Sensitive Conversations

[brett]

I consider myself to be fortunate. My parents always stressed, among other things, a very open acceptance of others. Did not matter if it was lifestyle, socioeconomic status, faith, whatever. We were taught to question and not to accept something just because someone espoused it. Plus I was raised in a very laissez faire part of the country.

I married into a family of faith, so much so that they really did believe that their version was the one and only and anything that their Pastor espoused on a Sunday or said at any other time was true and absolute. My spouse was raised in a small, very conservative part of the country. It was one of the reasons why we did not raise our children in this environment or attend any churches with this outlook.

Even today after forty years of travel and living in various parts of the country these differences are evident in how we each see the world. Now, we very much see the differences between our respective relatives.

 

[Sunset]

I suspect some people are not happy unless they can argue about whatever...... .

For the most part I enjoy hearing other folks viewpoints, sometimes I learn something new or useful, other times it just reinforces my view that I'm right.

Occasionally I'll go over and talk to my friendly neighbor and bait him into a political subject, where he will go on and on and on about his view on politics, while I poke and prod his arguments.
I think it makes him happy to be able to express his thoughts and "educate" me

 

[2017ish]

...
Occasionally I'll go over and talk to my friendly neighbor and bait him into a political subject, where he will go on and on and on about his view on politics, while I poke and prod his arguments.
I think it makes him happy to be able to express his thoughts and "educate" me

I'll opt for hitting myself in the thumb with a hammer (which I'm quite good at!). It feels so good when I stop.

 

[Taxman59]

Last Friday evening, a diverse group of friends sat around talking about NC's HB2 and the effect on the community. I feared the discussion would turn towards the politics (bashing the right and left), but the debate centered on why we as a nation have become so split with no middle ground! Why we can't talk without turning to yelling and accusing the other side. It was refreshing.


Have the day you deserve, and let Karma sort it out.

Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[kcowan]

I consider myself to be fortunate. My parents always stressed, among other things, a very open acceptance of others. Did not matter if it was lifestyle, socioeconomic status, faith, whatever. We were taught to question and not to accept something just because someone espoused it. Plus I was raised in a very laissez faire part of the country.

My family created an object lesson for me in what not to do. It was very instructive. If they say X, then let me consider Y!

It has served me very well. I learn a lot more by listening than by talking. But after listening to everyone, I get their attention when I finally contribute.

 

[ElizabethT]

I enjoy conversing about difficult issues, what I do not enjoy is being taken hostage. I also find broad sweeping generalizations to be very hard to swallow.

Meaning if you are so rude (brash?) as to make a statement that contains assumptions about my belief system(s), or that is clearly an overstatement, I'm going to push back at you.

Otherwise, nope, I don't go around looking to push my opinions onto anyone. Opinions are something we all have, and not a one is the same I'm sure.

 

[kcowan]

I have a long time workmate* (long since retired) who never says much. But when he finally speaks, everyone listens. I think it is the difference between quantity and quality.

* Known him since 1968

 

[gayl]

I try to be tolerant and internalize a lot of my feelings. It's necessary in a diverse family as no one can win if another is losing

FWIW: I'm invited to a nephew's wedding next week. This brother has never acknowledged me other than anti- Semetic rants and doubting my diplomas (I was kicked out at 16, became homeless, nevertheless graduated Summa Cum Laude from Berkeley & hold an MA from CSUDH, and am Jewish as was Dad). Yet I'm expected to go & gift $$s + 8 plates / bowls (yes, I got the memo).

Single parent (yes they say I'm a failure) Republican who cannot support Trump's agenda (just why would Mexico pay for his fence?) who will get an earful from an opinionated Tea Bag sister on how I am a traitor if I vote for anyone else or mention a BF or my gay grandson

Thankfully I have 2 other sisters (1 Jewish, 1 Christian) and it's at a winery

 

[Amethyst]

Oh, gayl, that sounds awful. Me, I wouldn't go!


But...at least at a winery, there might be some tastings to distract people from all those rampaging opinions?

I try to be tolerant and internalize a lot of my feelings. It's necessary in a diverse family as no one can win if another is losing

FWIW: I'm invited to a nephew's wedding next week. This brother has never acknowledged me other than anti- Semetic rants and doubting my diplomas (I was kicked out at 16, became homeless, nevertheless graduated Summa Cum Laude from Berkeley & hold an MA from CSUDH, and am Jewish as was Dad). Yet I'm expected to go & gift $$s + 8 plates / bowls (yes, I got the memo).

Single parent (yes they say I'm a failure) Republican who cannot support Trump's agenda (just why would Mexico pay for his fence?) who will get an earful from an opinionated Tea Bag sister on how I am a traitor if I vote for anyone else or mention a BF or my gay grandson

Thankfully I have 2 other sisters (1 Jewish, 1 Christian) and it's at a winery

 

[Music Lover]

While I do enjoy harmony as much as the next person, I don't have any problem speaking up when someone is spouting nonsense. People are entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts. Some people do not deserve quiet acceptance of their ignorance.

 

[Meadbh]

People are entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Well put! I'm going to use that quote!

 

[kcowan]

Well, speaking up might make you feel good, but it will have no effect.

 

[HFWR]

Well, speaking up might make you feel good, but it will have no effect.

Yeah, that...

