Replacement Hot Water Heater

[Ready]

I purchased a probe that measures total dissolved solids in water from Amazon. I just ran some tests to see if I have "hard" water. My total dissolved solids ppm for my tap water is about 600. I'm told that tap water can have up to 300 ppm and still be considered acceptable, so I guess I have somewhat dirty water.

I have an Everpure 300 water filter in the kitchen for drinking water. The water coming out of that filter was 640. So even more solids than the tap water. The filter is about a year old, so I guess it's time to replace it. I'm wondering if even a new one is going to be much less than 600 though. I guess I will have to spend $100 on a replacement filter to find out.

Interesting experiment for a $16.00 probe. I guess I'll have to look into water softeners again.

 

[jzajzz]

We have two tankless water heaters in our home...one for each end of a pretty big home. When I had the home built, I more or less specified the water heaters I wanted...capable of high output so that multiple showers could be going at once. The problem is that with today's low flow plumbing fixtures, the hot water has to be all the way on for them to kick on. If you have a single lever fixture, then the moment you start turning the heat down, the water heater detects an overheated situation, and kicks off. So, what I've had to do is turn the temp down to about as low as I can get it on the water heater control panel, do I don't have to back off the heat much on the single lever fixtures.

We bought a home in NV a couple months ago, with a 50 gallon tank and a recirc pump. We love it. Never run out of hot water, and when we turn on the faucet, the water is hot in seconds instead of minutes. As we age, I think we'll be fine with a slightly higher gas bill in exchange for plenty of hot water, pronto.

The disadvantages of a tankless heater is running water at the same time. so for your specific situation a tank type is best... you could also get a recirc with a tankless heater to kick off the heat faster..

The best water heater is actually an indirect water heater off a boiler... but I'm assuming NV doesn't have too many boilers.

 

[samclem]

I purchased a probe that measures total dissolved solids in water from Amazon. I just ran some tests to see if I have "hard" water. My total dissolved solids ppm for my tap water is about 600. I'm told that tap water can have up to 300 ppm and still be considered acceptable, so I guess I have somewhat dirty water.

You should have your water tested for hardness, you can't tell much about it by using a TDS test. For example, sodium will affect the TDS reading, but does not contribute to hardness. Harness is generally caused by calcium and magnesium ions in the water, and you'll need to know how hard the water is (typically measured in grains/gal) before shopping for a water softener anyway.
If your water tastes okay, you don't have a lot of mineral buildup in the shower, and you can get suds when you add soap to it, then I would not bother with a water softener. Having moderately hard water is not a bad thing, the minerals are generally considered beneficial to health. No filter can make water "soft", you'd need a water softener to do that. These work by attracting the Mg and Ca ions to a resin media (a bunch of plastic beads), and the media holds them there until they are rinsed away in a backflush of salt water. The sodium from the salt takes their place on the beads, and gets re-introduced to your household water when Mg and Ca later attach themselves to the beads. So, the water that comes from a water softener has a lot of sodium in it, and that's not good for your health (and it is tough on appliances, too). You can do some things to reduce the sodium in your drinking water: You can use potassium chloride instead of "regular" sodium chloride in the rinse, but this is more expensive. Or you can use a reverse osmosis system to remove the sodium, but that's more complexity and expense.

I have very hard water in our home (46 grains/gal) and I installed a water softener, and I installed a reverse osmosis setup to remove a lot of the resultant sodium from our drinking water. The softener adds enough sodium so that the total reading is about 1500 PPM. So, I needed the reverse osmosis system. It's a lot of complexity, but it's what I needed to do. If my water had been only moderately hard (say, 7 grains per gallon or less), I would definitely have left it alone.

 

[ERD50]

I purchased a probe that measures total dissolved solids in water from Amazon. I just ran some tests to see if I have "hard" water. My total dissolved solids ppm for my tap water is about 600. I'm told that tap water can have up to 300 ppm and still be considered acceptable, so I guess I have somewhat dirty water.

