Two Months with an Electric Car

[travelover]

I did.

It seems you either have a reading comprehension problem, or just have some sort of bias about this.

I won't bother with any further attempts at communication with you regarding this, I'll just wait to see if T-Al wishes to reply and explain his 'fun' comment for the benefit of all of us that commented on it.

-ERD50

I recognize that Al doesn't owe you or anyone else a justification for his choice of car or how far he chooses to drive it. He is a smart guy, is having fun and probably has a cell phone and a AAA card.

 

[TromboneAl]

I'm glad you are enjoying your new ride, but you're going to have to explain to me...

The most fun is driving beyond your range--needing to get a charge if you want to make it home.

what makes that 'fun'? Driving an ICE on empty is a little nerve racking, better to have plenty of reserve at all times. And assuming you stay close enough to a gas station to pull into, a refill only takes a few minutes, not hours.

-ERD50

This is "living on the edge" for senior citizens.

Actually, it's not terribly risky, because there are lots of charging stations around here. That is, even if a station is offline, we could make it to another.

Last week, we went to Ferndale and the charger was down. No problem, we went to the Bear River Casino and charged at their free station while we had a fancy lunch, and got $20 of free gambling money (and won $1.34. Yay!).

Perhaps it's just fun to drive further than we thought we could.

Lena went out later yesterday, so our mileage total was 135 miles for the day.

>What is the plan if you run out of juice on the road? Flat bed truck or do they have some kind of portable charger? I'm interested in LEAFs so am interested in your post.

Even though we bought it used, we have three years of free roadside assistance. Run out, and they will come tow you.

When I was pushing the limit, my biggest worry was that they'd tow me home, and the neighbors would think, "Told you so!"

Some tow trucks have chargers in them, though not around here.

One thing to keep in mind Al is that the Leaf battery does not have an active cooling system and relies on air passing over it to cool it. You must be very careful in hot weather to make sure your battery life meter has is left with plenty of buffer to get you to a charging station.

From what I have read, battery degradation is is common with the Leaf due to no active thermal management system. This is one of the reasons way these cars hit the used market frequently and are priced low.

I'm glad you like it, but caution you on the battery issue in hot weather.

It's not an issue here. Typical summer highs are sixty degrees here. Even with the current heat dome, it's 56 now, and I have a fire in the fireplace. Also, it never gets cold.

One guy here has 30,000 miles on his battery (2013?), and it is at 11/12ths of capacity.

How about carrying a generator in the back with a gal of gas, so you can plug in anywhere

It's been done, but it isn't practical.

If getting home depends on the availability of a charging station, what happens if they are all occupied when you arrive? It's not like having to wait 2 minutes while the guy in front fills his gas tank, and it's not like there's another charging station on every corner.

So far, that's only happened once, and we just drove a few blocks to another charger.

As long as the charging station frequency increases faster than the cars, we're good.

The bigger problem are the "ice-holes." People who park their ICE vehicle in a charging spot. Haven't seen that yet.

Also, some EV owners, like me, put a sign on their dashboard that says "You may unplug me at ??:??. My phone # is. xxx-xxx-xxxx.

I had someone call me, and I ended my coffee drinking a bit early so that he could charge.

 

[TromboneAl]

While I am in immense admiration for the OP and dedication to the environment. I cannot for the life of me understand WHY anyone would drive an electric car

For me, it had nothing to do with the environment. I wanted one for the fun of it.

Most of our trips are well within the range.

You can't understand it unless you drive one for a while. It has greater acceleration, by far, than any vehicle I've owned. There's something fun about the quiet power.

Part of it may be simply the improvement in quality/comfort over the Echo.

Sounds a little nerve wracking, having to tailor your trips to a limited amount of charging stations. What if they are busy? And the wait time?

Do you have to swipe a credit card at the charging station, or is it "free"? I can guess who ends up paying for the energy if it's "free".

There really are plenty around. There are two that are on the way home, 7 miles from our house. If I'm getting low, and not experimenting, I can always stop there. Won't take long to add enough to get me home.

There are eight stations around that are free. But [-]Lena reminds me[/-] I have to remind myself, that the ones that charge are only a dollar or two per charge (e.g. $.48 + .18 per kWh).

