RetiredGypsy
Full time employment: Posting here.
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You are joking right?
Only completely.
Retail Store Closings
- Thread starter imoldernu
- Start date
Only completely.
COcheesehead
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
In some cases yes. In the last couple months I picked up some nice 100% wool sweaters that are still being sold retail. One was $8.99 versus $59.99 at Banana, the other was $20 versus $99 at Carbon2cobalt. Both look new and the Banana one still had the dry cleaner tag on it.
meierlde
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Actually the story of Sears is a now 40 year decline from being the #1 retailer in the country. Macys is really a rollup of a lot of local department stores (that used to keep the local newspaper in business with lots and lots of adds), into one brand so that they can advertise nationally and the like. It is interesting the pendulum we see. At one time sears worked very much like amazon with the old big book (a huge catalog) you mailed in or later telephoned in your order and in a few days it appeared (even true before parcel post as the shipped to the local Railway Express Depot, although back then there were extra charges for being west of the Mississippi river.) Then Sears dropped out of the catalog business and established lots and lots of stores, and deemphasized the catalog business with the big book being dropped in 1993. Interestingly there was then an unfilled niche and amazon started with books in 1994 (which sears did no really sell in the big book). Today Amazon is really almost a super big version of the old Sears big book. Yes ordering is faster than when the order went by mail, but was a phone in order electronic commerce?
Today we see Amazon hinting at trying the grow retail strategy that worked for 40 years for Sears and then spectacularly failed.
A Proposal...
Didn't think the subject would draw this much interest.
Peaked my own interest as a result of eight years Sears, and twenty years at Montgomery Ward, all in management. The handwriting was on the wall as early as 1976, when Mobil Oil bought my company. My last positions were as National Sales Manager for Catalog, and then to oversee the closing some 2200 catalog stores and phone units by 1985.
With nearly 5 million Americans involved in retail sales, the loss of jobs could be catastrophic, and the decentralization of community shopping (empty buildings, change in social structure) dangerous to the way of life to which we've become accustomed.
The idea that all shopping be done on-line, with direct deliveries (albeit even with drones) could well be impossible. (Leaving that to your own imagination).
So... a problem without a solution? Let me speculate... WHAT IF?:
1. Instead of shuttering Malls, the largest anchors would be turned over to become giant automated warehouses.
2. Instead of closing all of the various franchises (read that store brand names), with all of the bloated inventory... the they would instead be turned into/relocated to much smaller spaces. Instead of stocking tens of thousands of dollars in inventory... just offer displays... one each, sample of color, size, or item, to touch, feel, try on etc... to preview.
3. Automated ordering from the warehouse where minimal back upsupplies of the item would be maintained. The sold items would be ramped to a central airport style luggage retrieval for pick up or to loading dock. The sales would be tallied and reordered for shipment to central locations ala Federal Express/UPS. Replenishment basically the same as the Walmart sell one/replace one concept.
Economies of scale are the only means to keep thousands of retailers functional, profitable, and more importantly (for you and me)... competitive.
The nominal size of a small mall store is 3 to 6 thousand square feet in size. By restructuring the store sizes, there would still be unused space, which could be repurposed for offices, civic functions etal. that will be advantaged by central access and adequate parking. The smaller spaces would provide reasonable rental costs and public access for entrprenurial new start up businesses.
Keep the infrastructure, keep the existing brands, offer new opportunities for small business, and lessen the job losses by downsizing rather than eliminating, and maintaining the competitive pricing through competition.
Just some Sunday morning freeflight musings, from an old man who remembers the days when retailing was a person to person business.
Didn't think the subject would draw this much interest.
Peaked my own interest as a result of eight years Sears, and twenty years at Montgomery Ward, all in management. The handwriting was on the wall as early as 1976, when Mobil Oil bought my company. My last positions were as National Sales Manager for Catalog, and then to oversee the closing some 2200 catalog stores and phone units by 1985.
With nearly 5 million Americans involved in retail sales, the loss of jobs could be catastrophic, and the decentralization of community shopping (empty buildings, change in social structure) dangerous to the way of life to which we've become accustomed.
The idea that all shopping be done on-line, with direct deliveries (albeit even with drones) could well be impossible. (Leaving that to your own imagination).
