Tesla to start charging customers for a "connectivity" fee going forward

[gamboolman]

The nickel and diming is all so tiring. Like the dam "Resort Fee's"....

Dam aggravating for sure.

 

[swakyaby]

The nickel and diming is all so tiring. Like the dam "Resort Fee's"....

Dam aggravating for sure.

I have owned our Tesla for 8 years now. Glad to have been grandfathered in to unlimited free supercharging and no extra fees for connectivity and all the software upgrades. Maps, navigation, Slacker radio . . . really has been an excellent car so far. About every 3 years, replace the 12 volt battery. Really not much maintenance to speak of. Hope to hold on to this car for as long as it remains practical.

 

[NW-Bound]

The Internet connectivity of modern cars has some values. It costs money for the car makers to pay for the wireless link to a cellular carrier, and to maintain their Web servers. They have to at least recoup that cost, and that's fair.

The question is how much they charge, and whether the car owner thinks he needs the service enough to pay it. If this service is optional and expensive, like what GM offers for my 2020 car, I refuse it, and my car still operates fine. But if it is mandatory, meaning my car is bricked unless I pay the ransom, then it's something else entirely.

As the OP post was about Tesla cars, do we know what happens to a Tesla car if its owner refuses to pay?

 

[freedomatlast]

Since this has kind of turned into an all things Tesla thread, I'm wondering about the total long term reliability of their cars.

I guy I know has a '21 Model 3 stealth performance. He's had it for a little over a year with 31,000 miles on it now. The performance is great but the reliability has been worse than his previous BMW's which is saying a lot. All in, it has required more than $21,000 dollars in warranty work to date. Both front wheel motors have been replaced twice. The first time due to a recall because they were defective from the factory, the second time because they would make strange, abnormal noises while driving. Then there was the time the vehicle is supposed to automatically put the windows up when parked. About an hour after parking it, he gets a message on his phone that the car is telling him that the windows aren't up and have malfunctioned. The problem was that this message was received during a downpour of rain that lasted about 20 minutes. He goes out, the interior is full of water, the seat positions don't move, there is a faint electrical burning wire small and when he drives away, the windows are going up and down intermittently. The dealer takes it in, verifies that the window up after parking function did not work properly, guts the interior, replaces driver's seat, interior wiring and gives it back. Same issue persists and they replace the passenger's seat and more wiring. Now there's an unresolved issue of the screen freezing intermittently. And the real treat (this time not Tesla's fault) is coming back from the dealer the last time, he was pulled over by a PA state trooper because the car hadn't been emissions tested and didn't have a PA state emissions sticker. When he explained to the officer the car didn't burn fossil fuels and didn't emit any emissions, the officer copped an attitude and wrote a ticket anyway. Another day off of work to fight a ridiculous ticket. BTW, he lost the case. Turns out all electric cars in certain counties need an emissions exemption sticker according to PA law, but the dealer doesn't have any because the dealer says the state never told them they needed to test electric cars for emissions. Needless to say, he's dumping this before the warranty is up and not buying another. Is this typical of Tesla reliability?

 

[MRG]

Since this has kind of turned into an all things Tesla thread, I'm wondering about the total long term reliability of their cars.