We have RFID cards that we "tap" on the station to pay. You put $25 in the "bank," and it draws from that. You can also use your smartphone, and you can view the status of your charging. Like this:

But it's certainly not a BMW though. Not even close or nearly as much fun!

I test drove a BMW i3. Fantastic, but the range was only 60 miles, and I didn't want the gas range extender.

-----------------------

Despite that one trip where I intentionally pushed the limits, range anxiety is clearly overblown. We haven't gotten to the point where we ignore the "miles remaining," but it's no longer a concern.

And don't forget the fun of scaring the bejeezus out of pedestrians. The car makes an artificial noise at low speeds, but it's still quiet.

 

[NW-Bound]

How about carrying a generator in the back with a gal of gas, so you can plug in anywhere

If the generator is the common portable Honda generator 2000i at 1.6 kW output, then each hour of charging will get you 6 miles. That's using the 3.9 miles/kWh that T-Al observed with his Leaf.

 

[Clone]

We've got a 2012 Leaf, and really enjoy it.

Additionally, the battery capacity drops substantially in MN winters, so once it gets cold enough I drive it to work occasionally if DH is working at the "far office" that day, as opposed to the "near office" or at home.

I had a co-worker ask me what I thought about the Leaf. I don't know enough to have an opinion.

What do they do for heat in the winter? Or A/C in the summer? That would seem to impact the range considerably.

I can see the appeal in moderate climates and with 'free' recharging stations.

 

[TromboneAl]

I had a co-worker ask me what I thought about the Leaf. I don't know enough to have an opinion.

What do they do for heat in the winter? Or A/C in the summer? That would seem to impact the range considerably.

I can see the appeal in moderate climates and with 'free' recharging stations.

It's true it affects range. It has heated seats. The top models have heated steering wheels. When you turn on the conventional heating, it takes a while to get started.

You can tell it to prepare the cabin to a set temperature at a given time. Thus, it will heat up or cool down while it's charging, using the power from the wall.

While it was still charging yesterday, out in the sun, I turned on the AC.

 

[RobbieB]

I like electric cars but they have too many wheels.

Two wheels is all I need -

Zero to 60 in 3.3 seconds? I think I need one of these for "burger runs" -

 

[Zathras]

I had a co-worker ask me what I thought about the Leaf. I don't know enough to have an opinion.

What do they do for heat in the winter? Or A/C in the summer? That would seem to impact the range considerably.

I can see the appeal in moderate climates and with 'free' recharging stations.

Cold temps will impact your range more that hot temperatures. AC takes less energy than heating.
In addition, air is less dense the warmer it is, which helps, or completely off sets AC.

As for winter, you need to be aware you will loose 15-30% of your range. If that range still fits your needs, it will probably be the best winter car you have ever owned.

I like electric cars but they have too many wheels.

Two wheels is all I need -

Zero to 60 in 3.3 seconds? I think I need one of these for "burger runs" -

Those electric bikes are pretty cool. With all the people reading the paper, playing Pokemon and such, I'll never use a motorcycle on public roads.

 

[Sunset]

In the glorious state of NJ we do not pump gas. Picture this utopian setting. People motor up to the 12 banks of pumps, get out of car, attendant swipes card, you go in for bathroom relief, hoagie, etc. Go back to car and drive off into the Sunset!

https://www.wawa.com/

Amazing.... it's like back to the future. Reminds me of around 1970 , and they would even check the oil too.

 

[Car-Guy]

Excellent thread. It has really helped me with my thinking about electric cars.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

The BMW diesel is a fun car.

Other BMW's, not so much. But I am not the type of person that would buy an electric car. I doubt very much that I would even consider a hybrid given the premium that goes with its price.

I hated BMW's as a young man, but this diesel completely changed my views. To the point I am thinking of buying another one when this one is 3 years old.

 

[Koogie]

I like electric cars but they have too many wheels.

Two wheels is all I need -

Zero to 60 in 3.3 seconds? I think I need one of these for "burger runs" -

I pass a guy every morning on my commute to work that drives a Zero. It's on twisty backroads and you can tell he has a riot on it. Sometimes I stop at a stop sign at the same time he is there and listen to him take off. The acceleration is amazing and all you hear is the hiss of rubber on tarmac and a bit of electric whine.