Who told you that?

from wiki, and other sources:

Classification; hardness in ppm
Soft less than 60
Moderately 60-120
Hard 120-180
Very hard ≥ 181

Ours from the well is ~ 700, and it is nasty hard, we absolutely need a water softener.

I have an Everpure 300 water filter in the kitchen for drinking water. The water coming out of that filter was 640. So even more solids than the tap water. The filter is about a year old, so I guess it's time to replace it. I'm wondering if even a new one is going to be much less than 600 though. I guess I will have to spend $100 on a replacement filter to find out.

I don't think filters will remove much in the way of minerals, they tend to filter out VOCs. You need an RO to remove dissolved solids.

Interesting experiment for a $16.00 probe. I guess I'll have to look into water softeners again.

Yes, I bought one to check my RO unit from time to time. But note that you will get a similar reading before/after a water softener. A water softener performs an ion exchange - instead of calcium/mag ions, you will have sodium-chloride ions, which measure pretty much the same.

But sodium chloride just washes away, it does not build up.

ooops, cross-posted with samclem - what he said!

-ERD50

 

[Ticker]

15 years ago I installed a Marathon water heater. the fiberglass tank has a lifetime warranty, and it carries an incredible efficiency rating for an electric. It's expensive, but my 50+ gallons unit has served us well. the replacement parts are readily available-I purchased the tank from Home Depot, had to argue with them as they didn't know that they had it available for order. the consumables consist of elements, pop off valves, back flow valves and the thermostat. so far I have had to replace the back flow valve, and the elements look to be about $50 each. The tank is covered in 3-4" foam insulation, followed by a plastic exterior. although it's only 2 of us, we have never had an issue with running out of hot water when we have a house full of guests. also, at one time the unit was eligible for rebates from some of the power companies, and some utilities were even financing the installation of the unit. You might want to check with your utility company to see if they have any programs similar to this.

 

[ERD50]

15 years ago I installed a Marathon water heater. the fiberglass tank has a lifetime warranty, and it carries an incredible efficiency rating for an electric.

The fiberglass tank sounds good for long life, but I'm certain that all electric water heaters are of a very similar efficiency. Electric elements surrounded in water all operate essentially the same. The amount of insulation would be the only difference. Here, at home depot:

Rheem Marathon 50 Gal. Lifetime Warranty Electric Water Heater with Durable Design-MR50245 - The Home Depot

Rheem Performance 50 Gal. 6-Year Warranty Electric Water Heater-XE50M06ST45U1 - The Home Depot

You Marathon 50 G costs $1096, and annual cost to operate is $555.

The very cheapest 50 G electric they have costs $398, and operating cost is .... the exact same $555.


-ERD50

 

[Lakewood90712]

To the O.P. You are in Earthquake country . That tank full of drinkable water is priceless if we have the so called monster earthquake. A neighbor is a plumbing contractor and his house has a conventional tank water heater for just that reason.

 

[Lakewood90712]

Looked at my 50 gal water heater saw date of 1992 so 25 years old.
Still had the 6yr warranty sticker on it. So when it goes will try to find
another one locally. Brand is US Craftmaster.

I think they are long gone. I have one too , a 40 gallon model installed in 1989. Every 5 years I replace the T and P safety valve and blow the accumulated crud out of the bottom of the tank drain valve. No repairs, even has the original thermocouple.

Now that I have talked about it, the thing is likely jinxed and will develop a leak tomorrow.

 

[samclem]

FYI ... the way to make your water heater last a lot longer than the warranty period is to replace the anode rod every couple of years

That will work, but the anode rods do have a tendency to get corroded into place, and it can get hard to remove them without damaging the tank. Plus, it is a PITA. One other option is to purchase a permanent powered anode rod--it doesn't sacrifice itself or get worn down like a conventional anode rod. They aren't cheap ($170 or so), but they have a long warranty and will protect the tank.

The anode rod is the piece that attracts all the minerals and all the residue that will harm the lining of the tank.

The anode rod prevents the tank lining and components from rusting, it's not there to fight mineral buildup in the tank. While some minerals are attracted to the anode rod, others settle to the bottom of the tank and can only be removed by flushing the tank periodically.

