The Electric Vehicle Thread

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The reality is that no passenger vehicle should be paying any road tax.

Damage to the road is caused by the weight of commercial vehicles, from a box trucks up through a tractor-trailer.

All those should pay based on the annual change in their odometer.

Damage to the road is also caused by nature (freeze/thaw damage, mainly), so everyone has to pay. Gas taxes should be shifted to state and local taxes, IMO. Or something like ad valorem on yearly registration, which isn't fair either but what is?

I agree that trucks should be surcharged based on miles if this happens.
 
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I see that Tesla and Ford owners will now have a chance to get chummy with each other while waiting to charge their cars.
 
I see that Tesla and Ford owners will now have a chance to get chummy with each other while waiting to charge their cars.

Needed a reference!
Tesla and Ford announced a partnership to onboard the latter’s electric vehicles on the former’s Supercharger network. Ford will add the Tesla plug, now known as the North American Charging Standard (NACS), to its electric vehicles.
https://electrek.co/2023/05/25/ford-will-add-tesla-plug-to-its-electric-vehicles-in-surprising-move/
 
This is huge news. Perhaps one of the biggest deals in the world of EVs. This really increases the chances that NACS becomes the standard connector in North America. Now that one of the largest manufacturers adopted it and instantly gaining access to a huge, dependable charging network, everyone else will be at a disadvantage until they do the same. Tesla will be in a strong position and it will incentivize the continued expansion and investment into the Supercharger network.
 
This is huge news. Perhaps one of the biggest deals in the world of EVs. This really increases the chances that NACS becomes the standard connector in North America. Now that one of the largest manufacturers adopted it and instantly gaining access to a huge, dependable charging network, everyone else will be at a disadvantage until they do the same. Tesla will be in a strong position and it will incentivize the continued expansion and investment into the Supercharger network.

Yeah, I think there needs to be one standard for charging going forward. And it might as well be the tried and true "best" so far. YMMV
 
Yeah, I think there needs to be one standard for charging going forward. And it might as well be the tried and true "best" so far. YMMV



That would help.

One of Mr. Musk’s smartest moves was to include the Tesla charging network in his marketing plans for the car.
 
One of Mr. Musk’s smartest moves was to include the Tesla charging network in his marketing plans for the car.
Of course, they understood right away charging infrastructure was critical to the sales of their EVs, something other EV makers have dragged their feet on. And since Tesla also builds power systems, it dovetails right in with their expertise.
 
VW strategy in the USA... Dig up an old brand

Ja, "das Auto" und "Farfegnugen" sind nicht mehr!

In plain English, VW is trying a new strategy in the USA: go to the emotions by using an old brand beloved by many, especially in red states, "Scout." No more trying to be European by reusing world marketing themes like "das Auto" or "Farfegnugen."

The carmaker is planning to launch more than two dozen electric models in the U.S. across its stable of brands, but executives hope that Scout can create the buzz they need to challenge General Motors and Ford on their home ground.

“Made in America by Americans, an American brand is a powerful thing, and we’re excited about it,” Scout Chief Executive Officer Scott Keogh told The Wall Street Journal this year after closing the deal to locate Scout’s first manufacturing plant in South Carolina.

Free WSJ story link: https://www.wsj.com/articles/volksw...gnaam1a7z7o&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
 
Ja, "das Auto" und "Farfegnugen" sind nicht mehr!

In plain English, VW is trying a new strategy in the USA: go to the emotions by using an old brand beloved by many, especially in red states, "Scout." No more trying to be European by reusing world marketing themes like "das Auto" or "Farfegnugen."



Free WSJ story link: https://www.wsj.com/articles/volksw...gnaam1a7z7o&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Yeah, VW used to have some cool commercials. Let's hope their EVs are as good as the commercials. Thanks for posting.
 
The thing many people don't realize is that the ONLY advantage the ICE has over EV in some limited use-cases (road-tripping convenience) has nothing to do with the vehicle itself -- it's the existence of a dense network of gas stations. But those can and will go away rapidly when they don't make enough profit to sustain themselves. I've made this argument before: when it comes time to replace those expensive underground tanks, they will need to see the trend in profits be stable enough to justify the cost.
It took about 20 years to replace steel underground fuel tanks with the leak-monitored double-wall, usually fiberglass tanks used today after regulations were enacted in the mid-1980s.

With the monitoring systems, I suspect the newer tanks will remain in service for a fairly long time, but not indefinitely.
 
