United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

[playaman]

Whether one likes it or not, the reality is that the country has moved to the right -- and pensions, social security and the like are not favored by those in power.

Almost 20 years or so ago when I went from a company with a traditional defined pension plan to a consulting firm (with a 401(k) or the like), I was upset -- how would I fund my retirement? Nothing "felt" right.

Today, I'm really glad that my retirement has been in 401(k)'s (maxed) since that time. Plus, a few good stock options that didn't all go underwater in the first years of the current administration and all bonuses put into investments.

I feel really sorry for airline employees, autoworkers and others who have looked for a "real" retirement with a solid pension. Pensions are clearly on their way out, and the current Administration will do nothing to discourage that trend.

 

[saluki9]

I do feel bad for they employees who are going to lose benefits, but do they really think that UAL can afford to pay them? This is a company that shouldn't be in business period.

As sad as it sounds, if after 30 months of chapter 11 they can't get it together they should be allowed to fold. There is still too much capacity in the airline business.

Also, for all the hatred of management, who would you like to run the company, the flight attendants? We saw what happened when the employees owned it, they gave themselves huge pay increases, and pension benefits.

If they are serious about having a strike, I suggest they go talk to some (former) employees of Easter airlines and see how that worked out for them?

 

[sgeeeee]

. . . That's capitalism. It is not, however, a model that I embrace. We just have to accept it. . . .

playaman:

Whether one likes it or not, the reality is that the country has moved to the right -- and pensions, social security and the like are not favored by those in power.

saluki9:

I do feel bad for they employees who are going to lose benefits, but do they really think that UAL can afford to pay them? This is a company that shouldn't be in business period.

What bothers me about this discussion is the willingness of so many to simply say, "Well, pensions aren't popular today and the adminstration doesn't care about the working class, so why don't all those people who worked their whole life with the promise of a pension just get over it and accept that they've been screwed by the executives and current adminstration?"

This isn't about a transition from fixed benefit plans to 401Ks. That transition is happening. It can happen without screwing the workers who started out on the old system.

This is about executives making a promise for 30 years but not funding and paying for that promise. It's about them lying to the work force and now asking for permission to just walk away with their own benefit packages in tact, but screwing everyone who worked for them. It's about a government that seems to think the best course of action is to just look the other way while this happens.

Capitalism does not require that we tolerate lies and fraud from executives. Some of you may have chosen to accept that. But it is not a requirement for capitalism.

 

[gratefuled]

I had an interview with Macy's when I was fresh out of college in 1993. The night before the interview I found a story in the Wall Street Journal: "Macy's To Renege on Pension Plan Benefits," or words to that effect.

I went to the interview knowing it was a futile exercise. I asked the guy who interviewed me why I would want to build a career with a company that would do such a thing to its retirees. He swallowed hard and changed the subject.

I didn't get an offer. Drat and blast.

Ed

 

[Michael]

A fair approach is to abolish pension plans (including those offered by the government) all together and to return all contributions to social security (or any type of pension plan) with interest so that we can manage our own money to fund our retirement instead of depedence on the government or corporations - my 2 cents worth.

Good luck. They robbed that money from you fair and square, and they're not giving it back. Nothing better than getting a free 30 years work out of some poor guy who can't defend himself.

 

[BUM]

Pensions are long term corporate liabilities. If the corporation is sold or goes belly-up those liabilities become part-and-parcel to the sale or bankruptcy proceedings. Sad but true.

Some old testament was quoted above. The miracle of the loaves and fishes would be more appropriate here. This is not about Democrats or Republicans or UAL obligations to employees...its about corporate collapse. This company lost $5B+ in 3 years.

Wanna hang the execs? Get a rope. It won't change anything. This is closer to market dynamics, not Enron-esque felonies.

BUM

 

[Spanky]

Capitalism does not require that we tolerate lies and fraud from executives. Some of you may have chosen to accept that. But it is not a requirement for capitalism[/qoute]

True, it is not a requirement. The concept of capitalism is fine, but the implementation by the elite is questionable.

 

[indymom]

OK, how can I vote against abortion and euthanasia, and for corporate responsibility and worker rights. All these hang together for me, but politically they don't work, which is frustrating in the extreme.

 

[haha]

OK, how can I vote against abortion and euthanasia, and for corporate responsibility and worker rights. All these hang together for me, but politically they don't work, which is frustrating in the extreme.

