Why not drive a Tesla?

[Fedup]

But, but, but that does not generate any goodwill with their customers. Here in the scorching SW, a shopping mall would attract more shoppers with a shaded parking structure.

I read from the WSJ that California generated so much electricity from solar that they have to pay Arizona to take the electric off their grids otherwise it makes the electric frequency goes too high. Maybe it's a temporary problem. Eventually California will sort this problem out.

 

[GravitySucks]

Kill two birds with one stone -- install carports with solar panels on the roof. Keeps the car cool and helps charge it.

Went to a gentlemen so house in Michigan with just that.
One carport covered with solar panels charged two electric cars, lawn mower and weed whacker.
He also sold some back to the grid.

 

[GravitySucks]

This describes me too.

I've averaged around 25K miles a year for at least four decades. No change when I retired. A lot of it used to be commuting, but now it's all pleasure driving. I'm always kind of amazed at the consistency of it -- I mean 25K plus or minus 2K every single year.



I recognize that I'm an outlier among the general population, but I do enjoy driving.

I averaged about 13k a year when working, now I'm well over 30k a year since retired.
Planning my next trip of 4K in a 40 year old RV this September, not counting 2 planned 900 mile car trips to visit DD and a 1200 mile trip to see the August eclipse.
ADVENTURE TIME!

 

[LARS]

Get a range of around 600 miles on a charge and have short time to recharge for minimum of 150 miles and electric gets real interesting to me. Until then, very happy with our X5 diesel which has a range of up to 700 miles on highway and is averaging over 26 mpg.

 

[Texas Proud]

Seems Tesla does not like it when crash test results are not to their liking....


Tesla Response To IIHS Crash Test Is Irresponsible And Uncalled For


Also, the stock dropped over 20% in the last few weeks... still up 45% for the year and YTD....

The shorts are really on this one... over 24% of the shares shorted...

 

[Koolau]

Seems Tesla does not like it when crash test results are not to their liking....


Tesla Response To IIHS Crash Test Is Irresponsible And Uncalled For


Also, the stock dropped over 20% in the last few weeks... still up 45% for the year and YTD....

The shorts are really on this one... over 24% of the shares shorted...

Interesting article and I don't know enough to disagree with any of the objective (and even subjective) comments about Tesla. I was just surprised that they somehow managed to include a gratuitous and (my opinion) totally out of place political comparison at the end. For me, it puts their entire premise at some jeopardy. Not trying to be political at all. Far from it. I'm just suggesting that those who find a way to bring everything back to their particular brand of political view may damage their own credibility. I would think this would especially be true when they don't even have to in order to make their point. After all, their criticism of Tesla is NOT a political piece as such. Clearly in today's political atmosphere there will be those that agree and those that disagree with their politics. I just don't see how it adds any credibility to the piece whether you agree or not with the politics. More than ever, YMMV.

 

[NW-Bound]

I read from the WSJ that California generated so much electricity from solar that they have to pay Arizona to take the electric off their grids otherwise it makes the electric frequency goes too high. Maybe it's a temporary problem. Eventually California will sort this problem out.

I did not know about this, so just looked up the Web and found this article in LA Times.

California invested heavily in solar power. Now there’s so much that other states are sometimes paid to take it - Los Angeles Times

On 14 days during March, Arizona utilities got a gift from California: free solar power.

Well, actually better than free. California produced so much solar power on those days that it paid Arizona to take excess electricity its residents weren’t using to avoid overloading its own power lines.

It happened on eight days in January and nine in February as well. All told, those transactions helped save Arizona electricity customers millions of dollars this year, though grid operators declined to say exactly how much. And California also has paid other states to take power.​

Being an EE, but not a power engineer, I do not understand why a solar plant cannot be shutdown if its output is not needed and has to be unloaded somewhere. A thermal or nuclear plant cannot be throttled or started/stopped that quickly, but a photovoltaic solar plant?