Yeah, VW used to have some cool commercials. Let's hope their EVs are as good as the commercials. Thanks for posting.

I think the consumer should almost always buy the vehicle that best fits them (either their needs, or their desires), but I make a rare exception for VW group vehicles after diesel-gate.

If the world were even remotely fair or just, VW should've been fined appropriately and gone bankrupt for blatant disregard of human life and actively deceiving authorities for years. Their executives should've been prosecuted and jailed too. Instead, they were rewarded. Ugh. :mad:


It took about 20 years to replace steel underground fuel tanks with the leak-monitored double-wall, usually fiberglass tanks used today after regulations were enacted in the mid-1980s.

With the monitoring systems, I suspect the newer tanks will remain in service for a fairly long time, but not indefinitely.

Well, if you're right, the mid-1980's was 40 years ago. Even the ones that took 20 years to replace would have tanks that are 20 years old. As far as I know, the double-walled tanks are warranted for 30 years. That means this replacement cycle is about to start now.

Selling gas is an extremely slim-margin business. Most profit is from non-fuel products (convenience products, food, etc.) while most of the costs are related to gasoline fuel (environmental impact studies, annual inspections, tank replacements, etc).

To make it worthwhile to continue to sell gasoline, the owner would have to believe that selling gasoline is profitable enough to invest in another 30-40 years for a tanks. If I were in their shoes, I would not be so confident... especially in less-dense areas or less-than-perfect locations.

Enough stations need to stop selling fuel to allow the remaining stations to be profitable. That will reduce the convenience of the gasoline vehicle which will further drive the EV adoption... and this will continue until an "EV" is just a "car."

The start of this is already happening in California and in the Bay Area. I went to a Memorial Weekend BBQ at a friends house today, and of the 9 vehicles in the driveway, 7 were electric, 1 was hybrid, and 1 was gasoline. Of the 7 electric, 6 were Tesla vehicles. Of the 6 Tesla vehicles, there was 1 Model X (mine), 1 Model 3, and 4 Model Y's. 10 years ago, I would drive my Tesla to any random parking lot and people would come up to us and ask us questions. Today, it's totally normal to be surrounded by at least 3 Teslas when you are waiting for a green light at a random intersection.
 
If the world were even remotely fair or just, VW should've been fined appropriately and gone bankrupt for blatant disregard of human life and actively deceiving authorities for years. Their executives should've been prosecuted and jailed too. Instead, they were rewarded. Ugh. :mad:

Rather than destroying an otherwise good/innovative company, I'd have rather seen more personal jail time to all who had a hand in Dieselgate. I say "Don't throw out the baby with the bath water" but YMMV.
 
…..Today, it's totally normal to be surrounded by at least 3 Teslas when you are waiting for a green light at a random intersection.
Not in my neighborhood. I haven’t seen a Tesla in months. I suppose they are in the cities, but not in flow over country.
 
Not in my neighborhood. I haven’t seen a Tesla in months. I suppose they are in the cities, but not in flow over country.

I agree. Based on my very unscientific review of traffic around here, I would guess there are no more than 20-30 Teslas in my zip code. And I'm in the most affluent zip code in the county.
 
Selling gas is an extremely slim-margin business. Most profit is from non-fuel products (convenience products, food, etc.) while most of the costs are related to gasoline fuel (environmental impact studies, annual inspections, tank replacements, etc).

To make it worthwhile to continue to sell gasoline, the owner would have to believe that selling gasoline is profitable enough to invest in another 30-40 years for a tanks. If I were in their shoes, I would not be so confident... especially in less-dense areas or less-than-perfect locations.

Enough stations need to stop selling fuel to allow the remaining stations to be profitable. That will reduce the convenience of the gasoline vehicle which will further drive the EV adoption... and this will continue until an "EV" is just a "car."

The start of this is already happening in California and in the Bay Area. I went to a Memorial Weekend BBQ at a friends house today, and of the 9 vehicles in the driveway, 7 were electric, 1 was hybrid, and 1 was gasoline. Of the 7 electric, 6 were Tesla vehicles. Of the 6 Tesla vehicles, there was 1 Model X (mine), 1 Model 3, and 4 Model Y's. 10 years ago, I would drive my Tesla to any random parking lot and people would come up to us and ask us questions. Today, it's totally normal to be surrounded by at least 3 Teslas when you are waiting for a green light at a random intersection.

