Need Help for a long time friend with spending issues.

[brett]

There is no cheese here.

Run...don't walk. And don't look back.

Your friend has made it impossible for you to meet your goal of helping to resolve this situation.

 

[papaof2]

Sometimes you just can't reach people.

A longtime friend asked my wife to be executor of her will. When my wife asked to see a copy of what she'd be working with, the friend said "I don't have it yet. They cost a lot and we're going on a cruise this summer."

 

[rothlev]

Eventually he will likely sell the house on his own. He will decide he needs whatever equity is left after the tax authorities take their share. At that point he can move into subsidized housing and live on his social security check. He will not wind up in the gutter. The tax authorities will not imprison him. Bankruptcy or insolvency will wipe out most of his debt.

not a good situation, but not dire either.

 

[Al in Ohio]

Maybe but at this point the guy can't pay for a gallon of gas or a carton of milk. The IRS will have to get in line.



My things about opening them is that he's put all things money related in complete denial for at least 3 years. He's talking out of his hat when he thinks he can keep his house.

The IRS is first in line. Thet have the power to take and use repossession of all his assets and throw him in jail.

 

[CindyBlue]

Oh, my gosh, ivinsfan...

I have just found and read through this entire thread. You are so very kind to have gone through all the work you have done for your friend. The "going through and organizing all the papers" and trying to figure out and pay past due bills and taxes part really resonated - sadly - with me. Been there, done that with my dad. It was so hard...

But that was such a different situation than yours - my dad turned out to have Alzheimer's (what a horrible disease) and I managed to get his POA to help him. The work we did...still don't know how we managed to do it all.

In your case, you have the desire and compassion and the ability to help, but no power to make those decisions for your friend, and no cooperation from him. Seems to me that it's up to his family and the government to step up now. You can let the appropriate entities know about the situation, and what you've done to help, and let them (hopefully) take over.

I think you are amazing - you have gone well above and beyond with all the things you've done to help him. But you can only do so much, and even thought it hurts you to the bone, it's up to him to either accept your help and do what you others are suggesting, or not. He doesn't appear to be accepting your help. For your own sanity and well being, it might be time to stop taking on so much deep responsibility for him. To me, it doesn't mean you can't keep on loving him, and maybe buying him the occasional groceries, and maybe trying to contact outside entities to get him help. But truly, you can only do so much...and you have already done so much... you just can't do it all.

I sure wish there was a magic spell to make people who are so self destructive see more clearly and help themselves...sigh...

 

[ivinsfan]

Eventually he will likely sell the house on his own. He will decide he needs whatever equity is left after the tax authorities take their share. At that point he can move into subsidized housing and live on his social security check. He will not wind up in the gutter. The tax authorities will not imprison him. Bankruptcy or insolvency will wipe out most of his debt.

not a good situation, but not dire either.

He's a drug addicted, depressed, angry person in complete denial..


He could very well end up "in the gutter" before any progress happens.



It might not be a "dire" situation for a functioning adult but he is not a functioning adult.

 

[cathy63]

The IRS is first in line. Thet have the power to take and use repossession of all his assets and throw him in jail.

It is extremely rare for the IRS to prosecute the failure to file or pay taxes as a criminal case. Their goal is to bring in revenue, and criminal prosecutions are expensive and mostly ineffective at getting back taxes paid. Unless there's actual fraud (falsifying documents) or active tax evasion (offshore accounts, money laundering), he's not going to jail.

Also, ivinsfan says in the first post of this thread that his only income is $800/mo in SS. That number is so low that he doesn't even have a federal filing requirement and probably has not had one for several years. It sounds like the federal tax problem is limited to the 2015 tax year when he pulled funds from his IRA and didn't pay the tax on that income. If he gets that one year straightened out with the IRS, he's probably fine with them.

The state probably also doesn't tax incomes that low, so his main issue other than the 2015 Fed/State tax is the ongoing property tax. Some states have different property tax rates for seniors and the indigent, so he might not even owe the full amount, though he probably will have to sell the house to pay whatever he does owe.

If he needs a federal tax return in order to apply for other benefits, he can go ahead and file a return for 2020 now. He won't owe anything for last year based on his income, so it's just a $0 return and very easy to do. He doesn't have to file missed past returns in order to file a current one.