However, this brings up a point that many have tried to make. That is, solar/wind power is so variable and not predictable. A cloud passing over a solar plant can knock down its power drastically in a matter of minutes.

Unless we have cheap and reliable gigantic banks of battery, the problem will get worse as more solar plants come online. And then, there will not be enough storage to coast through the winter. People like to bring up hydro storage, but it would take some reservoir of the magnitude of the Great Lakes.

 

[haha]

Great additions to my thought experiment. HCCI is especially interesting. I purposely left out a lot of the interesting possibilities to keep it simple. I wanted to keep focus on just the simple case. And I was aware that there are two major differences between a standard hybrid and our "remote series hybrid" (great concise & descriptive name, BTW):

1. Efficiency Loss: ICE never drives wheels, therefore there exist efficiency loss from mechanical -> electrical -> chemical -> electrical -> mechanical
   
2. Efficiency Gain: ICE can run at constant optimal RPM
   

Note: I acknowledge that you also stated that the EV requires extra cost, weight, and space. Let's ignore cost and space because we're just talking about emissions & efficiency. And weight could be somewhat ignored because the range of vehicle weights are still within the same ballpark -- so let's just do that for simplification.



What magnitude for each of these (#1 & #2) would you estimate? Are they close enough to cancel (and therefore ignore?)



Oh! And did you happen to see my "Edit"? If we do this same thought experiment for the home (taking the home off grid), that would get rid of the efficiency loss from multiple conversions. In reality, you would need at least a small energy storage device such as a battery, but for simplicity sake, assume a mostly constant load at home. So, would the "series hybrid home" case be better than the "grid-electric home"?



Should we (and by "we," I really mean "you," because I'm a bit lazy ) start putting some numbers down? Or do we need to further define the variables and conditions?





QUICK SIDE NOTE: I'm really starting to enjoy our conversations now! And maybe it's just me, but I feel the tone of the entire thread is better too.

This is definitely an excellent thread with many very well informed posters.

Ha

 

[ERD50]

...

Being an EE, but not a power engineer, I do not understand why a solar plant cannot be shutdown if its output is not needed and has to be unloaded somewhere. A thermal or nuclear plant cannot be throttled or started/stopped that quickly, but a photovoltaic solar plant? ... .

There is a simple answer to your question - but it is not an engineering answer, it is a political one.

From what I understand, many of the renewable sources are paid a subsidy based on what they produce. So if they get, say 2 cents/kWh subsidy for making 'green' electricity, they are better off selling it for a negative 1 cent, and netting 1 penny in subsidy, rather than just shutting off their inverters (which of course, we both know they can do very easily - engineering-wise).

-ERD50

 

[kombat]

However, this brings up a point that many have tried to make. That is, solar/wind power is so variable and not predictable. A cloud passing over a solar plant can knock down its power drastically in a matter of minutes.

This is simply making the case for an integrated, nation-wide power grid. Large countries like the US and Canada are better-positioned to take advantage of variable power sources (like solar and wind) than smaller countries, because while it may be rainy and cloudy in New York, it could be perfectly clear in Arizona. While the wind may be calm in Detroit, it could be blowing strongly in Seattle.

 

[NW-Bound]

This is simply making the case for an integrated, nation-wide power grid. Large countries like the US and Canada are better-positioned to take advantage of variable power sources (like solar and wind) than smaller countries, because while it may be rainy and cloudy in New York, it could be perfectly clear in Arizona. While the wind may be calm in Detroit, it could be blowing strongly in Seattle.

Now, as we expect AZ to provide power to other states when they get no wind nor sun, then the solar arrays in AZ will have to be supersized. Same as the other places that have windmills. The power grid will have to be beefed up if we are going to transmit that much power from one place to another. Currently the grid is only transferring a portion of the power, as there are no states that have zero power production.

It is going to be expensive. And we do not even know how much extra capacity we will need. Germany still has contracts out to traditional power plants to maintain their idle equipment in the case it is needed. I posted an actual chart a while back showing there were winter days when the green power produced by Germany was a tiny fraction of the usage.

