Thoughts on TESLA

[eroscott]

...
When Consumer Reports first tested the Model 3 they rated it unacceptable because the braking distance was too long. Elon tweeted that a software update to fix it would be out shortly, and within a few days they sent an update out that fixed the problem. Consumer Reports then retested the car and confirmed the brakes were now working fine. What other car company could have done this? Any other manufacturer would have needed to initiate a major recall, which would have cost millions of dollars and wasted everyone’s time with additional service visits. That is what makes Tesla so impressive.

There was a lot more to that story but just to be clear it was not just the fact that Tesla had Over-The-Air/OTA capability which allowed it to be "tuned" *BUT* that they had hardware designs that allowed software to talk to some of the hardware that is not normally the case. Often it is built into the firmware on the device. ie. Chevrolet Bolt had wiper motor issues in Canada and they had to replace the motors since the software involved was in the 3rd party/supplier motor and they didn't have software communication access within the car (recall notices described this). My Volt has needed software/firmware flashed. I have to take it to the dealer. They either hardwire a cable to it or download software to a USB depending.

Several videos and stories on the hardware and software aspects of this scenario that help describe the solution. Similarly, software tuning of various aspects have allowed for advanced 'Track Mode' features to be OTA added to the Model 3s.

In retesting after the software update was downloaded, the Model 3 sedan stopped in 133 feet from 60 miles per hour, an improvement of 19 feet. Jake Fisher, director of auto testing at Consumer Reports, described the improvement as unprecedented.

“I’ve been at CR for 19 years and tested more than 1,000 cars, and I’ve never seen a car that could improve its track performance with an over-the-air update,” he said in a statement.

 

[Texas Proud]

Man, a lot of the fans are really hitting ERD50 hard... even though I do not think he deserves it....


He points out the flaws in logic and numbers that many people are putting down as facts with no support... he challenges your assertions... yet many, if not most, do not come back with actual numbers but general sayings of this or that...


And for the people who say they just want a car to go from A to B, I would challenge that a Model S does not qualify... a Honda Civic or even an Accord is going to be cheaper (from everything I have seen)...


Just checked so I could put some number behind it... the 5 year total cost to operate a Civic was about $34K total with all fees and depreciation at 15K miles per year....


A 5 year old Tesla S can be bought for between $30K and $40K... so I would say depreciation alone is in the $50K range or more....... plus all the electricity, insurance, state fees etc. etc.... maybe another $10K... but insurance might be more for this car....

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Man, a lot of the fans are really hitting ERD50 hard... even though I do not think he deserves it....


He points out the flaws in logic and numbers that many people are putting down as facts with no support... he challenges your assertions... yet many, if not most, do not come back with actual numbers but general sayings of this or that...


And for the people who say they just want a car to go from A to B, I would challenge that a Model S does not qualify... a Honda Civic or even an Accord is going to be cheaper (from everything I have seen)...


Just checked so I could put some number behind it... the 5 year total cost to operate a Civic was about $34K total with all fees and depreciation at 15K miles per year....


A 5 year old Tesla S can be bought for between $30K and $40K... so I would say depreciation alone is in the $50K range or more....... plus all the electricity, insurance, state fees etc. etc.... maybe another $10K... but insurance might be more for this car....

I bought a brand new Tesla for 49k. - 10,450 rebate/credits. 38,550 is final price. My electric bill was 38.54 last month. Thats with 2 EV's.

I agree civics are good reliable cars. One downside is that they are stolen right and left, at least where I live. Tesla has the highest stolen vehicle recovery rate.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Im curious. Is there any actual tesla owners that wouldnt buy another? You Tesla owners know what im talking about. I own two and cant see myself not buying another. These people who once rode in one or know someone who has one has no idea.

My model s now has 90,000 miles and i have put nothing into this car other than a set of tires

Who owns one and is going back to a gas car??

I have had one for 10 months and another for 6. I have driven one friends BMW ( I have owned 3) and another's lexus in the last 6 months. Almost got hit each time having to readjust to the delay from pressing accelerator to the car moving.