 

[ivinsfan]

The tax thing is complicated by the fact he get a K 1 from some shares in a soybean processing plant. He only gets a 2 grand in cash but he has the pass through K 1 amount.



Also he has taken some withdrawals as he drained down his retirement accounts.


Enough so that he needs file a 1040. It looks like he took about 20K in 2020. I saw all his retirement account statement and everything is now gone.



The problem is getting everything together.



He wanted to file a 20 so he could get on government assistance. But hasn't gotten any paperwork together.



And I'm not touching another piece of his paperwork.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Diabetes is a risk factor for dementia, so he may be physically incapable of the thought process required to handle his own finances these days. We've seen one one of our parents and now several friends and neighbors go through the slow cognitive decline. They all had relatives to step in and take over at some point. Does the friend have any family members who could be contacted?


AARP has free tax help for low income seniors, though your friend's case may be too complex for that kind of help at this point.

 

[ivinsfan]

Diabetes is a risk factor for dementia, so he may be physically incapable of the thought process required to handle his own finances these days. We've seen one one of our parents and now several friends and neighbors go through the slow cognitive decline. They all had relatives to step in and take over at some point. Does the friend have any family members who could be contacted?


AARP has free tax help for low income seniors, though your friend's case may be too complex for that kind of help at this point.

No family ...two sisters who wouldn't help God if God asked for help.

 

[ivinsfan]

Diabetes is a risk factor for dementia, so he may be physically incapable of the thought process required to handle his own finances these days. We've seen one one of our parents and now several friends and neighbors go through the slow cognitive decline. They all had relatives to step in and take over at some point. Does the friend have any family members who could be contacted?


AARP has free tax help for low income seniors, though your friend's case may be too complex for that kind of help at this point.

If there is a worse combination then severe diabetes, Ambien and anti anxiety drug abuse for confused thinking I'd be surprised.

 

[pacergal]

The bottom line is your friend doesn't want help, does not see or feel the need for help at this time, if ever. He is responsible for his actions and inactions.
His addiction, his depression, his illness/diabetes/health will, most likely, eventually cause "something" to happen on its own.
Sad to watch, I think the best thing for all is to walk away, knowing you all tried your best. Feel good about what you have done and let him go.
Stop checking on him, stop answering calls, etc. He needs to find his own way, and definitely has to hit his personal "rock bottom" before he will change. And he might not ever get there

 

[Sojourner]

And I'm not touching another piece of his paperwork.

What do you plan on doing/saying if he reaches out to you directly asking for help again? I can imagine his situation (legal, financial, medical) is going to rapidly worsen, so I'm guessing it's quite likely he'll get in touch with you and desperately plead for help, given your previous friendship and willingness to help in the past.

 

[ivinsfan]

Well Sojourner that's the 64 dollar question isn't it. I'm not going to take his calls for the rest of the month.


Right now his friends are sources of money or people to vent on. That's not helping anybody.

 

[braumeister]

I have a relative who is very much like this person in nearly every respect.
We all finally gave up on him and let him lie in the bed he made for himself.
It was very difficult, but necessary.

 

[ivinsfan]

Yes Brau .. I know myself and today I can't say I won't try to help him "one more time".



But I can say I won't take his call for a month...baby steps.

 

[Jerry1]

I wonder if you are connected enough with his friends to call them and get them all to stop helping all at one time. Basically, an intervention. If everyone stopped engaging with him then maybe he would have to realize it was him. I’m no expert and would probably consult one but something like a joint communication from all of you. You’re sick, you need help, we’re here for you when you accept that you need help. Until you accept professional help, we’re all sorry, but we just can’t enable you any longer. Then shut off all help and only communicate with laser focus on how he’s doing coming to terms with his addiction.

As a practical matter, as has been said, you’ve done all you can and you can walk away knowing you did all you could and more than most. Best to you in however you proceed.

 

[ivinsfan]

I wonder if you are connected enough with his friends to call them and get them all to stop helping all at one time. Basically, an intervention. If everyone stopped engaging with him then maybe he would have to realize it was him. I’m no expert and would probably consult one but something like a joint communication from all of you. You’re sick, you need help, we’re here for you when you accept that you need help. Until you accept professional help, we’re all sorry, but we just can’t enable you any longer. Then shut off all help and only communicate with laser focus on how he’s doing coming to terms with his addiction.

