Need Help for a long time friend with spending issues.

[Markola]

He sounds like a depressed spendaholic, who won’t stop using and turn himself around until he’s “sick and tired of being sick and tired.” Refusing to allow oneself to be a crutch is important self care in a relationship that is no longer a normal 50/50 friendship.

 

[NW-Bound]

I also think your other friend should not let this guy move in with him until he's off the Ambien, people do scary things when they take that drug and you mentioned he doctor shops to get more. That could be a big part of his mental issues.

Remember the story I told about the husband of my wife's sister who was an Ambien addict, and lost his mind? He became like Gollum in "Lord of the Ring", hoarding his "precious" Ambien and caring about nothing else.

You cannot help nor argue with a lunatic. That's what its comes down to. If you cannot fix the root cause, any other effort is a waste of time.

Or how do you reason with a 2-year-old who is throwing a tantrum, and try to explain financial matters, income tax, tax liens to him?

 

[brett]

You cannot help people who do not want to be helped.

 

[ivinsfan]

In the first couple of pages of this thread I mentioned I thought 2 things could happen.


We might be able to get through because he got scared when his CC cards got cutoff. Had no cash and minus zero in checking.


The second thing was he'd get so mad he wouldn't want to talk to us again ever.


I didn't realize a third possibility which was I just might be done forever. Right now that's where I am


This morning I'm getting texts from the third friend who has the house in Iowa and was at the talk. Broke friend called him last night and complained about anything and everything and that included me and my "improper" sorting. Friend in Iowa got home late Saturday night after spending 3 days doing manual labor in broke friends yard.
He didn't even get a 24 hour whining break. Iowa friend is ready to just walk away.



As TT said how ungrateful!!!



At the moment all 3 of us are done and doner.


I'm getting so much clarity from reading your comments.

 

[Gremlin]

When my family member was in drug rehab for their addiction, I asked the counselor how to judge how much to help. Because you want to help those you care about! The wise counselor said “if you have to put in 75% of the effort (with 25% done by the addict) it’s never going to work.” They have to take responsibility for any positive change to occur.

God bless you for trying.

 

[NW-Bound]

When my family member was in drug rehab for their addiction, I asked the counselor how to judge how much to help. Because you want to help those you care about! The wise counselor said “if you have to put in 75% of the effort (with 25% done by the addict) it’s never going to work.” They have to take responsibility for any positive change to occur.

God bless you for trying.

To wean someone of drugs, you need to incarcerate him.

In the case of the husband of my wife's sister, he refused food to the point of near collapsing, and got hauled off to the ICU. In the hospital was where his addiction to Ambien was broken.

The OP's friend unfortunately will not have that option. It's sad to see a trainwreck coming, and not being able to do anything about it.

 

[Letj]

You cannot help people who do not want to be helped.

Or don’t know they need help or cannot be helped.

 

[Walt34]

ivinsfan, the best of luck to you. I do not see any happy ending to this story no matter what you or your friends do for this guy.

 

[RunningBum]

Maybe you at least got your friend started on the process to sell his house? Though it sounds like he already is starting the excuses (landscaping, specialty realtor) to keep from doing it.

 

[ivinsfan]

Yes every sentence starts I agree with you BUT fill in the blank..

 

[Calico]

Eric Berne wrote about the "Yes, But" game back in the sixties.

https://lifestoogood.net/victim-persecutor/

Addicts of all stripes are experts at the "Yes, But" game. They are masters at it.

I know this because both of my parents were alcoholics until they died, and one sibling is an alcoholic. Nothing was ever, ever, their fault or responsibility. EVER. Someone else (usually me) or something else (life, fate, chance, you name it) was labeled as the cause of all bad things that happen(ed) to them.

I walked away decades ago, knowing there are no "winners" in the game.

Given the long history of the choices made by the OP's friend, there was very little chance that this story would end any other way.

I sincerely hope the friend in Iowa has changed their phone number and the locks on the doors, and has walked away from this situation. If not, they are in for a world of hurt and blame if by some miracle the addict friend lands on their doorstep.

 

[rayvt]

I'm trying to decide how much personal involvement I want ...or at what level I just say I did what I could.

Best advice I got many years ago: "Everybody has problems. Don't make their problem your problem."

2nd best advice was how to answer somebody asking for money. "Sorry, but I can't help you."

 

[Walt34]

Best advice I got many years ago: "Everybody has problems. Don't make their problem your problem."

One of the many signs hanging in non-public areas at work was "Lack of planning on your part does not create an emergency on my part". I always liked that one.

 

[frances]

You've got a heart of gold

ivinsfan - IMO you've gone way above and beyond.
I read most of the posts and see that you do care about friend, but I have to truly wonder how much friend cares about you.

Like you, I have the oldest female child problem of wanting to rescue everyone. And I've had "friends" like this too; call me up and "boo hoo - I've got a problem, I don't know what to do, I need help" but when help is suggested, solutions are offered, all is ignored and excuses are made.

When it begins to feel like I'm beating my head on a brick wall I'm done.

Looks to me like you're beginning to feel like that as well. I know this is easier said than done, but at some point you really just have to walk away in order to preserve your own mental health.

Three years of trying to help met by three years of excuses is, for me about 35 months too long.
If I were in your place I would tell friend I'm at the end of what I can do, he's not willing to work toward the solutions I, DH and whomever else have tried to come up with, so I'm sorry but I'm finished and at that point I would just stop answering the phone or the door if he calls or comes around.

 

[mystang52]

OP, maybe I missed it - and maybe it's too late now, anyway - but maybe consider doing 2 final things:
1) Leave him a short, to the point, list. a) "You owe the following amounts to the following entities: MN tax department $XX,000. Cable Company $Y,000. etc.
b) You have to sell your house to pay these debts.
c) Call a bankruptcy attorney."