 

[Ticker]

"You Marathon 50 G costs $1096, and annual cost to operate is $555.

The very cheapest 50 G electric they have costs $398, and operating cost is .... the exact same $555."

While that may be true, are you figuring in replacement installation costs? My mother has replaced 2 cheap water heaters in the last 15 years, and that has impacted the financial considerations . Of course, I paid a significantly lower price for the unit in 2002, and my utility coop has crazy cheap rates, so I would tend to doubt the $555 yearly costs, especially here in the south where my attic temperature sometimes renders the water heater into an insulated cooler.

 

[homestead]

I think they are long gone. I have one too , a 40 gallon model installed in 1989. Every 5 years I replace the T and P safety valve and blow the accumulated crud out of the bottom of the tank drain valve. No repairs, even has the original thermocouple.

Now that I have talked about it, the thing is likely jinxed and will develop a leak tomorrow.

I haven't replaced anything on mine as yet.
I sent them an email, see if they respond.
U. S. Craftmaster Water Heaters

 

[ERD50]

"You Marathon 50 G costs $1096, and annual cost to operate is $555.

The very cheapest 50 G electric they have costs $398, and operating cost is .... the exact same $555."

While that may be true, are you figuring in replacement installation costs? My mother has replaced 2 cheap water heaters in the last 15 years, and that has impacted the financial considerations . Of course, I paid a significantly lower price for the unit in 2002, and my utility coop has crazy cheap rates, so I would tend to doubt the $555 yearly costs, especially here in the south where my attic temperature sometimes renders the water heater into an insulated cooler.

You missed my point.

I was responding to what you said, with the words I bolded:

15 years ago I installed a Marathon water heater. the fiberglass tank has a lifetime warranty, and it carries an incredible efficiency rating for an electric.

My point was the efficiency of that expensive electric water heater is no different than a cheap electric water heater.

On the overall life and replacements costs, I agree with you. If the fiberglass tank lasts 2x or more, then it could make good sense to pay more than 2x for it, based on installation costs, and the inconvenience of being w/o hot water.

But that has nothing to do with your an incredible efficiency rating for an electric comment, which is not correct.

And what's with 'comic sans' font?

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

FYI ... the way to make your water heater last a lot longer than the warranty period is to replace the anode rod every couple of years ... the difference between the 5/6 yr warranty heater vs the 10/12 yr warranty heaters .. is that the ladder has 2 anode rods as opposed to 1.
... .

While this is the general recommendation, and it makes sense and I would suggest to follow it, I can attest that it isn't always needed.

I moved into this house in 1992, the water heater was 6 years old. We are on a well, the hot water had a rotten egg smell when we moved in, probably due to sitting empty for a few weeks, and a reaction with the anode rod (this is a common problem). So I replaced the anode rod with the less active type (alum versus magnesium, forget which is which). The smell went away, all good.

So ~ 4 years later, I decide to replace the anode rod as recommended. I could not get it to budge. Decided I might break something if I tried harder, so I gave up. We replaced that water heater last year when we had the furnace and AC replaced, it was still working fine - that's a 30 year old water heater (basic, cheap Sears brand - 6 year warranty), about 24 years without an anode rod replacement.

I don't know what accounts for that, just providing a data point.

-ERD50

 

[CRLLS]

We moved into our house 11 yrs ago with a then-18 yr old water heater. I decided to replace it on general principles 1-1/2 yrs ago. Went with a Rheem gas - 12 yr -50 gal tank. Thought I was doing the right thing with a 12 yr warranty. Within 3 weeks we had the rotten egg smell. We are also on well water and softener. I shocked the tank and another 3 weeks we had the smell back. Rheem recommended changing to their R-Tek anode as the fix. 4 weeks later, same thing. We then changed to a powered anode and voila, no more smell, even after 8 months. The tank we took out had NO anode. That's right, just a pipe plug in place of the anode for at least 10 years, probably since its installation.

Too many stories of unsatisfied tankless heater owners prevented me from considering them for more than 30 seconds.