I guy I know has a '21 Model 3 stealth performance. He's had it for a little over a year with 31,000 miles on it now. The performance is great but the reliability has been worse than his previous BMW's which is saying a lot. All in, it has required more than $21,000 dollars in warranty work to date. Both front wheel motors have been replaced twice. The first time due to a recall because they were defective from the factory, the second time because they would make strange, abnormal noises while driving. Then there was the time the vehicle is supposed to automatically put the windows up when parked. About an hour after parking it, he gets a message on his phone that the car is telling him that the windows aren't up and have malfunctioned. The problem was that this message was received during a downpour of rain that lasted about 20 minutes. He goes out, the interior is full of water, the seat positions don't move, there is a faint electrical burning wire small and when he drives away, the windows are going up and down intermittently. The dealer takes it in, verifies that the window up after parking function did not work properly, guts the interior, replaces driver's seat, interior wiring and gives it back. Same issue persists and they replace the passenger's seat and more wiring. Now there's an unresolved issue of the screen freezing intermittently. And the real treat (this time not Tesla's fault) is coming back from the dealer the last time, he was pulled over by a PA state trooper because the car hadn't been emissions tested and didn't have a PA state emissions sticker. When he explained to the officer the car didn't burn fossil fuels and didn't emit any emissions, the officer copped an attitude and wrote a ticket anyway. Another day off of work to fight a ridiculous ticket. BTW, he lost the case. Turns out all electric cars in certain counties need an emissions exemption sticker according to PA law, but the dealer doesn't have any because the dealer says the state never told them they needed to test electric cars for emissions. Needless to say, he's dumping this before the warranty is up and not buying another. Is this typical of Tesla reliability?

No,

Sounds like your friend should investigate lemon laws because he has one.

 

[zinger1457]

No,

Sounds like your friend should investigate lemon laws because he has one.

The above case may be extreme but Tesla does have problems, Tesla was ranked 27 out of 28 brands on Consumer Reports reliability rankings.

 

[MRG]

The above case may be extreme but Tesla does have problems, Tesla was ranked 27 out of 28 brands on Consumer Reports reliability rankings.

Did you read this review? It's mostly abouts panel gaps....

 

[zinger1457]

Did you read this review? It's mostly abouts panel gaps....

Yes, I did read it.

Tesla’s Model 3 has average reliability. The Model Y still has body hardware issues with the tailgate and door alignment, paint defects, and multiple other problems. The Model X and Model S have body hardware, climate system, and in-car electronics problems. All three models are well below average.

 

[spencnor]

The Internet connectivity of modern cars has some values. It costs money for the car makers to pay for the wireless link to a cellular carrier, and to maintain their Web servers. They have to at least recoup that cost, and that's fair.

The question is how much they charge, and whether the car owner thinks he needs the service enough to pay it. If this service is optional and expensive, like what GM offers for my 2020 car, I refuse it, and my car still operates fine. But if it is mandatory, meaning my car is bricked unless I pay the ransom, then it's something else entirely.

Seems like Tesla’s connectivity costs may be a “bargain”

https://www.onstar.com/us/en/plans-pricing

 

[NW-Bound]

^^^ Ridiculous, is it not? I refused to pay the above fees because I already have my cell phone. Without the cell phone, is the above a viable deal? I am not sure.

I wonder how many subscribers GM has.

 

[Koolau]

Heh, heh, just like a heroin dealer. Get you hooked and then start charging you for what they used to give as samples. Very good idea - for Tesla. I'd be looking for similar kinds of up-charges and add-ons in the future. Who's gonna let their car just sit when all you have to do is pay a couple of monthly fees to keep it going (until the battery bricks on you.) Brilliant! And to think! Your gummint helped you get the thing with a rebate. How great is that?

 

[Telly]

Well, that sounds like a direct application of Ko'olau's Law, doesn't it?

 

[RobLJ]

From what I read elsewhere (including another thread on this forum) it's not just EV's going to it, maybe all or most vehilcles will.

For now though I'll plan on keeping my 2003 GMC 4WD pickup for as long as I can. I can't think of a thing that a new truck would do that would make it worth $50k+ to me.

I can't speak to what will happen to future cars. But our 2019 Bolt EV works fine without the MyChevy App, as well as the 2021 RAV PHEV. We use GoogleMaps for navigation on our phones (displays on the dash display). Tesla is Tesla, though.

 

[Member]

Maybe this is for Model S and Model X? My Model 3 Performance came with one year of free connectivity and it was clear at purchase that I’d pay after that. It provides Internet access to the vehicle and, as far as I know, in my case it keeps Maps, Browsing, and Spotify working. It’s $10.40 a month with tax in Wisconsin. I’m fine with paying it.

