NFL 2023 Season

[F.I.R.E User]

You can’t lose a Super Bowl and be a G.O.A.T

Montana did not have any rules protecting him. Look at what happened to Young. He had to retire early due to helmet hits.

 

[GenXguy]

Interesting that I never see "the team deserves the credit" comments mentioned with Brady, Montana, Bradshaw, Aikman. Old fans bias?

It's never been just about the quarterback. This is a team sport. Don't get too caught up in the media.

 

[NameTaken2]

You can’t lose a Super Bowl and be a G.O.A.T

Montana did not have any rules protecting him. Look at what happened to Young. He had to retire early due to helmet hits.

Mahomes at age 28 is the first player to win 3 Super Bowl MVPs (matching Montana/Brady) and 2 NFL MVP awards.
An article on this topic, citing stats:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...time-greatest-qbs-after-third-super-bowl-win/

Mahomes is only 28 -if he continues his current trajectory, winning a few more Super Bowls and MVP's, even the great Joe Montana would recognize that as a GOAT career IMO.

 

[F.I.R.E User]

Mahomes at age 28 is the first player to win 3 Super Bowl MVPs (matching Montana/Brady) and 2 NFL MVP awards.
An article on this topic, citing stats:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...time-greatest-qbs-after-third-super-bowl-win/

Mahomes is only 28 -if he continues his current trajectory, winning a few more Super Bowls and MVP's, even the great Joe Montana would recognize that as a GOAT career IMO.

Different era. Helmet to helmet hits are not allowed anymore. Montana took a beating.

 

[CardsFan]

Different era. Helmet to helmet hits are not allowed anymore. Montana took a beating.

That's what I thought, but I saw quite a few during the playoffs. I can't remember when or who, but at least 5 times I made the comment. How about Mahomes' helmet crack against the Dolphins? NO penalty.

Granted, the hardware (helmet) is far better than back then, but the software (his head) is still just as fragile.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mah...ate=ive&vld=cid:a667614e,vid:kMBYsKDqo9M,st:0

 

[jollystomper]

It's never been just about the quarterback. This is a team sport. Don't get too caught up in the media.

It is a team sport, but all teams need a leader. And most often, the QB is the leader. If the other players believe in him, and he makes other players good, that can make a difference. I saw this even playing in high school.

Look at the New York Jets. Talent on both offense and defense. But without a good leader for a QB after Rogers got hurt, well... folks think it was a miracle that they won 7 games .

If one needed a game-winning touchdown with time running down, the QB is the difference maker. Though I was not rooting for KC to win, I would go with Mahomes in that situation every time.

The phrase I had heard that sums it up: "The NFL is a soap opera series about Quarterbacks" .

 

[Popeye]

Obviously Mahomes is a great QB and has a great coach with him. That’s a key factor in the careers of all the best over the years. He will need to keep it up for another 10-12 years to contend for GOAT status. Remember that they are all one Joe Theisman leg hit away from early retirement.

 

[MuirWannabe]

Are we really debating do quarterbacks matter? Or the degree they matter?

They are almost everything in today’s NFL. IMO, there is no debate. QB’s make or break a team. Countless examples. I’ll just use CJ Stroud this year. He meant everything to the Texans and their turnaround.

Does the rest of the team matter? Of course. But without a great QB it doesn’t matter how good the rest of everyone is. Even a good QB is nice. But a transcendent QB like Brady & Mahomes is everything. You can build around that and make it work. A good QB like Dak will get you to the playoffs, but that ain’t everything obviously.

 

[GenXguy]

Are we really debating do quarterbacks matter? Or the degree they matter?

They are almost everything in today’s NFL. IMO, there is no debate. QB’s make or break a team.

LOL

Peyton Manning had a 56.6 QB rating in his Super Bowl win with the Broncos. He was also dead last in the league for the season.

In 2006, Rex Grossman had a QB rating of 10.2 in a win for the NFC Champion Chicago Bears. That's when Denny Green said, "The Bears are who we thought they were."