So... a problem without a solution? Let me speculate... WHAT IF?:
1. Instead of shuttering Malls, the largest anchors would be turned over to become giant automated warehouses.
2. Instead of closing all of the various franchises (read that store brand names), with all of the bloated inventory... the they would instead be turned into/relocated to much smaller spaces. Instead of stocking tens of thousands of dollars in inventory... just offer displays... one each, sample of color, size, or item, to touch, feel, try on etc... to preview.
3. Automated ordering from the warehouse where minimal back upsupplies of the item would be maintained. The sold items would be ramped to a central airport style luggage retrieval for pick up or to loading dock. The sales would be tallied and reordered for shipment to central locations ala Federal Express/UPS. Replenishment basically the same as the Walmart sell one/replace one concept.
Economies of scale are the only means to keep thousands of retailers functional, profitable, and more importantly (for you and me)... competitive.
The nominal size of a small mall store is 3 to 6 thousand square feet in size. By restructuring the store sizes, there would still be unused space, which could be repurposed for offices, civic functions etal. that will be advantaged by central access and adequate parking. The smaller spaces would provide reasonable rental costs and public access for entrprenurial new start up businesses.
Keep the infrastructure, keep the existing brands, offer new opportunities for small business, and lessen the job losses by downsizing rather than eliminating, and maintaining the competitive pricing through competition.
Just some Sunday morning freeflight musings, from an old man who remembers the days when retailing was a person to person business.
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W2R
Moderator Emeritus
Aren't Diehard car batteries any good any more?
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Interesting speculation and very true. A lot of today's over-sized retail malls are a phenomena of the 80's and beyond.
Back in the 60's and 70's, we had a membership store in SoCal called FedMart which was the early version of Costco. It was a big-box that offered everything including gas. There were also big-box stores - I can't recall the name - that would show endless aisles of display items - with no floor inventory - and you'd take a ticket to the checkout and they would bring you the item on a conveyor belt from the warehouse in the back.
The internet is having an effect but Costco doesn't seem to be hurting much. Retail has been constantly evolving and perhaps some of the older ideas may become fashionable again....
Ronstar
Moderator Emeritus
Didn't think the subject would draw this much interest.
Peaked my own interest as a result of eight years Sears, and twenty years at Montgomery Ward, all in management. The handwriting was on the wall as early as 1976, when Mobil Oil bought my company. My last positions were as National Sales Manager for Catalog, and then to oversee the closing some 2200 catalog stores and phone units by 1985.
With nearly 5 million Americans involved in retail sales, the loss of jobs could be catastrophic, and the decentralization of community shopping (empty buildings, change in social structure) dangerous to the way of life to which we've become accustomed.
The idea that all shopping be done on-line, with direct deliveries (albeit even with drones) could well be impossible. (Leaving that to your own imagination).
So... a problem without a solution? Let me speculate... WHAT IF?:
1. Instead of shuttering Malls, the largest anchors would be turned over to become giant automated warehouses.
2. Instead of closing all of the various franchises (read that store brand names), with all of the bloated inventory... the they would instead be turned into/relocated to much smaller spaces. Instead of stocking tens of thousands of dollars in inventory... just offer displays... one each, sample of color, size, or item, to touch, feel, try on etc... to preview.
3. Automated ordering from the warehouse where minimal back upsupplies of the item would be maintained. The sold items would be ramped to a central airport style luggage retrieval for pick up or to loading dock. The sales would be tallied and reordered for shipment to central locations ala Federal Express/UPS. Replenishment basically the same as the Walmart sell one/replace one concept.
Economies of scale are the only means to keep thousands of retailers functional, profitable, and more importantly (for you and me)... competitive.
The nominal size of a small mall store is 3 to 6 thousand square feet in size. By restructuring the store sizes, there would still be unused space, which could be repurposed for offices, civic functions etal. that will be advantaged by central access and adequate parking. The smaller spaces would provide reasonable rental costs and public access for entrprenurial new start up businesses.
Keep the infrastructure, keep the existing brands, offer new opportunities for small business, and lessen the job losses by downsizing rather than eliminating, and maintaining the competitive pricing through competition.
Just some Sunday morning freeflight musings, from an old man who remembers the days when retailing was a person to person business.
Some good ideas. Not sure how conversion to warehouses would work. Modern warehouses exceed 1 million SF, are always near interstate highways, and have dozens if not hundreds of truck bays. Conversion of existing anchor stores into these types of warehouses may be cost prohibitive.