As a practical matter, as has been said, you’ve done all you can and you can walk away knowing you did all you could and more than most. Best to you in however you proceed.

We actually have a friend text chain excluding him which we have used in his past health problems and such. probably 8 of us..


I wanted to text them an update and suggest that none us give him cash and give him a response much like your suggested response,


My DH isn't completely comfortable with that at the moment. Feels it would embarrass friend. I agreed to defer for now.

 

[braumeister]

Yes Brau .. I know myself and today I can't say I won't try to help him "one more time".

We (all his living relatives and friends) basically boiled it down to
"We will give you the following kinds of help (quite generous) but only if ..."

We had to go with this "tough love" approach because nothing else had worked. He simply blew us off and refused to agree to any conditions for receiving help, so we felt we had no choice but to cast him adrift. That was two years ago and so far he is still surviving.

 

[ivinsfan]

We (all his living relatives and friends) basically boiled it down to
"We will give you the following kinds of help (quite generous) but only if ..."

We had to go with this "tough love" approach because nothing else had worked. He simply blew us off and refused to agree to any conditions for receiving help, so we felt we had no choice but to cast him adrift. That was two years ago and so far he is still surviving.

Absolutely and maybe tomorrow you'll get the call that he's ready to work with your terms. It's not over until they are gone.

 

[NW-Bound]

OP's friend is crazy, from the repeated descriptions of his actions and demeanor.

When a person is insane, even if he commits murder, the law does not hold him responsible. They would put him in an asylum or jail. That's what craziness is about.

How is anyone going to help an insane person? Tell him to act responsibly, to be an adult? If he were normal, he would not be crazy, would he?

 

[ivinsfan]

OP's friend is crazy, from the repeated descriptions of his actions and demeanor.

When a person is insane, even if he commits murder, the law does not hold him responsible. That's what craziness is about.

How is anyone going to help an insane person? Tell him to act responsibly, to be an adult? If he were normal, he would not be crazy, would he?

I hear you and it's sinking in...
A long slow self inflicted death spiral from someone you care about , or anyone I guess is hard to accept and even harder to watch.



Acceptance is a hard thing...thanks for reminding me what's really going on here. I know it's not rational to think this is fixable.

 

[NW-Bound]

I hear you and it's sinking in...
A long slow self inflicted death spiral from someone you care about , or anyone I guess is hard to accept and even harder to watch.

Acceptance is a hard thing...thanks for reminding me what's really going on here. I know it's not rational to think this is fixable.

No, I don't blame you for trying. I would have to try before giving up.

But then, once one has gone as far as you did for no results, he has to ask if he is to try again, what different approach or method would be needed to change the outcome.

I was trying to convey the man's lack of sanity to other posters, who blame the man for not taking responsibility, and that he has to change.

But of course! How can an insane man be responsible? Now, how do you get an insane man to stop being insane? Grab him by the shoulder and shout in his face, "Stop being crazy"?

He needs incarceration. He needs clinical help.

 

[ivinsfan]

No, I don't blame you for trying. I would have to try before giving up.

But then, once one has gone as far as you did for no results, he has to ask if he is to try again, what different approach or method would be needed to change the outcome.

I was trying to convey the man's lack of sanity to other posters, who blame the man for not taking responsibility, and that he has to change.

But of course! Now, how do you get an insane man to stop being insane? Grab him by the shoulder and shout in his face, "Stop being crazy"?

He needs incarceration. He needs clinical help.

Some problems aren't pull yourself by your bootstraps type problems...I think some Type A personalities have a hard time accepting that idea.



My friend has an MD that has prescribed him 60 Ambien a month for years ...that's not my friends fault that's on the doctor.

 

[NW-Bound]

Some problems aren't pull yourself by your bootstraps type problems...I think some Type A personalities have a hard time accepting that idea.

My friend has an MD that has prescribed him 60 Ambien a month for years ...that's not my friends fault that's on the doctor.

Apologies to people of the medical profession on this forum, but there are bad doctors just like there are incompetent people in any other profession or trade.

Worse, people can tell if their mechanic is good or not, but how do you know if your doctor is a quack? And heck, some doctors are addicts themselves.

My nephew who's a pharmacist told me he saw so many doctors wrote bad prescriptions, it made him angry. He knows a lot more about prescription drugs than most doctors do.