Buying the car was great. Picking up the car was effectively “It’s over there. Drop the papers in the box on the side of the building on your way out.” While this surprised me, I didn’t care because I don’t need a party at the dealership at time of delivery.

Owning it has been great. The color of the plastic body panels doesn’t exactly match the color of the metal body panels and the panel gaps are definitely not BMW-class but we allow Tesla these deficiencies because the rest of the car is so good.

It’s hard to describe the experience of ownership and driving one and why it’s so good. I’d suggest you don’t knock it until you’ve driven one. It’s the best car I’ve ever owned and I’ve had some good ones like BMW M3s, a VW Golf R, etc.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Maybe this is for Model S and Model X? My Model 3 Performance came with one year of free connectivity and it was clear at purchase that I’d pay after that. It provides Internet access to the vehicle and, as far as I know, in my case it keeps Maps, Browsing, and Spotify working. It’s $10.40 a month with tax in Wisconsin. I’m fine with paying it.

Buying the car was great. Picking up the car was effectively “It’s over there. Drop the papers in the box on the side of the building on your way out.” While this surprised me, I didn’t care because I don’t need a party at the dealership at time of delivery.

Owning it has been great. The color of the plastic body panels doesn’t exactly match the color of the metal body panels and the panel gaps are definitely not BMW-class but we allow Tesla these deficiencies because the rest of the car is so good.

It’s hard to describe the experience of ownership and driving one and why it’s so good. I’d suggest you don’t knock it until you’ve driven one. It’s the best car I’ve ever owned and I’ve had some good ones like BMW M3s, a VW Golf R, etc.

I liked them so much I bought 3.

 

[almost there]

Thats how things with subsidies work. They cant make it on their own.
So, they get you hooked into thinking one thing. Then in time, you find out the truth. This whole Green initiative is based on this. Wind, solar, EV's etc. If you don't believe me, just wait.... Cant fight reality or the free market. Forever.

 

[mrfancypants]

subscriptions...

I have to admit, after reading all the backlash in this thread, I thought about all the other things in my life that I pay to keep connected to some form of supporting infrastructure, and I just had to chuckle a bit at all the fuss about car connectivity subscriptions:


* I own my home wiring but I pay the electric company to maintain a line/service to my house (+ cost of electricity.)
* I own my home furnace but I pay the gas company to maintain a line/service to my house (+ cost of gas.)
* I own my home but (by law) I pay the county annually for surrounding roads to be maintained, the nearby schools to be maintained, and so on...
* I own my TV but I pay comcast, netflix, hulu, etc. for content to watch...
* I own my cable modem but I pay the cable company to provide internet access.
* I own my cellphone but I pay a telecom provider to maintain a calling and data network that I can use.
* I own my car but I pay the state for the privilege of operating it on public roads.


It might feel odd because it doesn't match how cars worked in the past, but upon reflection I have no qualms with paying a regular fee to maintain the extra options and benefits that an 'connected' vehicle provides to me (which, in the case of the Tesla, I find to be pretty amazing...)

 

[Zathras]

Intentional lie or just not understanding the connectivity package?

14 years ago, my Prius needed an update every few years for nav map updates. This wasn’t free. Car companies have been doing this ever since “connectivity” was a part of cars.
GM’s OnStar? Free for 2-3 years and then a monthly fee.

Now, because Tesla has more connectivity than most other cars, slightly more is affected by this, such as FM radio and Blue Tooth connectivity.
But over the air updates and all driving functions are not dependent on either Premium or Standard connectivity packages.

 

[Zathras]

Thats how things with subsidies work. They cant make it on their own. …

Sigh… Tesla hasn’t had subsidies (beyond what any business can get) for years.