Finally, #2) Walk away, knowing you did whatever you could to help someone who cannot be helped.

 

[template]

I'll try to be brief, ask questions if you need clarity. And yes it really is for a "friend"
He is 69 YO.

.....

I went through a similar situation 2 years ago with a friend I had known since grade school. No amount of talking with him could convince him to change his ways. His financial situation was like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

He was never married, he lived in the house his parents left him. Unemployed, lacked ambition, and bought high end electronics equipment while living off his mom's social security until she died. He was behind a few years in property taxes and his house was about to be auctioned off.

In the end, he got cancer and died shortly after his diagnosis at age 68. He was $70K debt at the time of his passing.

 

[Skitso999]

Get rid of the truck

1st, get rid of the stupid truck. Pure idiocy. Buy a 10 year old mini-truck. Fully depreciated, and super simple to have fixed in comparison to others. Transportation issue solved.
2nd, get rid of the house and move into a subsidized apartment. Pay off the debts and cut up the cards. Use handwritten checks from now on and keep a checkbook register in the back, just like 1970. Debt issue solved.
3rd, invest the leftovers in something where he can't get his hands on it the next time he wants something stupid. Not too sure what this would be, since I hate annuities, but that is an alternative.

 

[NW-Bound]

^^^^

Step 0 - Stop taking Ambien.

 

[ivinsfan]

^^^^

Step 0 - Stop taking Ambien.

Yes and that's where the wheels come off so it's an endless circle.

 

[NW-Bound]

Addiction is a scary thing.

I have an uncle who died an addict in his late 30s. Another uncle was a gambling addict, went broke, and his wife left him. Good thing one of his kids took him in, and he's now living with them.

 

[Starsky]

I'd bet he owes property taxes or mortgage payments on his home. It's always more complicated than it appears at first.
There's nothing wrong with moral support; but giving money is much more problematic, especially if an addiction is involved. Brotherly love turns to tough love. Loans will not be repaid and enabling can quickly become a problem.
Bless you for trying to help, but it's not your circus.

 

[rodi]

I just read the entire thread... Wow. I have had to walk away from friends who were too needy, but didn't listen to advice about how to resolve their needs. It's hard, and heartbreaking. But at some point you have to, for your own sanity. For me, the friend who was the worst, and who I'd invested the most to get her back on her financial feet, we are 'Christmas card acquaintances" now... The friendship will never be close again.

My sister (older) is the oldest daughter - and her closest friends all fall into the needy category. One, her bff from grade school, is bipolar and on disability. Sis has finally set some boundaries, and acts as a backstop to friend's mother for support. But their friendship goes back almost 60 years... It works with boundaries because she's second in line of help, and because the friend was brilliant till mental illness cancelled her life plans. Other friends range from financial idiots to lesser degrees of mental illness. There is definitely something to the oldest daughter thing.

I'm sorry you had to go through this ivinsfan. But good for you for realizing you couldn't fix it. Keep those boundaries. You can't want your friend's situation resolved more than your friend does... it's on them now.

 

[ivinsfan]

You know what Rodi every experience can have some good in it.


I've realized that sometimes I just try too hard for too long, and that part goes back to my childhood


I've realized from reading here that way more people then we think have things they struggle with every day. A lot of it you can't see on the surface. That thing about being kind because you never know what someone might be dealing with is oh so true.


I've realized my friend might "accidentally" take too many pills or literally end up on the street and I can't stop it. But I do know it won't be my fault.


It's pointless to be mad at my friend, he's his own worst enemy and will suffer most from this entire thing.


And I've also realized on the whole, people are pretty compassionate. The world's a hard place but there are people that wish complete strangers well just because they know that but for the grace of god they could be that struggling person.



Life's a puzzle but if pieces are missing sometimes we just can't help other people solve their puzzle.

 

[trumpeting_angel]

Pay for his insulin. He could become gravely ill or die without it. Eli Lilley will sell insulin directly for $35/month for a patient who can't afford it.


Folks in his position, while they ARE adults, are often paralyzed and can't change their ways because they are gripped by fear. But a friend cannot help. No sense throwing your good money after bad. It won't help.


If you have a strong stomach and can carry his anxiety for a few hours, you might sit down with him and open his IRS mail. I am a psychologist, and did that for a client (after the IRS knocked at the door and it was clear she was in extremely deep trouble). I hooked her up with my excellent and empathic accountants and they held her hand through the negotiations with the IRS. She won't go to jail, but talk about avoidance only resulting in more horrifying stress! Too sad a story to contemplate.


But do buy the insulin. He may be on the path to self-destruction anyway, but with diabetes skipping insulin is the faster path.

 

[ivinsfan]

Pay for his insulin. He could become gravely ill or die without it. Eli Lilley will sell insulin directly for $35/month for a patient who can't afford it.


Folks in his position, while they ARE adults, are often paralyzed and can't change their ways because they are gripped by fear. But a friend cannot help. No sense throwing your good money after bad. It won't help.


If you have a strong stomach and can carry his anxiety for a few hours, you might sit down with him and open his IRS mail. I am a psychologist, and did that for a client (after the IRS knocked at the door and it was clear she was in extremely deep trouble). I hooked her up with my excellent and empathic accountants and they held her hand through the negotiations with the IRS. She won't go to jail, but talk about avoidance only resulting in more horrifying stress! Too sad a story to contemplate.


But do buy the insulin. He may be on the path to self-destruction anyway, but with diabetes skipping insulin is the faster path.

He got money from another friend that took care of his meds. I did open his mail for 10 hours (along with my DH)



The mail was from early 2018 on..it just made things worse to have it all out in the open. I think I've done all I can.