This is a very interesting observation you make IndyMom. Many people who would have been Democrats one generation ago are Republicans now- becasue the Democrats have been co-opted by some very narrow non-mainstream social groups. Gay/Lesbian. radical feminists, abortion(part of #2). The Democrats have somehow become the party of single people versus Republican families.

Still, I agree with one of the prior posters- I think Bum- that the airline industry as it has existed is toast anyway, and this is just the way things happen. Airline employees have been overpaid for 75 years. It will end, and I for one don't get real broken up about reality finally coming home. They might have saved some of their very generous wages along the way.

My Dad lost his union pension after working for 50 years, because technological change wrecked the powerbase of the union. He had always saved, so he handled it well. Capitalism is creative destruction.

I also agree with some posters that in general executives are grossly overpaid. I would love to see something done about that, but it doesn't seem likely.

Mikey

 

[sgeeeee]

. . .This is not about Democrats or Republicans or UAL obligations to employees...its about corporate collapse. This company lost $5B+ in 3 years. . .

Oh. . . what a steaming crock of bull!!! This is a transfer of the ruling class drunken sailor debt onto the working class again. This is not a natural consequence of capitalism or a necessary result of airline industry problems.

We will all pay for this through taxes to support PBGC. The workers will pay both through taxes and loss of pension. Those responsible for the poor planning will walk free. That's wrong. And none of us should except it as a natural consequence of capitalism or supply and demand.

The underfunding of the pensions was not a recent development that snuck up on the corporation. It was an obligation that is supposed to be regulated and controled. The executives intentionally skimped and hid the problem. They fought regulators for more liberal interpretations of the rules for years. They prioritized their payments, and pensions ranked on the bottom. That's what's wrong.

Certainly if the executives had been placing a reasonable priority on the pension funding, the airline may have gone belly-up sooner. And had that happened, the workers would have suffered job loss and had to search for other employment. But the long term worker would have been better off and the executives would have had to end their gravy train sooner. That would have been more fair and we should be striving for that with our laws -- not accepting this kind of rip-off as a natural consequence of capitalism.

 

[BUM]

-SG,

Don't agree with your post. But I love that ranting little guy!

 

[Beststash]

SG - you get my vote!!!

I think it is amazing to visit work and see the blind loyalty too the "company" by workers - this is due to a legacy of trust that was developed in the past. The present and future seems to be where the execs almost are able to raid the coffers at the workers expense. They claim pay for performance as they downsize, sell off company assets, and totally screw the people that actually are responsible for their good fortune.
I just think it is totally wrong to be able to defer their liabilities to the taxpayers, screw the shareholders, and our government allow them to restructure and go right back into "bidness" and do it all over again.
I think most peoples opinion on these issues are directly dependent on whether they are directly affected by these actions. It is easy to look the other way until it affects you.
Whether people of all political preferences want to admit it or not - there is such a thing as "right" and "wrong" - talk about values. Oh well, we get what we vote for.......

 

[BUM]

SG - you get my vote!!!

I think it is amazing to visit work and see the blind loyalty too the "company" by workers

It is amazing. Employees like that- lifers, are often rewarded with a lifetime of retirement benefits. Sometimes it dosent work out and the loyalty isnt rewarded beyond the last paycheck. If your employer is losing billions per year, its time to place your loyalty elsewhere.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Oh. . . what a steaming crock of bull!!!  This is a transfer of the ruling class drunken sailor debt onto the working class again.  This is not a natural consequence of capitalism or a necessary result of airline industry problems. 

And none of us should except it as a natural consequence of capitalism or supply and demand.

And of course, I have precisely the opposite view. BTW, there is a fine line
between opining and whining

JG

 

[ex_CFO_now_RVer]

While I agree that many executives are grossly overpaid, it is often the Board of Directors that determines what is contributed to the Pension plan each year subject to minimums and maximums.

As an Officer I had my thoughts, based upon actuaries assumptions but I was always overruled by the Board.  They assumed that since I participated in the Plan I was biased.

Just one of the reasons I quit at 50...

BTW...they always contributed less than I recommended...

 

[Spanky]

While I agree that many executives are grossly overpaid, it is often the Board of Directors that determines what is contributed to the Pension plan each year subject to minimums and maximums.

Do you mean "most" instead of "many"? Is it true that the board of directors is responsible for determing the CEO compensation? Is that true that most of the members of the board are CEOs from other companies? Is it true that they only care about their own interests?