I looked into them but probably will never get one. I test "sat" one at the motorcycle show and it was pretty sweet and nicely balanced. The price sticker scared off the penny pincher in me though.

 

[Beldar]

Thanks for answering our questions & comments TA, I've learned quite a bit regarding the EV experience.

_B

 

[NW-Bound]

I forgot to mention another performance number regarding carrying your own Honda generator for backup.

For the popular Honda 2000i portable generator, Honda says that at its rated max output of 1.6kW, the fuel consumption is 3.64 hours for 1 gallon.

So, for 1 gallon with the backup generator, you can drive 3.64 hrs/gal x 1.6 kW x 3.9 miles/ kWh = 22.71 miles/gal.

That sounds about right, as small generators are not that efficient compared to large utility generating stations.

The real problem is that it would take you 4 hours of charging by the road shoulder to get enough juice to drive that 23 miles.

 

[samclem]

So, for 1 gallon with the backup generator, you can drive 3.64 hrs/gal x 1.6 kW x 3.9 miles/ kWh = 22.71 miles/gal.

Interesting, thanks for doing the math. That's actually a lot better MPG than I would have guessed given the thermodynamics of that small IC engine (lots of surface area and loss of heat per unit of displacement), the conversions (mechanical energy to electricity, battery losses, back to mechanical energy), and the relatively unsophisticated IC engine in the generator (compared to a modern car--no variable valve timing, use of a carburetor (egad!) etc).

Are we sure that 3.9 miles/KWH is for power into the car, or is it 3.9 miles per KWH delivered to the electric motors?

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
So, for 1 gallon with the backup generator, you can drive 3.64 hrs/gal x 1.6 kW x 3.9 miles/ kWh = 22.71 miles/gal.

Interesting, thanks for doing the math. That's actually a lot better MPG than I would have guessed given the thermodynamics of that small IC engine (lots of surface area and loss of heat per unit of displacement), the conversions (mechanical energy to electricity, battery losses, back to mechanical energy), and the relatively unsophisticated IC engine in the generator (compared to a modern car--no variable valve timing, use of a carburetor (egad!) etc).

Are we sure that 3.9 miles/KWH is for power into the car, or is it 3.9 miles per KWH delivered to the electric motors?

Maybe a little generous, but in the ballpark I'd say.

At wiki, I see 2015 Nissan Leaf is 24 kWh battery, 84 EPA miles, for 3.5 miles / kWh. But I think you do need to figure charging losses, I think 90% efficiency is close? So 3.64*1.6*3.5*.9 = 18.35 mpg. Still better than I would think as well.

But also consider - no catalytic converter or much else in the way of pollution controls on that little generator. Pollution-wise, it may well be orders of magnitude worse than just driving an ICE/hybrid vehicle direct.

Of course, no one is going to do this for any significant miles, more of a thought experiment for reference/education.

-ERD50

 

[haha]

I imagine that this is "fun" in the same sense that retiring to raise hogs or keep a few chickens or run a b&b is fun. Fun only as an acceptable life complication that creates a way to deal with boredom among those who no longer need to make a living.

IOW, it is a hobby.

I don't have a car now, but if I did its major purpose would be to try to get me beyond harm's way, in the event of geophysical or climatological or social tremors. The LEAF, no matter how marvelous it may be for other purposes, does not seem like a first choice for getting out of Dodge.

Ha

 

[aja8888]

I imagine that this is "fun" in the same sense that retiring to raise hogs or keep a few chickens or run a b&b is fun. Fun only as an acceptable life complication that creates a way to deal with boredom among those who no longer need to make a living.

IOW, it is a hobby.

I don't have a car now, but if I did its major purpose would be to try to get me beyond harm's way, in the event of geophysical or climatological or social tremors. The LEAF, no matter how marvelous it may be for other purposes, does not seem like a first choice for getting out of Dodge.

Ha

When we had the last set of hurricanes here in The Gulf, we had no gasoline stations that could either receive fresh supplies, or had power to pump it. If you had an electric car, you would have made it as far as you had juice, and that wouldn't be far since all the main roads were stuffed with vehicles that ran out of fuel.

Sometimes, you just can't "get out of Dodge"!

 

[NW-Bound]

I imagine that this is "fun" in the same sense that retiring to raise hogs or keep a few chickens or run a b&b is fun. Fun only as an acceptable life complication that creates a way to deal with boredom among those who no longer need to make a living.