 

[Sunset]

OP - I think you would be better off with a 50 gal tank , the price is close to a 40 gal and since your place is big, future buyers would prefer the 50 gal, plus you are used to 2 * 40 gal tanks right now, so maybe you use more than you think.

 

[travelover]

.........I don't know what accounts for that, just providing a data point.

-ERD50

Same thing happened to me. Had rotten eggs smell with well water, took out anode, replaced heater 20 years later on general principles - it was not leaking yet.

 

[Ready]

You should have your water tested for hardness, you can't tell much about it by using a TDS test. .

Samclem - thanks for the info on this. I installed a brand new Everpure H300 water filter today and retested the water. Both the filtered and unfiltered water still measure 600ppm TDS. What do you make of this? Should the filter be removing any solids?

 

[samclem]

Samclem - thanks for the info on this. I installed a brand new Everpure H300 water filter today and retested the water. Both the filtered and unfiltered water still measure 600ppm TDS. What do you make of this? Should the filter be removing any solids?

No--no filter will remove dissolved solids. A reverse osmosis unit (which some people call a "filter", but it is quite bit more involved than that) can remove some types of dissolved solids (e.g. sodium), but the most commonly available membranes will not work well with calcium and magnesium (those are the most common minerals that cause "hardness" in water, and they typically just clog up a reverse osmosis membrane with scale).

Get the water tested or look at the report from your municipality to find out what the hardness of your water is, then decide if you really need a water softener. Unless it is quite hard and causing you issues, I would choose to leave it alone, because if you soften it, you'll probably also need to use a reverse osmosis unit on your drinking water to remove the sodium (per post 53).

 

[Ready]

OK...I was just trying to test whether the $100 I pay every time I replace the filter is doing anything at all, or whether I'm just wasting my money on these filters. Aside from a subjective taste test, is there any way to measure what these filters are achieving?

 

[samclem]

OK...I was just trying to test whether the $100 I pay every time I replace the filter is doing anything at all, or whether I'm just wasting my money on these filters. Aside from a subjective taste test, is there any way to measure what these filters are achieving?

Yes, you can pay some money to get your water tested "before" and "after" the filter. Since we are on a well and I'm pretty much responsible for assuring our water is safe, I paid about $150 to get our water tested for hundreds of chemicals. There are plenty of labs that you can find online to do it. If I were on municipal water, I would have just asked the water company for a report.

If you are on a municipal water system, the chances are very good that the water is entirely safe. The main reason to filter drinking water at home if you are on "city water" would be to improve the taste (esp by removing chlorine and its by-products). If chlorine or organic chemicals are the issue, then a carbon filter is usually all that is needed to make the water taste a lot better, and they are quite inexpensive (an undersink setup costs about $50, and replacement filters are about $30).

 

[jzajzz]

While this is the general recommendation, and it makes sense and I would suggest to follow it, I can attest that it isn't always needed.

I moved into this house in 1992, the water heater was 6 years old. We are on a well, the hot water had a rotten egg smell when we moved in, probably due to sitting empty for a few weeks, and a reaction with the anode rod (this is a common problem). So I replaced the anode rod with the less active type (alum versus magnesium, forget which is which). The smell went away, all good.

So ~ 4 years later, I decide to replace the anode rod as recommended. I could not get it to budge. Decided I might break something if I tried harder, so I gave up. We replaced that water heater last year when we had the furnace and AC replaced, it was still working fine - that's a 30 year old water heater (basic, cheap Sears brand - 6 year warranty), about 24 years without an anode rod replacement.

I don't know what accounts for that, just providing a data point.

-ERD50

Good to know .. to be completely transparent.. the recommendations I made are from what many plumbers have told me.. Now granted, their thinking is that you would hire them every 2 years to replace the anode rod, so they would have to deal with issues like yours.


And of course, there's a cost to that.

 

[Ready]

I had two plumbers come out this week to give me quotes. Both quoted me a 50 gallon Bradford White high efficiency hot water heater, and a recirculation pump. The water heater is $750, and the pump is $300. They are charging me $1,200 for labor and miscellaneous parts for a total of $2,250.