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Do you mean "most" instead of "many"? Is it true that the board of directors is responsible for determing the CEO compensation? Is that true that most of the members of the board are CEOs from other companies? Is it true that they only care about their own interests?

Are these serious questions? I honestly can't tell. Anyway, for those
of you who may be getting confused, in a corporation, the Board of
Directors sets CEO compensation. That's the way it works.

JG

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I also agree with some posters that in general executives are grossly overpaid. I would loive to see something done about that, but it doesn't seem likely.

Mikey

Mikey MIkey Mikey! Would you rather give the money to the government? BTW, I share indymom's frustration. My solution?
Don't vote. If you think both parties are nuts and working
against your best interests.........just stay home. Or, you can hold
your nose and vote against the evil of 2 lessers. I choose to
not participate in what I view as farcical in the extreme.

JG

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Actually I think BOTH parties have been co-opted by special interest hot-button issues.

I'm a life-long political conservative, but unfortunately I dont agree with the republican party on just about ANY issue they've picked up.

On airlines...riddle me this batman...why is it that airlines cant get the cost of a meal under $10 (and it still sucks) and I can buy any decent frozen dinner I want for under $3, and Macdonalds can produce a sandwich, french fries and a drink for under $4?

The 'airline meals' come frozen just like a Hungry Man does, they warm it up...so whats the deal? It costs $6 per meal to bring it out in that little elevator truck and put it on the airplane?!?

With that sort of "economy" that I can get my arms around easily, it makes me wonder what sort of magic they're performing with the rest of the financial decisions.

 

[sgeeeee]

And of course, I have precisely the opposite view.  BTW, there is a fine line
between opining and whining 

JG

John Galt, the bleeding heart neo-con. He's always looking out for the poorly understood and under-regarded wealthy elite. No tax break for the rich is undeserved and taking advantage of the working class is just good capitalism at work.

Anyone who doesn't see the inherent truth in this is clearly whining.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Okay you two, dont make me come over there

 

[sgeeeee]

Actually I think BOTH parties have been co-opted by special interest hot-button issues.

. . .

Please note that I haven't said anything good about Democrats in this thread. That's no accident. The Democrats have become the Party without a clue. No vision. No leadership. No clue.

But they are irrelevant to our current problems which are being driven by the ruling Party -- the current GOP defines itself based on their opinion on the 4 G's:

Guns
God
Gays and
Give-aways to the rich.

I'm convinced that Karl Rove and the current administration only really cares about the 4th G, but they've figured out that there are three ill-informed, 1-issue voter minorities defined by the first 3 G's. Pay lip-service to Guns, God and Gays and you get enough reactionary minority vote to win and drive your real agenda.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Mmm hmm. I thoroughly enjoyed a letter to 'dear abby' in the paper yesterday. She had given advice to a confused teenager about 'coming out' to her parents, that the parents would think they had done something wrong to cause her to 'become' gay.

Abby advised that it had little to do with parenting, and more to do with genetics.

The letter writer told abby that she had "better correct her error of judgement and retract that statement about being gay not being a choice, or it would clearly indicate that abby was a gay and lesbian mouthpiece".

Sad to see "Dear Abby" getting "dixie chicked".

Sadder still the state of affairs in politics in this country.

 

[LEX]

I will repeat myself.  The following is from my GM bond post a couple of days ago, but its still applicable:

Quote: "When one realizes the BIG LIE behind socialism, communism, and corporatism (work hard now, AND WE PROMISE we'll take care of you when you are old and frail) and takes control of their own future fate, they are finally living in the present, self reliant and not dependent, and have the ability to transform themselves from peasants to feemen.  Its been that way since the first wage was paid to the guy pulling stones to build the Pyramids.  Too bad few ever truly get it until its too late." 

I personally believe this marks the beginning of the end of corporate power. Once the executives and their shareholders act on the premise that ethics and good faith too expensive for the balance sheet, the seeds for social reactions are sown. Recall that a corporation is a creature of the law, and can be dissolved if the host society deems it to be the better choice. Watch what happens as all the pensions collapse to the lowest standards of the PBGC and the population of defrauded employees swell. This is the economic and political kindling that formets rebellion and chaos.

 

[parnass]

I will repeat myself. The following is from my GM bond post a couple of days ago, but its still applicable:

When one realizes the BIG LIE behind socialism, communism, and corporatism (work hard now, AND WE PROMISE we'll take care of you when you are old and frail) ...

A corporate pension is deferred compensation and has nothing to do with communism. It is earned and is not a handout.