I've worked on defunct mall projects where the malls were demolished and replaced by a variety of uses. Car auction sites, walmarts, big box home improvement stores, office complexes.
Times change, spending habits change, and the standard malls with anchor stores seem to have problems adapting. It's just too easy to buy things online.
I think the music industry is way ahead of most other retail segments because of the scarcity of retail outlets and the monopolization of Guitar Center and similar national retailers suffering from big-box-itis (and crappy service). At the same time there are a new wave of smaller retail music stores (and manufacturers) - especially in electronic music - that cater to their local communities as well as a large, loyal online community of people who search for and know these retailers intimately even though their only store may be thousands of miles away. Then there's Sweetwater - the Gateway of the retail music industry.
The big-box distribution of products can be duplicated. What is harder to duplicate is the purchasing power that the big retailers bring to the industry and the inventory in the pipeline/on the wall that is orders of magnitude larger than the small companies; and that make the economics of big-multinational companies like Fender, Gibson and Roland possible.
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Am familiar with one of these... Service Merchandise might want to read a bit about the concept. It's now only online.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences-and-law/economics-business-and-labor/businesses-and-occupations/service-merchandise
Music Lover
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Music stores also offer lessons, which helps the bottom line. And if you're there anyway, you may as well buy a new set of strings because they are the same price as Amazon.
Another factor is that most of the big names...Gibson, Fender, Taylor, Martin, Ibanez, etc. all practice minimum pricing regardless if being sold online or in the B&M location. I probably mis-stated in my earlier comment that a guitar may be cheaper online...I did buy a bass at less than "retail" price online, but it was a discontinued model with no remaining stock at any store.
Musical instruments are also very much a hands-on purchase....very few people will buy a guitar or amp unless they have tried it first. I did buy that bass online, but already own 2 by the same manufacturer and had tried that particular one a couple years ago.
That's it. Thanks. We used to have a Best Products nearby. That was the name I couldn't remember.
As the thread passes into history, one last shot at the warehousing... a memory of the first major (large) random access, automated, computerized warehouse in the retail industry. Short story of my involvement.
During my tenure at Montgomery Ward, I worked at several of the ten major Catalog Houses. These were combinations of a retail store and a catalog storage warehouse (about 1 million s.f.. At the time, (and even now in some businesses) the warehouse is/was divided into departmental sections. Thus, a section for lawn equipment, one for shoes, one for paint, one for TV's, one for men's clothing etc., etc. Depending on the season, or the sales, this meant that most of the time there was a lot of empty space that was not being used.
In 1980, we bult the first retail warehouse designed for efficiency, and automation in Cincinnatti Ohio. Instead of hundreds of people moving goods back and forth, and a large management staff, a brave new project (at the time)...
Computers that kept track of each item individually. Robot trucks, driven by a moving chain driven track in the floor, and having hydraulic lifts that could rise to take items from stacked shelves. .. and then deliver the goods to selected eighteen wheelers that would ship to hundreds of stores. at the time, a lot to get one's mind around. This dropped the number employees (as I recall) from about 150 to less than 50.
I can remember the celebration, as the move to the future was celebrated throughout the company, and especially in the home office in Chicago, where I was working at the time. It was on a Thursday.
On Friday, the computerized system went down... lost forever. A major catastrophe with about 10 million dollars (about 150,000 different (sku's) items) randomly stocked in a huge warehouse a piece here, a piece there...., with no identification. Shoes stocked next to tractors, screwdrivers next to hats... no order whatsoever.
Massive recovery operation... flying in from all parts of the country, Oakland, Baltimore, Fort Worth, Albany, Denver... etc, many dozen management personnel to work in putting the "spilled rice" back into place. About a weeks work, round the clock. It was my introduction as an intermediary to the computer team, 6 girls from IBM, who knew nothing about retailing, and my own inexpertise with their specialty. 16 hour days, and sleeping at my desk.
Compared to today, imagine the "what if the internet grid went down".
During my tenure at Montgomery Ward, I worked at several of the ten major Catalog Houses. These were combinations of a retail store and a catalog storage warehouse (about 1 million s.f.. At the time, (and even now in some businesses) the warehouse is/was divided into departmental sections. Thus, a section for lawn equipment, one for shoes, one for paint, one for TV's, one for men's clothing etc., etc. Depending on the season, or the sales, this meant that most of the time there was a lot of empty space that was not being used.
