*Not* taking statins

[motley]

Thanks to all for replying! I fully understand that it sounds a little ridiculous to try and talk a technical paper with your doctor, but I am also pretty sure that most people who have ER'ed are smart enough to get the main points.


One of those points is how much wiggle room all of the pro-statin papers have. There is no evidence that, outside the parameters in my OP, they help people avoid bad outcomes that they might not have had anyway.


They may not hurt you, and if so, probably you should take them if your doctor tells you to. But read "Bad Pharma" anyway.

I don't need a book to tell me our medical profession is whacked, having experienced more than my share. I'll concede for the sake of the argument the book is good. But I'm still taking my statin.

 

[bolt]

My doctor wanted me to take them. She went on and on and on. Then she got the bright idea to show me my statistics show I would die early. She input all my data and was surprised I had NO increased chance of death. Shut her up regarding statins.

+1

Near my exact same experience with a male internist.
Have you noted the numerous big Pharma settlements of Billions with many USA states over similar type pharma's supported excesses by frontline Dr's?
Its not necessarily Drs, it's that they too become sold on Pharma's marketing and no doubt incentives also.

Yes, I've shelved statins a decade or so back. My blood tests have been fine. This was over 5 yrs back https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...f-lawsuits-over-lipitor-idUSKBN0G80E520140808


Good luck & Best wishes....

 

[motley]

@Motley
>>>I too will take clear, hard evidence and the advice of a doctor with the expertise vs "the internet."


Really unfair to say "the internet" without acknowledging that literally *all* scientific information is there... that is what I specifically referred to. Not to mention that many of the doubters are MDs and specialists themselves.



Anyone who feels like they cannot sort through it should stay away from it.


Thanks again to all who replied to my story...

As the book you suggest points out, scientific data can be deftly manipulated, and being an MD is not assurance of integrity and/or competence. (Mercola anyone?)

I agree that anyone who feels like they cannot sort through it should stay away from it. But feeling like one can doesn't mean one will.

 

[Freedom56]

I have (familial) high cholesterol. After reading extensively online (research papers etc) as well as "The Great Cholesterol Myth" and "Bad Pharma", I decided to stop taking Crestor. I had been on it a couple of years, at a pretty low dose, and (full disclosure) it *did* make my numbers much better. Originally, I did experience some muscle weakness, but it was endurable.


Still, since I had *none* of the indicated reasons for taking it other than the numbers (i.e. no previous heart disease, no familial heart disease, good weight, exercise, never smoked), I decided to "bleep it" and told my doctor (after giving him the TGCM book, which he read) that I wasn't going to take it anymore.


I am not interested in rehashing the details of pro vs con statins.


I was wondering if anyone else has made a similar decision.


Thanks,


Bood

There are other options to statins for lowering cholesterol. I know of one case of someone I know well that did not tolerate even low doses of Lipitor. He felt fatigue and muscle pain during the first week. They performed some blood tests on him and found that Lipitor was causing issues with his liver. They put him on another statin Baycol (which was taken off the market after 50 people died) and had the same issues. He was then put on a non systemic bile acid sequestrant (Colesevelam - brand name Welchol) and lowered his cholesterol without any symptoms. You may want to talk to you doctor about other options to statins.

 

[Happyras]

There are other options to statins for lowering cholesterol. I know of one case of someone I know well that did not tolerate even low doses of Lipitor. He felt fatigue and muscle pain during the first week. They performed some blood tests on him and found that Lipitor was causing issues with his liver. They put him on another statin Baycol (which was taken off the market after 50 people died) and had the same issues. He was then put on a non systemic bile acid sequestrant (Colesevelam - brand name Welchol) and lowered his cholesterol without any symptoms. You may want to talk to you doctor about other options to statins.

I could not and would not take statins. Tried several. Then I tried Zetia. It worked, but then the FDA said it did not so I was told to stop. Then they did a proper study (without statin combo) and "they found it worked", surprise. So I went back on Ezetimibe (generic). It has lowered my total Cholesterol by 50 to 80 points. Yeah, it works with no side effects. Thanks for pointing out the Calcium scan, I have no clue where I stand and my doc is retiring......

 

[HawkOwl]

Tactfully put.