Many more examples. The quarterback is just one player and is only on the field for 1 of the 3 phases of the game. They get too much credit when a team wins and too much blame when they lose.

 

[jollystomper]

LOL

Peyton Manning had a 56.6 QB rating in his Super Bowl win with the Broncos. He was also dead last in the league for the season.

In 2006, Rex Grossman had a QB rating of 10.2 in a win for the NFC Champion Chicago Bears. That's when Denny Green said, "The Bears are who we thought they were."

Many more examples. The quarterback is just one player and is only on the field for 1 of the 3 phases of the game. They get too much credit when a team wins and too much blame when they lose.

The plural of 1 or 2 anecdotes is not statistical proof .

Your Peyton Manning example (quite a small sample size BTW ) leaves out one thing: Peyton called the offensive plays. So it just not his athletic skill, but also his mental skill in terms of determining what the best play for a situation, regardless of the resulting statistics mean, would be.

You can always fine an exception like Rex Grossman. But that is not the rule. For every similar example you could come up with, I could find 10 that go the other way. If it were not so, QBs would not be, for the most part, the most sought out position in the draft.

A series that gives a great perspective on the role is "Quarterback" on Netflix, which features Mahomes, Kirk Cousins, and Marcus Mariotta. It follows them through the 2022 season, and gives one insight into what a quarterback has to deal with, in both learning and directing a team both inside and outside of the game.

 

[GenXguy]

The plural of 1 or 2 anecdotes is not statistical proof .

Those were just examples against the previous poster's examples, that you can have a championship team and win games even with poor quarterback performance rather than the quarterback being the one who makes or breaks the team. It's a team sport.

 

[jollystomper]

Those were just examples against the previous poster's examples, that you can have a championship team and win games even with poor quarterback performance. It's a team sport.

Yes, it is possible. And a broken watch is correct twice a day. That does not mean I do not try to fix the watch, or get a better watch . On any given Sunday applies. But the vast majority of championship performances required consistently good quarterback play and/or game management.

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

You can’t lose a Super Bowl and be a G.O.A.T

I'm confused by this. So Brady, Purdy, Rodgers, Marino, Peyton Manning, Staubach, Elway, Favre, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Warner, and Kelly are all out of the running because they have lost a Super Bowl?


But Drew Brees (an excellent QB) is in the running because he is 1-0 in Super Bowl appearances? Eli Manning is looking good at 1-0? Bradshaw is a lock at 4-0, and Aikman and Young are in the running at 3-0? (Let's not even contemplate all of the 1-0 QBs.)

 

[easysurfer]

I'm confused by this. So Brady, Purdy, Rodgers, Marino, Peyton Manning, Staubach, Elway, Favre, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Warner, and Kelly are all out of the running because they have lost a Super Bowl?


But Drew Brees (an excellent QB) is in the running because he is 1-0 in Super Bowl appearances? Eli Manning is looking good at 1-0? Bradshaw is a lock at 4-0, and Aikman and Young are in the running at 3-0? (Let's not even contemplate all of the 1-0 QBs.)

Actually, Eli is 2-0.

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

Actually, Eli is 2-0.

Indeed, that was a typo, not a think-o. Do you feel that this changes the assessment of FIRE User's comment?

 

[easysurfer]

Indeed, that was a typo, not a think-o. Do you feel that this changes the assessment of FIRE User's comment?

Don't know about changes or not. When I read your comment, had me questioning my own memory about Eli and I had to verify.

I think being undefeated in Super Bowls can't be only measure of GOAT though as I is difficult enough just to get in as a team.

 

[Dtail]

It is a team sport, but all teams need a leader. And most often, the QB is the leader. If the other players believe in him, and he makes other players good, that can make a difference. I saw this even playing in high school.

Look at the New York Jets. Talent on both offense and defense. But without a good leader for a QB after Rogers got hurt, well... folks think it was a miracle that they won 7 games .