The second plumber was $2,550. Both plumbers had good references so I went with the lower one. The labor seems high, but they have to remove two existing units on the third floor of my home (no elevator), and then carry the new one up two flights of stairs. And this is Southern California, so labor is a bit higher out here.

The plumber thinks the low water pressure problem will be solved when they install the new heater. So hopefully we'll be back to having hot showers without having to run the water for ten minutes first.

For the pump, rather than using the mechanical timer that comes with it, I was thinking of buying a TP-Link wifi plug and just controlling the on/off times through the plug using my iPhone. Does anyone see an issue with doing this? The unit would essentially be turned on and off by having the power on the plug turn on and off, rather than using the built in timer, but it would give me much better control over the on/off times than a mechanical unit.

 

[travelover]

I had two plumbers come out this week to give me quotes. ..........

I do think the labor is high, but maybe that is the going rate in your area.

As long as the recirculating pump has on "always on" position, you should be able to plug it into a wifi operated on /off switch.

 

[ERD50]

I had two plumbers come out this week to give me quotes. Both quoted me a 50 gallon Bradford White high efficiency hot water heater, ...

OK, you just gotta stop that! It's a water heater, period!

...
and a recirculation pump. The water heater is $750, and the pump is $300. They are charging me $1,200 for labor and miscellaneous parts for a total of $2,250.

The second plumber was $2,550. Both plumbers had good references so I went with the lower one. The labor seems high, but they have to remove two existing units on the third floor of my home (no elevator), and then carry the new one up two flights of stairs. And this is Southern California, so labor is a bit higher out here.

Sure seems high, but if that is what they get in that location, that's what they get.

The plumber thinks the low water pressure problem will be solved when they install the new heater. So hopefully we'll be back to having hot showers without having to run the water for ten minutes first.

Maybe I missed it, but did you mention a low pressure problem before? That seems unlikely to be due to a water heater? I assume the need to run the water for 10 minutes was the circulation pump issue?

For the pump, rather than using the mechanical timer that comes with it, I was thinking of buying a TP-Link wifi plug and just controlling the on/off times through the plug using my iPhone. Does anyone see an issue with doing this? The unit would essentially be turned on and off by having the power on the plug turn on and off, rather than using the built in timer, but it would give me much better control over the on/off times than a mechanical unit.

I recall seeing, On "This Old House" I think - a motion sensor in a bathroom, that would run the circulation pump for ten minutes or so when motion was detected. That might still be too long a delay for you though.

-ERD50

 

[samclem]

For the pump, rather than using the mechanical timer that comes with it, I was thinking of buying a TP-Link wifi plug and just controlling the on/off times through the plug using my iPhone. Does anyone see an issue with doing this? The unit would essentially be turned on and off by having the power on the plug turn on and off, rather than using the built in timer, but it would give me much better control over the on/off times than a mechanical unit.

Will you really want to mess with this small thing that often? How much control do you really need? It's another thing to go wrong (when the pump stops working, you'll need to troubleshoot to decide if the problem is the pump, this wizz-bang wifi switch, what the app is telling it to do, if you have good comms to your router, etc.) Every time you get a new phone (and possibly when the phone updates its OS), you'll need to update whatever app controls it. Too many interdependencies, IMO. KISS. The pump is only moving a small amount of water, right? I'd want a mechanical timer (or a electronic one) that plugs right into an outlet and is a commodity item available anywhere and is easily replaced. Set it to go on and off at the same time every day. If you want to take a shower at 3AM for some reason on a particular morning, then you'll need to run the water for ten minutes.

It seems unlikely any water pressure problem is due to the water heater. Do all fixtures in the house have low pressure, or just that bathroom, or just the shower?

The cost does seem high. I doubt a trained, qualified plumber will be wrestling those two tanks down the stairs and bringing up the new one, and day labor is not very expensive in most parts of SoCal. IOW, you may be paying the company a lot, but I doubt the guys doing the work are getting much of it.