I had high cholesterol (despite a good diet and exercise) and was put on a statin. The numbers dipped considerably. I too will take clear, hard evidence and the advice of a doctor with the expertise vs "the internet."

To each their own

Agreed. I have never understood the attraction of “secret knowledge that THEY don’t want you to know”. Hold the laetrile, I’ll keep taking my atorvastatin.

 

[Time2]

This has got me wondering, I'm on Rosuvastatin now, but have been on Lovastatin and prevastatin over the years.
I had bad leg cramps, but dismissed it as part of the back problems I have had for 10 years. I just lived with it. After some time I think the spasms from my back were less and less and I began to think the one's I was having may be from the statin. I still ignored it and just lived with it. I changed pharmacies and out of the blue my old pharmacist called and ask if I had about any problems I mentioned the spasms, she suggested CoQ10. I started taking it and it reduced the spasms 90%, it even stopped the cramping I had in my thumbs.
OK, so why am I on Statins, my dad had a heart attack at 43 years old, had two more heart attacks after that and finally a quadruple bypass. When they did the bypass they got veins from his leg(s). He had poor circulation in his legs, while looking for a good vein they ended up cutting both legs from groin to ankle to find usable veins. It was kind of assumed I should keep my cholesterol low. Now I'm wondering if I should get a calcium score just to see where I'm at, maybe my dads problems were all environmental. I'm 65 yrs old and doing well. I walk 4 to 8 miles five days a week. Today's 4 miles was just under 17 minutes a mile. An 8 mile walk doesn't affect the rest of my day. I do note I often have some minor leg pain the first 1-1/2 miles, but once my circulation catches up, that's gone.
I wonder if the calcium test showed zero or low, if I could or should stop Rosuvastatin?

 

[RobbieB]

No problems with the simvastatin I've been eating for the last 20 years.

 

[donheff]

It's my belief that this recent podcast has some of the best, current information on the topic: https://peterattiamd.com/tomdayspring6/

It's Peter Attia (clinician) and Thomas Dayspring (very long-time lipidologist and not a statin "fan-boy").
.

Thanks for the reference. I have long had a Peter Attia blog in my RSS feed but it didn't have this primary site included.

Back to the OP, I too dropped statins after many years when I read some of the stuff you referenced. More recently I went back on a low dose atorvastatin after a high cardiac calcium score. My triglycerides are low and HDL high but I suspect that I am prone to inflammation. Statins never gave me problems that I noticed so I figured why not try them for the anti-inflammatory effect. I have never had a detailed lipid panel that includes APOb. Naturally, I would learn that it could be useful after I went back on the statins and won't get a clean baseline from the test.

 

[athena53]

No problems with the simvastatin I've been eating for the last 20 years.

My Dad was on statins for decades with no problems at all- no sure if he is now since he entered LTC a few months ago at age 89. Prevastatin, which I took, is supposed to be the least likely to cause issues (per Peter Attia's podcast) and yet for me, it did.

We're all different!

 

[John Galt III]

My bad cholesterol numbers have been fairly high for decades, and I have been urged to go on a statin, but refused. My good cholesterol is always at or above the 'good' mark, and that was one reason I avoided statins. ANyway, I have been able, recently, to get my bad chol number down by losing weight and eating oatmeal every day. And fish oil gets my lipids number down. Losing weight also got my blood sugar down to 99, from 119. My most recent blood work showed bad chol at just a few points over the line, whatever that is.

 

[Born2Fish]

I took various statins for about 12 years (~ age 40-52).

I stopped taking them (against Drs orders) after I began experiencing short term memory loss. The memory loss went away after a few weeks and has not returned.

I also ruptured a calf muscle prior to the memory issue but didn't stop at that time.

I changed my diet to a "mediterranean" variety, and upped my running/walking routines for a more strenuous workout.

All of my lab results are in great shape now, without statins. My doctor agreed that I did not need to continue on a statins regime.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

My Doc uses the Framington Risk Score scale to decide on Statins.

https://www.thecalculator.co/health...alculator-for-Coronary-Heart-Disease-745.html

I have taken them for ages with no adverse effects. DW has higher Cholesterol than I do and does not take them. We have the same GP. She has not other issues. Wheras I have a Pacemaker, High BP etc.