If one needed a game-winning touchdown with time running down, the QB is the difference maker. Though I was not rooting for KC to win, I would go with Mahomes in that situation every time.

The phrase I had heard that sums it up: "The NFL is a soap opera series about Quarterbacks" .

Spot on with the Jets and it has been that way for awhile with them.

 

[Lewis Clark]

You can’t lose a Super Bowl and be a G.O.A.T

This makes zero sense.

Which is better:
A) Win all four Super Bowls you play in
B) Win four Super Bowls and lose four Super Bowls

To me, option B is much better. I may have lost four Super Bowls, but at least I made it to the game.

Your comment implies it is better not to reach a Super Bowl at all than to lose one.

 

[Midpack]

That's what I thought, but I saw quite a few during the playoffs. I can't remember when or who, but at least 5 times I made the comment. How about Mahomes' helmet crack against the Dolphins? NO penalty.

Granted, the hardware (helmet) is far better than back then, but the software (his head) is still just as fragile.

Refs can't see every infraction, but it's very clear they call helmet to helmet penalties FAR more than ever. I doubt any ref would knowingly allow it anymore. I think we have all seen some helmet to helmet calls that were borderline and questionable calls.

I feel sorry for the refs who have to make calls in real time - while the rest of us can sit on our couch with replays from all angles, slo mo and commentators who are more than willing to fault refs. At least refs do have access to video after the fact to make some, but not all calls.

I'm glad they've taken steps to reduce CTE, helmet to helmet penalties, concussion protocols, etc.

 

[GenXguy]

Yes, it is possible. And a broken watch is correct twice a day. That does not mean I do not try to fix the watch, or get a better watch . On any given Sunday applies. But the vast majority of championship performances required consistently good quarterback play and/or game management.

You're missing the point. I'm not talking about "possibilities". I'm talking about facts and history with a deeper understanding of the game. The quarterback is just one player. He's not even on the field a lot of the time because he doesn't play defense. I gave examples and could give a lot more where medocre or poor quarterback performance didn't matter for winning teams.

 

[pb4uski]

You can’t lose a Super Bowl and be a G.O.A.T
...

There are NO quaterbacks that had more than one Super Bowl appearance and never lost... that list incudes Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Patrick Mahommes and Bart Starr... so to say that you can't lose a Super Bowl and be a GOAT is rubbish.

There are 3 quarterbacks that won their one and only Super Bowl appearance... Joe Theisman, Jim Plunkett and Ken Stabler... and none of them are GOATs.

 

[Popeye]

Some of you seem to be talking about being a GOAT like there can be more than one. To me there isn’t A goat there is only THE goat. After all goat stands for greatest of all time. In the end, there can be only one! (Highlander reference.)

Now who that one is will be debated for years to come.

 

[MuirWannabe]

You're missing the point. I'm not talking about "possibilities". I'm talking about facts and history with a deeper understanding of the game. The quarterback is just one player. He's not even on the field a lot of the time because he doesn't play defense. I gave examples and could give a lot more where medocre or poor quarterback performance didn't matter for winning teams.

The quarterback doesn’t play defense? Oh, ok. I see your point now. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[GenXguy]

The quarterback doesn’t play defense? Oh, ok. I see your point now. Thanks for the clarification.

And usually not special teams, either.

The big point is that the quarterback is just one important factor and doesn't necessarily make or break a team. Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl. It's not because he wasn't good enough.

 

[Midpack]

Some of you seem to be talking about being a GOAT like there can be more than one. To me there isn’t A goat there is only THE goat. After all goat stands for greatest of all time. In the end, there can be only one! (Highlander reference.)

Now who that one is will be debated for years to come.

There’s only one GOAT, and it’s Brady. No one here is questioning that for now unless I missed it.

Doesn’t mean that can never change, Mahomes has the potential to become the GOAT, but we won’t know that for at least 4 more years. Until then, this is all speculation.

And then we may be stuck with the same dilemma as golf, is the GOAT Tiger or Jack? A defensible argument can be made for either - but let’s not hijack this thread.