In 1980, we bult the first retail warehouse designed for efficiency, and automation in Cincinnatti Ohio. Instead of hundreds of people moving goods back and forth, and a large management staff, a brave new project (at the time)...
Computers that kept track of each item individually. Robot trucks, driven by a moving chain driven track in the floor, and having hydraulic lifts that could rise to take items from stacked shelves. .. and then deliver the goods to selected eighteen wheelers that would ship to hundreds of stores. at the time, a lot to get one's mind around. This dropped the number employees (as I recall) from about 150 to less than 50.
I can remember the celebration, as the move to the future was celebrated throughout the company, and especially in the home office in Chicago, where I was working at the time. It was on a Thursday.
On Friday, the computerized system went down... lost forever. A major catastrophe with about 10 million dollars (about 150,000 different (sku's) items) randomly stocked in a huge warehouse a piece here, a piece there...., with no identification. Shoes stocked next to tractors, screwdrivers next to hats... no order whatsoever.
Massive recovery operation... flying in from all parts of the country, Oakland, Baltimore, Fort Worth, Albany, Denver... etc, many dozen management personnel to work in putting the "spilled rice" back into place. About a weeks work, round the clock. It was my introduction as an intermediary to the computer team, 6 girls from IBM, who knew nothing about retailing, and my own inexpertise with their specialty. 16 hour days, and sleeping at my desk.
Compared to today, imagine the "what if the internet grid went down".
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The possibilities are only limited by one's imagination. My BIL is in the custom clothing business and the ability of robots to make customized clothes is very impressive. Could see a centralized factory that could produce pretty much any item of clothing in almost any suitable material based on photos someone could submit of themselves from their smartphone. All the fabrics made using biotech/nanotech. One in every town. Cut out all of those container ships from far off lands.
I first started buying online in the 1990's. First it was books shortly after Amazon went online because DW and I were both taking classes and textbooks were priced about half of what the college bookstore charged. Later it was radio control model airplane stuff - generally a bit cheaper, much larger selection, and best of all I didn't have to deal with the dang traffic getting to a brick 'n mortar store.
My last two Amazon orders were delivered the next day. If they can do that consistently it's hard to make a case for going to a store for much of anything, except perhaps groceries. I still want to pick out my own celery & apples.
meierlde
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
I ran into them in Houston in 1976 they were called catalog stores where you waited while what you wanted came from their warehouse area. All are gone now.
So I'm a shopper, while I do enjoy some parts of on line shopping there are other issues I don't like.
It does depend on what I have to buy. Since I'm not model size, I prefer a brick and mortar when clothes shopping.
so my take is it's a bit more than on line shopping. Now I live in Philly, and we have at least 4 malls in the area all of them have the SAME stores. seriously. all have a gap, macys, sears, jcpenny, Abercrombie and finch, yada yada yada. So all this retail space with the same stuff is competing for the same pool.
mid level stores are in a tough situation. I read that luxury department stores are doing very well. Your Nordstroms, Saks, Bloomingdales etc. products are usually unique, customer service is great and usually have not oversaturated the area. Value chains, Walmart's, targets, kohl's strength is the cheaper prices.
Macy's and sears can't compete in either arena. Macy's in the mall, you have to walk around the entire floor to find a check out station, merchandise all over the floor
It does depend on what I have to buy. Since I'm not model size, I prefer a brick and mortar when clothes shopping.
so my take is it's a bit more than on line shopping. Now I live in Philly, and we have at least 4 malls in the area all of them have the SAME stores. seriously. all have a gap, macys, sears, jcpenny, Abercrombie and finch, yada yada yada. So all this retail space with the same stuff is competing for the same pool.
mid level stores are in a tough situation. I read that luxury department stores are doing very well. Your Nordstroms, Saks, Bloomingdales etc. products are usually unique, customer service is great and usually have not oversaturated the area. Value chains, Walmart's, targets, kohl's strength is the cheaper prices.
Macy's and sears can't compete in either arena. Macy's in the mall, you have to walk around the entire floor to find a check out station, merchandise all over the floor
athena53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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I remember Service Merchandise. In the late 1980s it was VERY low-tech. You filled out a paper form with one of those little stubby golf pencils they provided, waited, and half the time they were out of the item. (I should mention that this was at a place now featured on deadmalls.com.) Naturally they could do better with this model now, but it still means you need a very large inventory on-site, and retailers seem to prefer having a central warehouse and delivering things to the stores as needed.