It's going to be a long time until gasoline goes away given the current order of magnitude price difference between battery packs for hybrids & the much larger capacity ones required for pure EVs.

Though I can certainly see the hybridization of nearly all future ICE powertrains.
 
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Today, it's totally normal to be surrounded by at least 3 Teslas when you are waiting for a green light at a random intersection.

Everyone understands that EVs are becoming more popular.
Everyone also understands that things are different in California.
There is no need to keep beating that drum.
 
I agree. Based on my very unscientific review of traffic around here, I would guess there are no more than 20-30 Teslas in my zip code. And I'm in the most affluent zip code in the county.

Not in my neighborhood. I haven’t seen a Tesla in months. I suppose they are in the cities, but not in flow over country.

That's gotta be why VW is resurrecting the Scout brand. The old International Harvester brand. Flyover favorites.

Teslas are now a dime a dozen around here in the Research Triangle Park area. Make sense as they are nerd favorites.
 
Rather than destroying an otherwise good/innovative company, I'd have rather seen more personal jail time to all who had a hand in Dieselgate. I say "Don't throw out the baby with the bath water" but YMMV.

I do think there should be punitive consequences to deter copy-cats (and there were copy-cats in BMW and Mercedes), but even without a punitive component, the cost to mitigate and reverse even a tiny fraction of the environmental and health damage on a global level is more than enough to bankrupt them several times over. These highly-polluting vehicles are STILL operating all over the world. Recalls, repairs, fines, and enforcement of these actions have been laughable. Part of this is because stricter enforcement would inconvenience the consumers who purchased them, and there would need to be enough resources to compensate them, which we don't have without extracting/demanding more from VW, which governments have seemingly refused to do so.

The health consequences are still with us. The environmental impacts are still with us. And looking at the market cap of VW Group, basically, they got off 100% scot-free. And they were then rewarded with this forced "re-inventing" of their line-up to include EVs... Without that, they would probably be where Toyota is today with their crappy EV position or worse.
 
Everyone understands that EVs are becoming more popular.
Everyone also understands that things are different in California.
There is no need to keep beating that drum.

Things are not simply "different" in California. For most trends, California is simply a leading indicator for the rest of the country. And I'm not "beating that drum" for the sake of beating that drum. It was directly relevant to the the trend that was being discussed -- my assertion that gas stations will rapidly disappear, EV adoption will contribute to it, and gasoline vehicles have nearly no inherent advantages over EVs and that their sole major advantage, quick refueling during road trips, is an infrastructure advantage that can & will go away.
 
Not in my neighborhood. I haven’t seen a Tesla in months. I suppose they are in the cities, but not in flow over country.

There are a fair amount of EVs (all brands) in my area, and a good amount of hybrids. But, pure ICE cars are still the great majority even among newer automobiles.

The link below compares EV registrations by state, as of 12/31/2021. Note that CA had nearly 40% of the registered EVs at that time. Since then that percentage has probably gone down a bit as EVs catch on in other states.

https://electrek.co/2022/08/24/current-ev-registrations-in-the-us-how-does-your-state-stack-up/


To determine the number of EV registrations in the US, we consulted data from the Alternative Fuels Data Center (AFDC) through the US Department of Energy website.

The data was last updated in June of 2022 and represented all registered EVs in the US as of December 31st, 2021. For that reason, we are comparing our data from 2020 registrations to 2021. In 2023, we will update this list again and compare YOY growth with 2022 registrations.

Note that this data includes BEVs only and does not account for any hybrids or PHEVs.
 
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It's going to be a long time until gasoline goes away given the current order of magnitude price difference between battery packs for hybrids & the much larger capacity ones required for pure EVs.

Though I can certainly see the hybridization of nearly all future ICE powertrains.

I can see how highly-efficient hybrid vehicles could be seen as competitive with BEV, but the price of a Prius Prime is $32.4k, whereas a Bolt is $27.5k, Leaf is $28k, Kona is $33.6k, ID.4 is $39k, and a better equipped, roomier, extremely-higher performance Model 3 is $40.2k (all before fed and local incentives). I can't see why people would choose a hybrid given there aren't that many advantages of the hybrid vehicle over a simple gasoline vehicle while there are downsides of carrying two drivetrains where neither of them are very good (small, underpowered ICE combined with a too-small HV battery electric drivetrain).