 

[tenant13]

I had a mild heart attack in March. "Bad genes" aka doctor has no clue why since I'm the opposite of who would normally qualify for one. So I'm on 40mg Atorvastatin. Not as much for its cholesterol lowering abilities (my numbers were normal) but rather for how it affects blood platelet. Or so the doc says... I observed no side effects so I think I'll stay on it even though I hate taking meds of any kind

 

[Montecfo]

Dr cannot explain this

I had a heart attack while playing basketball 14 years ago. Always an active healthy guy, basketball and running, but a high stress job. Regular checkups. No HBP, no cholesterol meds to that point. Got a stent in the LAD (yes, the widowmaker).

Since then I have stayed active (eased out of hoops for other reasons), taken station religiously, and followed cardiologist orders. Took a nuclear stress test February 2018-flying colors. Late June of same year experienced shortness of breath while doing yard work. They just about decided I was fine but finally sent me to catch lab, and I received a 2nd stent in LAD adjacent to the first. Retired a little less than a year later (not for medical reasons per se.)

I asked more than one of my cardiologists how I can do everything right and still had what they call a "heart event".

They have no answers. I'm on the same meds/etc as before. Well, actually I'm on Crestor now but that was my idea, not the doctors.

 

[Nemo2]

Two years ago I had a, ('supposed' and unverified), TIA.....doc put me on statins, (a 'belt & suspenders' approach)......not keen on taking meds...but...

 

[sengsational]

I asked more than one of my cardiologists how I can do everything right and still had what they call a "heart event".

They have no answers. I'm on the same meds/etc as before. Well, actually I'm on Crestor now but that was my idea, not the doctors.

A few reasons, but I the idea that lowering LDL-C is all there is to it is a big problem, because it's directionally correct, but way more complicated. apoB is better, but also not the whole story. As mentioned above, the biggest reason is "we're all different". If you are lucky enough (actually unlucky enough) to match the more sick people they select for the drug studies, you can see basically where you might end-up, but extending those results to the rest of us isn't necessarily sound logic.

Two years ago I had a, ('supposed' and unverified), TIA.....doc put me on statins, (a 'belt & suspenders' approach)......not keen on taking meds...but...

Whoa! Have you come off that for a few months to see how you feel? I'd have that discussion with my doctor if you haven't already. I had no idea that statins were indicated for a 'maybe' TIA. Have you had a calcuim score and/or CIMT that shows high risk? If the idea was to leverage the inflammation reduction capacity of a statin, maybe there's another, safer way to get there.

 

[Nemo2]

Whoa! Have you come off that for a few months to see how you feel? I'd have that discussion with my doctor if you haven't already. I had no idea that statins were indicated for a 'maybe' TIA. Have you had a calcuim score and/or CIMT that shows high risk? If the idea was to leverage the inflammation reduction capacity of a statin, maybe there's another, safer way to get there.

Don't know if I feel any different now, (when you factor in/out the effects of aging during the interim period), than I did before I began taking them.

With the current 'plague' it's less easy to get a "Let's sit down and review stuff" Dr.'s visit, but I have the idea in mind for a later date.

Thanks.

 

[OldShooter]

I believe most of us here aren't formally trained Financial Planners either, but there's a general consensus "Nobody cares about your money like you do, so figure out as much for yourself as you can." Wouldn't it be the same about your health? ...

No. For easy to understand reasons.

First, compared to medicine, investing is simple and almost completely static. All one needs to do is to find and read enough of a century's worth of studies and data that point to passive investing and thought-out AAs as the winning strategy. Pretty much one size fits all. The difficulty comes exclusively from the hucksters in the investment business using smoke, mirrors, and outright lies to obscure this simple fact and line their pockets. In some cases (12b1 fees for example) they are aided and abetted by the SEC. I am currently reading a somewhat old book: "Unconventional Success" by David Swensen, acclaimed manager of the Yale endowment. Swensen peels the onion on fund fees and frauds even more deeply than Malkiel, Ellis, et al. It's worth a read even though some of his numbers are out of date.