Some other thoughts on in-person shopping: I not only want to pick things up, test them, try them on, etc. but I want to know where they're made. I try to avoid some countries (not 100% successful but I try). Your standard clothing catalogue will just say, "Imported". Given how infrequently I buy really high-quality items (still wearing a collection of cashmere sweaters I bought in the 1990s and a dress winter coat from 1983) I'm OK with going into a high-end store and paying extra for the service and the quality.
One of my main reasons for shopping on-line is just not being able to get certain things in stores anymore. They don't want to mess with toner refills for a dozen printer brands, WaterPik replacement heads (even if they sell WaterPiks), etc. so you practically have to get them on-line. I just bought a platinum chain from a well-established e-Bay dealer because I wanted the durability of platinum (the chain will hold memorabilia of great sentimental value, including my late husband's wedding ring). We have some very good jewelry stores in this area but it's not something they carry- so it would have to be "special ordered". No, thanks.
Some other thoughts on in-person shopping: I not only want to pick things up, test them, try them on, etc. but I want to know where they're made. I try to avoid some countries (not 100% successful but I try). Your standard clothing catalogue will just say, "Imported". Given how infrequently I buy really high-quality items (still wearing a collection of cashmere sweaters I bought in the 1990s and a dress winter coat from 1983) I'm OK with going into a high-end store and paying extra for the service and the quality.
One of my main reasons for shopping on-line is just not being able to get certain things in stores anymore. They don't want to mess with toner refills for a dozen printer brands, WaterPik replacement heads (even if they sell WaterPiks), etc. so you practically have to get them on-line. I just bought a platinum chain from a well-established e-Bay dealer because I wanted the durability of platinum (the chain will hold memorabilia of great sentimental value, including my late husband's wedding ring). We have some very good jewelry stores in this area but it's not something they carry- so it would have to be "special ordered". No, thanks.
Ronstar
Moderator Emeritus
I remember Service Merchandise also. I worked in an engineering office on the 2nd floor of a 2 story building in the mid 70's. We occupied about half of the 2nd floor. Service Merchandise had the rest of the building. Their "warehouse" was half of the ground floor and half of the 2nd floor. We had a separate interior stair entrance, but we would use their elevator to move heavy stuff up to our office. They had a lot of inventory crammed in there. They also had a great business and business model at that time.
jazz4cash
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Yup. There's an app for that already. AFAIK it only offers men's dress shirts for $69 so far and I'm thinking about checking it out.
scrabbler1
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I remember Service Merchandise and its main competitor, Consumer Distributors, another catalog showroom. CD was closer to where I lived than SM was, but it went out of business sooner.
ExFlyBoy5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
How things change, huh? The threat of bad winter weather a few days ago reminded me of Block Buster video stores. When the winter forecast looked terrible, in addition to your bread, milk and eggs, you had to rush off to the video rental store so you could get some GOOD movies to watch. If you waited too long, you would be stuck watching some B movies from the 80's. Now...the choices are virtually unlimited with streaming and on demand.
Ah, I did enjoy Service Merchandise as a young teenager; looking at all the "great" electronics was pretty exciting.
Ah, I did enjoy Service Merchandise as a young teenager; looking at all the "great" electronics was pretty exciting.
Yes I remember Service Merchandise and Consumers Distributing. We only had the latter in Canada but they did have a lot of good stuff in their catalogue.
Last September Walmart announced it would cut 7000 jobs... Yesterday they announced another 1000 to be cut before January end.
Correction... In an earlier post, I said there 5 million retail jobs. That was the number of retail salespersons. The total number of jobs in the retail sector is nearly 15 million or 10% of the nation's workforce.
Correction... In an earlier post, I said there 5 million retail jobs. That was the number of retail salespersons. The total number of jobs in the retail sector is nearly 15 million or 10% of the nation's workforce.
athena53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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Is the sewing totally automated? I can see that the pattern-making and cutting could be, but I listened to a podcast once on how difficult it is to automate the actual sewing together of the pieces. Having spent my younger years making most of my own clothes, I can see that. You need to feed the fabric in at the right rate, keep the proper tension on the cloth as you do, sew a consistent distance away from the edges, and VERY carefully execute rounded curves or points. Heck, I never could do a notched collar that was good enough for my tastes.
Markola
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
So, why do Target, Home Depot, Whole Foods, and Dollar General seem to be expanding and thriving and hiring?