However, some market-manipulating policies are going to affect the otherwise "natural" trends in the short-term: First, stricter fleet-level emissions standards have forced manufacturers to offer hybrid drivetrains on most of their models to boost their fleet MPG numbers. Many consumers who would've otherwise bought just a regular gasoline vehicle would get a hybrid vehicle instead. Government incentives for plug-in vehicles offer huge incentives for vehicles that have tiny batteries. The amount of the incentives far outweigh the cost of adding the hybrid components, so this is effectively giving away money while slowing down the adoption of full EVs. I believe we've discussed this earlier in this thread.

We'll see...
 
These highly-polluting vehicles are STILL operating all over the world. Recalls, repairs, fines, and enforcement of these actions have been laughable.

I've seen this sticker a few times:

genuine-high-emissions-volkswagen.jpg
 
It's going to be a long time until gasoline goes away given the current order of magnitude price difference between battery packs for hybrids & the much larger capacity ones required for pure EVs.

Though I can certainly see the hybridization of nearly all future ICE powertrains.
Long time?

The cost of the vehicle is the determining factor, not the price of the battery pack alone. There are a couple Model 3 and Y models that are at or below the average cost of a new car last year even without the tax credit. And Tesla has a lower cost model in development to be built in Mexico.

The Model Y was the best selling car in the world in the first quarter 2023 also.

And most legacy automakers seem to be hurriedly trying to have EVs to offer now, not new hybrids.

https://insideevs.com/news/654106/tesla-model3-price-less-than-average-new-car-transaction/

https://electrek.co/2023/05/25/tesla-model-y-is-now-the-worlds-best-selling-car-first-ev-to-do-so/
 
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The gas tax should be abolished and a mileage & weight class tax enacted for all cars. That would be the equitable way to do it.
It is also incredibly simple to do and would save money.

To a degree, there's already a weight class tax, although not on fuel/road usage. In Maryland, for instance, if a passenger car has a shipping weight below 3700 lb, the registration is less than if it's over 3700. There used to be a loophole for anything classified as a truck, but these days I think most SUVs are classified as "multi-purpose vehicles." Actual "true" trucks, like a pickup truck, still get a bit of a break on the registration, though.

However, I'd argue that when the roads are built for fully-loaded tractor trailers and such, whether a 2000 lb Chevette or a 5000 lb Imperial goes over that stretch of road, it's irrelevant.

And in some cases, some smaller cars might do more damage than you think. It's not just the weight of a vehicle, but how much it's spread out. And weight distribution. For example if a 3000 lb Prius had a 61/39% weight distribution, and my 4000 lb '79 New Yorker has a 55/45%, that would mean the Prius is putting around 1830 lb of pressure on its front tires. My New Yorker is putting around 2200 lb, around 370 lb more. Or 185 lb per tire up front.

But wait, there's more. A Prius is probably riding on hard, skinny tires, like a 195 series, in the interests of less drag and better economy. My New Yorker is sitting on 225 series tires that aren't brick-hard. that extra 185 lb per front tire is spread out a bit more. And, because it's a softer tire, and most likely not inflated as high, it doesn't hit the road as hard.

The vast majority of vehicles used for personal transportation (cars, minivans, crossovers, SUVs, and half-ton pickups) probably weigh between 2500-6000 lb. To TRULY make things equitable, you'd have to come up with a formula that takes into account tire size, pressure, overall weight, how much of a load you typically carry (put four good sized people in a Prius vs just me in my New Yorker, and they might weight about the same), and how that weight is distributed across the road surface, and so on.

But again, in the overall scheme of things, with lighter vehicles these weight differences are irrelevant. Even in neighborhood streets. At some point during the week, a school bus, trash truck, UPS truck, etc probably goes past your house, and any of them are going to far outweigh the typical passenger vehicle.
 
Model Y was the best selling car in the world in Q1 of 2023.

Not just the best-selling EV but all models of cars.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...le-to-be-the-worlds-best-selling-car-24b10410


Kind of surprising but Tesla was discounting aggressively so some people might have gone YOLO and decided to pay more for the Y than the 3 that they might have been looking at.

I wouldn't think it's sustainable though.

Because it's higher priced than other EVs and ICEs and larger. So it would have appeal in places like the US, Canada, Australia.

But maybe not so much in Asia or Europe.

I don't know how it's done in China, probably okay but they have a lot of congested cities too so you'd think a larger car would be more of a liability to drive and park in such places.

Supposedly SUVs aren't as popular outside of large countries like the US with a lot of suburbs and less dense roads.
 
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