 

[Sonoma_steve]

Tesla and EV hate

I really like this forum. Ask a question on Roth IRAs, SOcial Security timing, health care, ACA and I read incredibly nuanced responses..super helpful.
Bring up Tesla or EV and it seems like so many lose the plot. An EV is a really smart buy for many retirees. Running costs are astonishingly low, maintenance almost zero, warranties are long. They are not for everyone but for many they should be given serious consideration in retirement. 5 cents a mile if I charge at home, 0 cents a mile if you have solar, no 5,000 mile service appointments, I touch the brake once a week so I think brake pad replacements are never happening. Don’t believe the talk about lack of charge stations. My DW and I have driven 25,000 in our Kia Niro EV and 15,000 in our Tesla. No problems with charging. The Tesla is about as much fun as you can have driving. The Kia Niro EV IMO is the best made value for money EV on the market. I actually chose EVs because I thought it was a good environment choice but I’ve since discovered they can provide lifetime savings over gas cars..certainly the Kia, probably not the Tesla but heck you have to have fun.

 

[braumeister]

Bring up Tesla or EV and it seems like so many lose the plot. An EV is a really smart buy for many retirees.

(emphasis added)

I agree with what you say, but I believe that many EV enthusiasts don't stop to consider that "many" is not the same as "most".

There are still a lot of us old fossils around who actually enjoy the process of cross-county driving. Here is an example from my own experience:

I recently did a long driving trip (three days) and had to stop for gas six times. About five minutes each time at a gas station, so half an hour or so total.

I looked at the Tesla routing and tried the same trip. I would have had to stop more than a dozen times for a total of nearly six hours sitting at superchargers.

That just isn't acceptable to me. Interestingly, I rented a Tesla last year for five days and didn't like it. The ride was extremely harsh compared to my regular car, and the road noise was so loud it was horrible. Admittedly, I learned later that it had been a "performance model", but that couldn't excuse everything.

No argument that many of us would be happy with a BEV, but as long as folks like me are around, that does not mean most.

 

[NW-Bound]

Not a Tesla owner, but looking at the details out of curiosity, I found that the charge of $99/year is quite good, compared to the outrageous charge that GM was trying to sell me for my 2020 car.

See here: https://www.tesla.com/support/connectivity.

Basically, Standard Connectivity gives you the map and software update over the air. Premium Connectivity gives you additional features such as music, video, Internet browsing, etc...

Some cars get Standard Connectivity for life. Some cars get Premium Connectivity for life.

Some get Standard for 8 years. What happens after 8 years? Some older cars cannot support Premium (hardware too old?). And there's no mention of subscription for Standard after 8 years.

Does it mean some cars are not expected to be in use after 8 years, and no longer supported?

 

[Old Microbiologist]

I have a Mercedes EQS which is similarly connected but comes with most software options included for 3 years. The one I find I would buy costs $2,000 extra which is only for 3 years and is the 10-degree rear wheel turning radius. When my 3 years are up I have to decide what options I want to pay for and most I find I don't use so actually not a big deal. However, watching what BMW has done (only in some markets) is a harbinger of things to come.

However, rest assured things will improve. The Chinese manufacturers are not doing these things and instead are tossing in free extras. They are hitting Europe this year and as is typical in capitalism competition will weed out the greedy. I fear Mercedes, Porsche, Audi, VW, and BMW are headed for bankruptcy if they don't change their business models. The Chinese will simply outsell them and outcompete them with better products and services that are also a lot cheaper.

I expect things to define within the next 3 years especially given the suicidal political processes in Germany (actually all the EU except Hungary) with regards to the Russian sanctions which in effect are de-industrializing the countries. My point is a lot of things are in a state of flux. Gasoline and diesel are already rationed and this will get worse. An electric car makes sense in this political climate but only if there is electricity to be had. I plan to add a smallish solar system to recharge the car at home as our electric rates are supposedly going up 500% this month. I won't know the impact until I get our next bill. It is a sliding scale and the rate depends on the amount consumed. Our typical bill I estimate it will go up 500% which means our electricity will cost 50 cents a kwh rather than 10 cents now which is still cheaper than diesel at market prices. Here in Europe, it is roughly $12 a gallon. Hungary has capped the price at 388 HUF which is about 90 cents a liter so a lot less than the rest of Europe. The EU Commission is extremely upset about it so I expect market prices to come soon here as well. But the relatively cheap rates for us are because the dollar is too strong so I anticipate a devaluation of the dollar by at least 50% sometime in the coming year. I have experienced this twice before in 1973 and again in 1984 when living in Germany (serving in the military) and it wasn't pretty and the US govt didn't have any idea of a cost of living allowance so rents, food, etc. all doubled. I have a sense this is coming again. On top of that, we have massive inflation. I am seeing more than 100% on all items coming into Hungary from the EU. Produce, meat, etc. made inside Hungary have increased but relatively low at roughly 35%. Interestingly, alcohol and cigarettes haven't gone up at all.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