IOW, it is a hobby...

I am trying to think of upgrading 3 desktops and 2 laptops to Win 10 the same way. You've got to keep a sense of humor, else you would be doing this:

 

[TromboneAl]

I think I got this discussion going in the wrong direction by talking about my experiments with range.

Here's a hypothetical week in the life of the car, and it will show you that range and range anxiety are simply not issues. Note that we are much further from towns than most people. I show the round-trip miles for each trip.

• Sunday: Lena meets her friends for running at a local park, 8 miles of driving (round trip).
  Lena goes to song circle, 17 miles
• Monday: I go to the dentist. 35 miles.
• Tuesday: Lena goes to choir. 35 miles.
• Wednesday: We go into town for fun. 70 miles.
• Thursday: Lena volunteers at the hospital. 36 miles.
• Friday: Lena has coffee with her friends. 40 miles.
• Saturday: We go into town for fun. 110 miles (with charging).

So, this shows how I'm some kind of weird introvert who stays home most of the time, and Lena gets to have fun driving the car.

Ha ha. No, it shows that range just isn't an issue. If we need to go further, we just take the Tacoma. No big deal.

This reminds me of the year 2000. I was in a swing band, and every week we had trouble organizing rehearsals and gigs. I suggested we use email to set things up.

The sax player said. "Hey. I've got a phone. You've got a phone. Why do we need email?"

I knew it was just his inexperience with email that made it hard for him to see the advantages. It's kind of like that with this: It's hard to judge the pros and cons until you've experienced it.

 

[TromboneAl]

Are we sure that 3.9 miles/KWH is for power into the car, or is it 3.9 miles per KWH delivered to the electric motors?

It is the latter.

There have been different conclusions drawn related to the issue of overall environmental impact. That doesn't concern me much. I chose an electric car for the fun and the simplicity of it.

For example, from: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...er-for-the-environment-than-gas-powered-ones/

Renault recently made public a report that provides a fair assessment by comparing an electric version of its Fluence sedan with gas and diesel-powered versions of the same car. And it makes clear that electric cars are, indeed, better for the environment. The report is a life-cycle assessment, a “cradle to grave” analysis, including not only the emissions involved in using the car, but also the emissions from making it, the resources consumed in manufacturing, and a range of environmental impacts. It looked at not only greenhouse-gas emissions, but impacts on acid rain, ozone pollution, algae blooms, consumption of water and materials such as steel and copper, and total energy demand.

The study found that while the environmental impact of making electric vehicles is greater than for making gas and diesel vehicles, this is more than made up for by the greater impact of gas and diesel vehicles while they’re being used. This is true in terms of total energy consumption, use of resources, greenhouse gases, and ozone pollution.
​

 

[NW-Bound]

Here's a hypothetical week in the life of the car, and it will show you that range and range anxiety are simply not issues...

Good to know that you are not a masochist nor a thrill seeker.

If I get one to run errands, my trips to Home Depot, the library or to the grocery stores will be under 20 miles round-trip. I don't think I would want to venture out to 110 miles (not sure there are many charging stations around here).

 

[Just_Steve]

I think I got this discussion going in the wrong direction by talking about my experiments with range.

I actually find the range part of the discussion the most interesting.
I ride a motorcycle with a small tank and no fuel gauge, I know approximately how many miles I can go before needing to fuel up, sometimes I ride until the engine sputters but then reach down and flip the reserve switch and know how far I can go to get gas. I understand what and why you do what you do.
To bad you don't have a reserve switch.

 

[haha]

To bad you don't have a reserve switch.

I remember this from a late 50s Beetle. No gas gauge, just that reserve switch. I think this car had 36 horsepower. There were grades on the Merritt Parkway that were close to impossible. Add a little headwind and forget about getting to NYC. There were some extremely popular cars that were truly awful. My friend had an old VW bus in the early 70s. Like to get blown off the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge more than once!

Sounds like the Leaf is a jewel compared to these things.

Ha

 

[NW-Bound]

Out of curiosity, I looked at local ads, and saw a 2011 Leaf offered by a dealer, asking a mere $8,900 for a car with 4,200 miles!

Could it be that the battery is all shot? But then, what about Nissan's factory warranty?