Gradually more forum members will buy EV's, but we know some that won't.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I’ve had the same problems with my Model 3. The screen has locked up once or twice and required a reboot. And a few times the software just didn’t do what it was supposed to do...again fixed by a reboot. DH was getting very frustrated with the car during the first week because of these issues.

Unfortunately there is no way to experience all of this additional technology in a car without experiencing a few bugs. I’m comfortable with the fact that the car is upgradeable through software and that eventually Tesla will fix all of these bugs.

I still remember buying my 2007 Lexus LS460 and paying for the self parking feature. It was supposed to be able to parallel park by itself. It was a complete joke. I might have gotten it to work once in the three years I leased the car. But because Lexus chose not to make their software upgradeable, I was permanently stuck with a non-working feature that I paid for. Tesla figured out how to use upgradeable software rather than “firmware” that is fixed in functionality for the life of the vehicle. That’s why they have been so successful with their customers in spite of the initial bugs.

When Consumer Reports first tested the Model 3 they rated it unacceptable because the braking distance was too long. Elon tweeted that a software update to fix it would be out shortly, and within a few days they sent an update out that fixed the problem. Consumer Reports then retested the car and confirmed the brakes were now working fine. What other car company could have done this? Any other manufacturer would have needed to initiate a major recall, which would have cost millions of dollars and wasted everyone’s time with additional service visits. That is what makes Tesla so impressive.

I have had to hit the brakes hard 3 times in my 3. Stops on a dime. I know that wasn't your point, just saying.

Also I have never had to reboot my 3. My X twice in 10 months.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I was wondering if it has a fingerprint reader to authenticate and start the car? Or is there a key?

I really don't know what the starting procedure is for the Tesla's.

Good to hear they are easily recoverable and not quickly stripped for parts. That's a big business in south Texas as parts go south to Mexico and South America quickly.

Ready answered this, but I'll add a bit. Model 3 uses both your smartphone and a card. The card fits in your wallet. Using either method eliminates carrying a key fob. One less thing to carry around. You can order a key fob for a princely sum if one wants. If you lose both of the cards, replacements cost $5.

Model S and X's use a key fob much like a hot wheel in size. You press drivers door, trunk...whatever, and it opens.

 

[bobandsherry]

Ready answered this, but I'll add a bit. Model 3 uses both your smartphone and a card. The card fits in your wallet. Using either method eliminates carrying a key fob. One less thing to carry around. You can order a key fob for a princely sum if one wants. If you lose both of the cards, replacements cost $5.



Model S and X's use a key fob much like a hot wheel in size. You press drivers door, trunk...whatever, and it opens.

So with that technology, how are the Tesla's being stolen?

 

[eroscott]

So with that technology, how are the Tesla's being stolen?

Just follow this link and you can read some scenarios.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+are+the+Tesla%27s+being+stolen

Some I've address/given_clues to above:

I believe there are a couple of options related to a user entering a PIN now that came via Over-The-Air/OTA. An additional PIN input requirement is something akin to 2FA (secondary factor auth).

a) Pin to drive in case you are worried about your FOB or it (electronic code) being compromised

b) Pin to disable remote access within car menus -- ie. theif gets your car and tries to disable remote access/watching.

 

[JoeWras]

It is sad that software industry has set a bad precedent, and conditioned customers to accept buggy products as a fact of life. It does not have to be that way.

Truly sad. One reason I'm out of the business.

Same can be said about voice communications. For 100 years, it was all about getting clearer. Then one day, nobody cared and was more than happy to listen to people talk under water.

We need to demand that automobiles DO NOT go this route. So much good happened in the 70s through 90s when competition awoke the lazy.

 

[Chuckanut]

My model s now has 90,000 miles and i have put nothing into this car other than a set of tires

I agree with you that virtually every Tesla owner I know loves the car and is very, very glad he/she bought it. None have said they are sorry they bought it. Not a one.

OTOH, my old Camry (non hybrid version) went well over 120,000 miles before it needed its first repair. In that time all I replaced were tires and brakes. Most modern cars are much more reliable than they used to be. 100,000 miles? No big deal today. Wake me when it hits 250,000 and I'll buy the beers.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I agree with you that virtually every Tesla owner I know loves the car and is very, very glad he/she bought it. None have said they are sorry they bought it. Not a one.