braumeister - I was worried about the re-charging issues as well. The EQS we purchased has a large 108kwh battery and an aerodynamic coefficient of 0.2. It is silent and extremely comfortable. It doesn't have insane power or speeds but had an advertised 740 km (440 mile) range which is more or less real. I am averaging 19.2 kWh/100km so in reality, it is 560 km (337 miles) driving at 90 mph in 100+ degree heat with the AC running full blast. Recharging at home has been costing us roughly 10 cents per kWh so a lot less expensive. On the road, it is 85 cents a kWh (typically but it is different in every country) outside Hungary where we live and 21 cents/kWh inside Hungary on the fast chargers. The re-charge rate depends on the state of charge in the battery but typically we get anywhere from 200 to 150 kWh/h and I tend to draw down to 20% charge and recharge back to 80% depending on where I want to end up. I get free charging for the first year so I am leaning on recharging away from home until that ends. I find a bathroom break and cup of coffee times out perfectly. As we are old and I have the typical old man bladder these breaks would happen anyway. I have had to drive back and forth to Budapest a lot recently so am getting a solid feel for what the car will give us. My daughter is coming to Europe in October and we will be traveling to Italy (picking them up in Venice), down the Amalfi coast, etc., and back. This will give me a real test of the actual issues of re-charging while traveling outside of Hungary. I suppose the real issue is how to charge when I get to our hotels or B&B's and have to use AC charging which for the Mercedes is 11 kw/h (if they have a three-phase outlet) if it is single phase Schucko plug then the rate is 2 kw/h. The biggest issue I have found is parking this monstrous car in Europe. It is an S class so huge but also has S class comfort. It also weighs 2,500 kg. It is a beast.

 

[Zathras]

Not a Tesla owner, but looking at the details out of curiosity, I found that the charge of $99/year is quite good, compared to the outrageous charge that GM was trying to sell me for my 2020 car.

See here: https://www.tesla.com/support/connectivity.

Basically, Standard Connectivity gives you the map and software update over the air. ...

I can see how you got that impression as the info about OTA updates is in a poor place.

All cars, regardless of connectivity, get OTA updates. From your link...

Will vehicles with Standard Connectivity still receive over-the-air software updates?
Yes. All vehicles have access to over-the-air software updates.

(bold added by me).

The first sentence, "Yes." answers the question. The next qualifies it further stating "All vehicles...".

What happens after 8 years? Some older cars cannot support Premium (hardware too old?). And there's no mention of subscription for Standard after 8 years.

They answer that on the page you linked, furth down the page.

What are the connectivity features that may be limited after Standard Connectivity expires?
Without Standard Connectivity, access to some connectivity features, including those that use cellular data or third-party licenses, may be changed or removed. These Standard Connectivity features that may change currently include maps, navigation, voice commands and more.

The "and more" at the end is an awful way to end that paragraph. I can understand future changes being difficult to nail down, but the current list should be spelled out clearly.

As for the cost, Tesla probably figures they have a few years to figure that out. To most (not all), planning for a minor cost 8 years in the future is not high on the list of priorities. I would guess it will be less than Premium, but I don't know.

Does it mean some cars are not expected to be in use after 8 years, and no longer supported?

No, and I don't know why anyone would go to that far of a stretch.
Tesla, many times, has talked about how long they plan their cars to last. And it is much longer than 8 years.