Though I stay out of most political mash-ups, say on Facebook, it is frustrating to see so much misinformation being bandied about, by both sides of the spectrum. I have, on occasion, posted counterfactuals to the assorted nonsense, which is promptly ignored, or sometimes chastised as being mainstream media, bought-and-paid for research, or some other conspiratorial nonsense. Granted, even using the same "facts" can still result in disagreements over "solutions"...

I'd like to think that my opinions are grounded in a decent awareness of history, economics, science, etc., and that I am flexible enough to consider changing my view if a given POV makes more sense in some way, but in my experience, these discussions are similar to our so-called "debates", i.e. mostly soundbites of dubious accuracy or relevance. An actual debate requires study, preparation, and research. Most don't seem to have the attention span for anything longer than a soundbite, and don't seem willing to do any research. As we sometimes say on this very forum: LMGTFY...

 

[Music Lover]

Well, speaking up might make you feel good, but it will have no effect.

Sometimes it shuts them up for a while. They may not change their mind, but sometimes shutting them up is enough. Rewarding fools with an audience often only encourages them to continue.

 

[Nemo2]

Well put! I'm going to use that quote!

Faith & Begorrah, and wasn't it Daniel Patrick Moynihan hisself who was after saying that.

 

[ERD50]

People are entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Well put! I'm going to use that quote!

But the problem is, most/some of theses 'opinion spouters' have no interest in facts. Facts have as much effect on them as a ping pong ball thrown at an elephant (they usually don't grasp analogies either ).

I don't get enough opportunities to practice this, but I have a plan for some of these discussions. Not enough practice as these topics are usually avoided, and often interrupted - in a social situation, most people don't want to get into an extended debate on some topic. Even though I love discussions like that, even I realize that it just isn't right for many situations. But my plan:

Rather than counter every point, if you can, go along with as much as you are able, and use more open ended responses if you can't do that without being a hypocrite. For example - " if I accept that point, then that leads to...". By going along with them as long as you can, you just might get them to listen to you, rather than just shut you out and spout. Usually, they are so wrong that you can go a long way in agreement, and still show them that there is a hole in the thinking at the end. Then, when you sense they are maybe listening, you can start planting some seeds of doubt (w/o actually confronting them directly). Something like, " hmmm, we just agreed that x, y, z could be true, but if that's the case, doesn't that mean (insert some inconvenient truth here)? ..."

If they just blow that off, it's a lost cause, might as well talk to a brick. Sometimes, they sense they are trapped, they get a scrunched up look on their face, and will change the subject on their own. Which is just as well.

-ERD50

 

[Nemo2]

What I find to be ultra-convenient is that 'they' are always in the wrong.

 

[kcowan]

If they just blow that off, it's a lost cause, might as well talk to a brick. Sometimes, they sense they are trapped, they get a scrunched up look on their face, and will change the subject on their own. Which is just as well.

-ERD50

Often I find that they are just waiting for you to get finished while they formulate their retort. You can test this by interrupting them and ask them a question about what you just said. When you get a blank stare, you just confirmed.

On a forum you can test this because they either quote your entire post or none of it.

 

[Amethyst]

What you describe is an approach that I found useful at work, where people had a vested interest in getting to the "correct" answer (one that would keep them out of trouble). Your approach is a way to lead people toward a better answer while saving face all round.

Using it in private settings, though, can lead to problems.
For example, there is a tendency for women of a certain age to complain about "politicians" referring to Social Security and Medicare as "entitlements." "I paid for those benefits!" they'll cry.

When I point out that the benefits in question are, in fact, budgetary entitlements - and a good thing, too, since it means that anyone who's legally entitled to those benefits, and applies for them, must receive them - the ladies are far from being relieved to learn that nobody is actually calling them welfare recipients. The next response is usually some non sequitur like, "Well, I really meant all those things that Congress thinks they are entitled to." And then they close down, and I am now persona non grata, the Woman Who Knew Too Much.

Bottom line - many people enjoy moaning and groaning about things they don't really want to understand, and logic only ruins their fun.

Rather than counter every point, if you can, go along with as much as you are able, and use more open ended responses if you can't do that without being a hypocrite. For example - " if I accept that point, then that leads to...". By going along with them as long as you can, you just might get them to listen to you, rather than just shut you out and spout. Usually, they are so wrong that you can go a long way in agreement, and still show them that there is a hole in the thinking at the end. Then, when you sense they are maybe listening, you can start planting some seeds of doubt (w/o actually confronting them directly). Something like, " hmmm, we just agreed that x, y, z could be true, but if that's the case, doesn't that mean (insert some inconvenient truth here)? ..."

I

-ERD50

 

[braumeister]

People are entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Well put! I'm going to use that quote!

It has long been one of my favorite quotes. Generally attributed to Daniel Patrick Moynihan, but not always.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Daniel_Patrick_Moynihan

 

[MRG]

What I find to be ultra-convenient is that 'they' are always in the wrong.

They ain't us!

 

[M Paquette]

It's great to speak up, until the perpetrator collects some 'friends' and seeks to vigorously convince one of the error of one's ways.

I generally save speaking up for very controlled environments. I like the idea of a long retirement.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[HFWR]

I like the idea of a long retirement.

I like the idea of a quiet retirement. Besides, I'm overwhelmingly outnumbered...

 

[Elbata]

 

[Brett_Cameron]

I don't even try to handles the differences around me, just acknowledge and enjoy them. From these differences we learn, compare, improve.

Variety is the spice of life.

This is a very good philosophy and practice.