OTOH, my old Camry (non hybrid version) went well over 120,000 miles before it needed its first repair. In that time all I replaced were tires and brakes. Most modern cars are much more reliable than they used to be. 100,000 miles? No big deal today. Wake me when it hits 250,000 and I'll buy the beers.

All true Chuckanut. Lots of good options exist.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

So with that technology, how are the Tesla's being stolen?

No matter whether its new technology or old, thieves are going to be thieves.

The difference so far is for now at least Tesla's have their good record of recovery.

 

[Breedlove]

I guess my question is if my Toyota Camry breaks down in BFE , there are parts and people available to repair it . Nothing against Electric cars but I see the battery technology seems to have hit a brick wall and now they must find new ways for things to use less juice so you can drive further. I kind of like the Hyundai/ Kia program Batteries for life.

 

[NW-Bound]

... they must find new ways for things to use less juice so you can drive further...

That is not going to happen. The electric motor is already 85% to 90% efficient. The power that is consumed once the car reaches cruising speed is all to overcome aerodynamic drag. And Tesla cars already have a fairly low drag coefficient. Even the Prius is quite aerodynamic despite its clunky look.

To reduce aerodrag further, you need to drive a car like this. Or drive slower. Eventually, perhaps we will see the return of the 55mph speed limit on freeways.

PS. Some numbers from the Web about Cd (drag coefficient) of various cars.

2013 Mercedes-Benz CLA BlueEfficiency – 0.22 Cd.
2017 BMW 5 Series EfficientDynamics Edition – 0.22 Cd
2017 Tesla Model 3 – 0.23 Cd
2018 Audi A4 2.0 TDI Ultra – 0.23 Cd
2016 Mercedes-Benz E-Class Saloon – 0.23 Cd
2016 Tesla Model S – 0.24 Cd
2016 Toyota Prius – 0.24 Cd

The Cd of the Tokai Challenger pictured above is 0.11. But the frontal area of the Tokai is also a lot less than that of a normal car. Drag force is proportional to Cd times frontal area. So, two cars with the same Cd, the one with a larger frontal area has more drag.

 

[Midpack]

I agree with you that virtually every Tesla owner I know loves the car and is very, very glad he/she bought it. None have said they are sorry they bought it. Not a one.

OTOH, my old Camry (non hybrid version) went well over 120,000 miles before it needed its first repair. In that time all I replaced were tires and brakes. Most modern cars are much more reliable than they used to be. 100,000 miles? No big deal today. Wake me when it hits 250,000 and I'll buy the beers.

And every legitimate review, actual owners and professional car reviewers, I've seen has been positive on balance if not overwhelmingly so. Even the Model X which seems to have been the most troublesome, and certainly the Model S and Model 3.

 

[oneill225]

Ford Finally Getting into the Game

Ford appears to finally be getting serious about electric. Looks like they are shooting for a 2022 electric F-Series truck:

https://electrek.co/2019/01/16/ford-all-electric-f150-pickup-truck/

I think it helps Tesla in the short-term when other manufacturers start promoting EVs as the future. It also confirms that Tesla is still at least a year or two ahead of any serious competition.

 

[Ronstar]

I don’t see Tesla’s ‘Big Truck’ to be serious competition to the F150. Although Tesla cars are selling, I don’t see much of a market for the Big Truck. Now maybe if Tesla was introducing a pickup sized truck, I’d be interested. Until then I’ll stick to an F150.

 

[Midpack]

I don’t see Tesla’s ‘Big Truck’ to be serious competition to the F150. Although Tesla cars are selling, I don’t see much of a market for the Big Truck. Now maybe if Tesla was introducing a pickup sized truck, I’d be interested. Until then I’ll stick to an F150.

I know Tesla has the Model X and the Model Y coming, but it is interesting to see Tesla banking on sedans while the industry is almost wholesale dumping sedans for pickups, SUV’s and crossovers. Though maybe luxury/premium “car” buyers, where Tesla has been mostly, still buy more sedans than the other 90% of buyers? It’ll be very interesting to see what the auto industry looks like in 10 years...

