Hot climate.
Service manager called and discussed options, large discount on replacement battery, etc.
Called Toyota USA. Really love the car, goal is to keep it and drive it until 300k miles then
buy a new Prius. What could they do for me. Very easy to work with.
Want to keep a loyal happy customer. Only paid for labor.

Our car still looks new, no scratches, etc. Brakes have never been replaced and at 75%.

Never did the "Math" thing.
Selling the 6 figure "Garage Queen" and buying the Prius was one of the best
decisions I have ever made.

Still get excited about the car and from time to time will do that trick with the gas pedal when I'm under 40 to see how far I can go ( with the engine off and Hybrid system not being charged ).

 

[LinCella]

I've never seen a Prius or a battery on the side of the road in California.

As to why a person would want this or that, who the hell cares! Coke or Pepsi? People want what they want.

And I'll still like my prius, thank you very much. I don't care what you drive.

 

[easysurfer]

I just went through an exercise for myself debating in my own mind whether to go for a Honda Fit vs a Toyota Prius C.

I think the "moral of the story" of choosing what car to get is a very subjective decision.