ERD, you are an excellent internet argument guy, ...
Ha
I appreciate your candidness, even if the message was, well, what it was. Well, I don't expect you to believe this, but 'argument' was not even on my radar screen at any point in this thread. It's not where I was coming from at all. I am trying to understand the issue, yes I challenge what is put out there to learn, to critique, and to see what info seems to hold water. I don't see where I'm going for a 'win' of that sort. The only 'win' for me is clearer information. Regardless my intent, you clearly perceived it as argumentative. I dunno, I'm tempted to blame that disconnect on the lack of 'tone' in a post. A short story -
I've got an old friend, we often challenge each other on some thought or another, to test one or both of our views and see what holds up. Since we know each other well, this is no-holds-barred, just to save time and cut to the chase. Either of us may say something like
' C'mon, don't be stupid - A does not lead to B, you can't just ignore xyz...', and it's no problem. Yet, we had a recent email exchange, it was some insignificant side subject, and it quickly blew way out of bounds. I guess I misread his tone, joked back, he misread that, kicked it up a notch, and it was suddenly getting way heated. I had to call him and say - woah, this really isn't a big deal to me, and we're getting all excited - let's just drop it and pick it up later face-to-face if we want.
All I can say is, every word I put out there was said in a totally 'flat' tone. No 'gotcha', or snarkiness intended at any point. If I did anything to put an argumentative spin on this, I apologize, but I honestly don't know where it would have started, because it was just totally outside of the way I was thinking. I'm just trying to get some clarity on this issue. And yes, it is frustrating - the studies seem to overlap or conflict or say who knows what?
Maybe this is a mistake (won't be my first or last), but I'll try to touch on a few of your issues:
You don't get mad, you are unfailingly polite,
Thank you
Well, I have nothing to get mad about. I'm looking for info. Only thing that would make me mad is someone trying to send me on a wild goose data chase when I'm trying to be serious. I know people get attached to ideas, and sometimes don't like to be challenged, so I try to be polite about the challenges. Is that being read as what I think Martha called 'Minnesota nice'?
you selectively pull up anecdotes, then studies, then chide others for thinking that anecdotes are data.
I may use anecdotes to illustrate, but not prove a point. Or I might use them to show that another's anecdote is just that. I wasn't 'chiding' SunsetSail and Purron for their anecdotes - I was merely attempting to point out that as related to this subject anecdotes are just anecdotes. We can't derive much of anything 'big picture' from them, other than they had their own personal success, which is great.
You misinterpret or misstate authors such as Taubes statements, but in a way that would be just too hard and too boring to try to counter.
I may well be (unintentionally) guilty of this. It's been a while since I read him, but the recent reports seem to match what I recall. But that could be my faulty memory. Yes, it can be a lot of work to set the record straight if I was wrong, and I sometimes don't feel like putting in the effort on a thread myself, even one I've gotten very involved in. So I can't blame you if you don't choose to pursue the corrections, but I wish you would!
...remember that for most of us it is easier to go cold turkey on some category of pleasure or experience, than to limit it. The first is qualitative. Is this an ear of corn or an egg? OK, egg, I can eat it. Compare to -let's see, I think I have had 1800 calories so far today, I wonder if this flan is 200 calories worth of dessert, or 100?
OK, I can see how that could work.
If a person has found a method, used it for at least several years, and stays lean and happy and comfortable, they have found their own answer. All the rest is a bit abstract.
I'm pretty sure I've been agreeing with that all along.
I dunno, there is just something not right for me between T-Al's pretty regular stream of
super-pro-low-carb-why-isn't-everybody-doing-this-posts and what I see as a lack of backup that it is so much better than anything else. It may be a personal preference, sure. But is it clearly for everybody, over other options? That's were I get lost.
-ERD50