 

[Lakewood90712]

Cost Cutting at Tesla- end of referral

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/17/elon-musk-tesla-to-end-customer-referral-program-on-feb-1.html

Referral incentive will stop on Feb 1st

 

[oneill225]

I don’t see Tesla’s ‘Big Truck’ to be serious competition to the F150. Although Tesla cars are selling, I don’t see much of a market for the Big Truck. Now maybe if Tesla was introducing a pickup sized truck, I’d be interested. Until then I’ll stick to an F150.

Tesla has not introduced any definitive plans for a pick-up truck (like the F150), only that they expect to sell one in the future. The next step for Tesla in cars will be the Model Y SUV (also not revealed, but coming soon). It will be a smaller SUV based on the Model 3 design.

The Ford story is important because Ford has been a laggard in the EV transition. They still may be too late, but we will see if they are serious over the next couple of years.

 

[ERD50]

... The Ford story is important because Ford has been a laggard in the EV transition. They still may be too late, but we will see if they are serious over the next couple of years.

There are some pros/cons to being "late". Ford still has all their EV credits, right? Assuming the rules stay as they are, that could work in their favor.

By waiting for battery prices to come down, and observing what's going on in the market, they are in a better position to produce a lower-mid price car where the $7,500 is a very big deal. And assuming that Ford has the experience to ramp up a new model faster than start-up Tesla, that means that once they hit the 200,000 unit point, they could be selling high volumes during the 6 months that buyers still get the $3,750 credit (again, still a big deal on a low-mid priced EV), and another 6 months of a still substantial $1,875.

Of course, that may not be Ford's plan. And maybe Ford doesn't end up producing an EV that people want all that much. Or they just squander the opportunity in some other way.

But being late isn't all negative for Ford.


-ERD50

 

[oneill225]

There are some pros/cons to being "late". Ford still has all their EV credits, right? Assuming the rules stay as they are, that could work in their favor.
By waiting for battery prices to come down, and observing what's going on in the market, they are in a better position to produce a lower-mid price car where the $7,500 is a very big deal. And assuming that Ford has the experience to ramp up a new model faster than start-up Tesla, that means that once they hit the 200,000 unit point, they could be selling high volumes during the 6 months that buyers still get the $3,750 credit (again, still a big deal on a low-mid priced EV), and another 6 months of a still substantial $1,875
But being late isn't all negative for Ford.-ERD50

They also risk that the EV credits will be gone or greatly reduced in three years. The credits will not be around forever. Ford needs to pull it together; they have gotten fat, dumb, and lazy in their reliance on trucks. Reminds me of the 80s when the Japanese ate the lunch of American car makers.

 

[Ready]

GM has decided to make Cadillac their main platform for their next generation of EV cars. Unfortunately, they blew through their 200,000 in credits with their Chevrolet Volt/Bolt cars, so by the time Cadillac comes out with a serious EV competitor they will have completely used up their tax credits.

It’s ironic that the two companies that pushed for early EV adoption (Tesla and GM), will now be the only two companies that are ineligible to receive tax credits on future EVs. So we have now created an incentive for the majority of interested buyers to pursue foreign vehicles if they want to take advantage of the credits.

Hopefully Ford will take advantage of this opportunity. We shall see.

 

[aja8888]

But being late isn't all negative for Ford.


-ERD50

Given that all major vehicle manufacturers are budgeting big dollars for EV technology over the next 5 years, and Ford is teaming with VW to build an EV platform at the Chattanooga, TN VW plant, EV technology is in inning 2 or a 9+ inning game.

There's a long way to go and all Tesla did was open the marketing door so far. If anyone thinks Tesla's EV technology is "secret", think again.

 

[oneill225]

Given that all major vehicle manufacturers are budgeting big dollars for EV technology over the next 5 years, and Ford is teaming with VW to build an EV platform at the Chattanooga, TN VW plant, EV technology is in inning 2 or a 9+ inning game.
There's a long way to go and all Tesla did was open the marketing door so far. If anyone thinks Tesla's EV technology is "secret", think again.

It is early, no doubt, but I think you would fire a baseball manager if he told his team to start trying in the 3rd or 4th inning.