Medicine, OTOH, is a moving target on the science side and is often quite patient-specific. A good doctor, backed by a good clinic, will be continuously monitoring (and sometimes contributing) to the science while using his clinical experience with hundreds of patients to develop treatment plans. He will also frequently consult with colleagues and take advantage of continuing education opportunities. Sorry, a bunch of anecdotes and internet links just cannot compete. ( Incidentally, one of my criteria for a doctor I trust is that I hear "I don't know" once in a while. It is the "Doctor God" personalities that scare me and that I avoid.)

Not picking on anyone or any specific post in this thread, but overall I am reminded of a psychological phenomenon called the Dunning–Kruger effect (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect), the gist of which is that the less a person knows about a subject the more that person overestimates their expertise.

Edit: @cooch96, in reading your question more carefully I realize this answer is a bit off the mark. I apologize. I would agree totally that it's a good idea to " figure out as much for yourself as you can." Reading quickly I took that to imply self-treatment as well as education. That's the issue this post addressed -- a bit off the mark. I am sure than any good doctor would want educated patients, BUT stopping at a point before the patient tries to overrule the doc. The advertisement of expensive drugs is a lab rat here. I know doctors who prefer to prescribe a drug specifically requested by a patient rather than to educate them about inexpensive alternatives or even that the drug is not needed.

 

[f35phixer]

i had been taking Pravastatin for long time and also started experiencing Memory Loss. Actually thought I had started a slow move towards getting Dementia / Alzheimer's, Its in the family!! Kept a notebook of all the STUPID stuff i was doing. Dr did a series of brain scans, cognitive tests etc. Brain did show some declining areas, but she thought they were normal for an OLD PERSON ;-) Took me off for 6 months and things got better ! So I went on Ezetimibe (generic), zero of any other side affects, no muscle aches,

 

[sengsational]

Dunning-Kruger effect is interesting. I knew of the phenomenon (we all have heard of the deal where all car drivers rate themselves above average, which of course is impossible). The wikipedia article describes the phenomenon as "being on mount stupid", hahaha! That's why I like humility in a doctor, because I think they might be as susceptible to the effect as anyone. The doctors I've found most helpful were always learning and when I mentioned papers I read and asked them about, they'd ask me to send them the link if they hadn't read it, and continue to send them related interesting stuff on the topic.

 

[Ginny]

20 years ago I entered a statin study for folks with high cholesterol and the first month I had such bad reactions that I took myself off of it. I had muscle pains and was on an emotional roller coaster that, so I knew I did not get the placebo. My doctor at the time was not happy and had me get a scan of my neck veins to determine if there was plaque. (You know what I mean) I got a clean bill of health so the doctor was satisfied. So no statins for me.

 

[tenant13]

I asked more than one of my cardiologists how I can do everything right and still had what they call a "heart event".

They have no answers. I'm on the same meds/etc as before. Well, actually I'm on Crestor now but that was my idea, not the doctors.

That's the part that tells me we'd better use our time wisely because while planning for a long and stress free retirement is prudent, it might be also unrelated to what's actually in cards for us - and there's nothing we can do about it.

 

[Happyras]

i had been taking Pravastatin for long time and also started experiencing Memory Loss. Actually thought I had started a slow move towards getting Dementia / Alzheimer's, Its in the family!! Kept a notebook of all the STUPID stuff i was doing. Dr did a series of brain scans, cognitive tests etc. Brain did show some declining areas, but she thought they were normal for an OLD PERSON ;-) Took me off for 6 months and things got better ! So I went on Ezetimibe (generic), zero of any other side affects, no muscle aches,

It is odd that only you and I have mentioned Zetia in lieu of a statin. I really think more should be considering this drug. Most doctors got turned off when it was prescribed with a statin, and showed no added benefit.

Anyone else tried this?

 

[sengsational]

The podcast I referenced earlier also mentioned a non-statin cholesterol reducing agent...I think they were calling it "pantothenic acid". They were saying it blocks cholesterol synthesis at an earlier stage than statins do. I'm not a member, or I'd look at the complete show notes (the notes are truncated unless you're a member). They didn't talk about what pantothenic acid was, but looks like a vitamin kind of thing (non money making thing). I did a quick search and found a few references related to cholesterol, though.