How much reliability do we need? Currently massive power outage due to insufficient power production is very rare. Can society tolerate 99% reliability (4 days of outage in a year), or do we still want 99.999% or whatever is current? This kind of question will drive the cost way up.

 

[ls99]

This is simply making the case for an integrated, nation-wide power grid. Large countries like the US and Canada are better-positioned to take advantage of variable power sources (like solar and wind) than smaller countries, because while it may be rainy and cloudy in New York, it could be perfectly clear in Arizona. While the wind may be calm in Detroit, it could be blowing strongly in Seattle.

Wheeling power (industry term for transferring electrical power) from Arizona to NY is likely not cost effective. Transmission losses would be way too high. Maybe a few hundred miles is practical depending on transmission line voltage. The higher the voltage, the greater the distance it can be transferred to.

 

[ERD50]

Now, as we expect AZ to provide power to other states when they get no wind nor sun, then the solar arrays in AZ will have to be supersized. ...

It is going to be expensive. ...

How much reliability do we need? Currently massive power outage due to insufficient power production is very rare. Can society tolerate 99% reliability (4 days of outage in a year), or do we still want 99.999% or whatever is current? This kind of question will drive the cost way up.

Yes, it's common to hear the renewable energy supporters hand-wave these issues - "we just need storage, and/or a smart grid" or whatever (not directed at the comments from kombat, just speaking generally).

But when you start putting numbers to that, in terms of cost, environment, reliability, etc, it just gets out of hand very quickly. Even allowing for future improvements. We just aren't even close on storage options, and those waste a good % of the energy on the round trip in/out.

As NW-Bound mentioned with Germany, if you want wind/solar to make up a big % of your power, you need to keep backup power plants on line. So add that to the cost of wind/solar. To the degree that wind/solar can supplement our grid, it seems like a good thing (though there are some questions on all the hazardous waste from making solar cells, and their eventual end-of-life issues). But at higher %, you run into issues very quickly.

-ERD50

 

[Texas Proud]

Now, as we expect AZ to provide power to other states when they get no wind nor sun, then the solar arrays in AZ will have to be supersized. Same as the other places that have windmills. The power grid will have to be beefed up if we are going to transmit that much power from one place to another. Currently the grid is only transferring a portion of the power, as there are no states that have zero power production.

It is going to be expensive. And we do not even know how much extra capacity we will need. Germany still has contracts out to traditional power plants to maintain their idle equipment in the case it is needed. I posted an actual chart a while back showing there were winter days when the green power produced by Germany was a tiny fraction of the usage.

How much reliability do we need? Currently massive power outage due to insufficient power production is very rare. Can society tolerate 99% reliability (4 days of outage in a year), or do we still want 99.999% or whatever is current? This kind of question will drive the cost way up.

Yes, utilities have to make sure that they have the ability to produce electricity and will have idle plants laying around.... I used to have a friend who worked at one... this was when deregulation was coming into its own... they kept the plant running producing steam even though they were not producing electricity... they sold the steam to refineries and other large industrial plants around his... AFAIK, he worked there 15 years that I knew him and they never produced on KWH of electricity....


Once he said they spent $20 mill redoing the turbine since it was 'time'...


Why did they pay to have crews there 24/7/365 Because the plant affected the price they would pay to other producers... Seems a waste to me, but the big picture it was cheap....

 

[Texas Proud]

This is simply making the case for an integrated, nation-wide power grid. Large countries like the US and Canada are better-positioned to take advantage of variable power sources (like solar and wind) than smaller countries, because while it may be rainy and cloudy in New York, it could be perfectly clear in Arizona. While the wind may be calm in Detroit, it could be blowing strongly in Seattle.

You mean that 3 areas of the country is not big enough for you

Notice that Texas has its own... so the feds cannot tell it what to do!!!

 

[gerntz]

You mean that 3 areas of the country is not big enough for you

Notice that Texas has its own... so the feds cannot tell it what to do!!!

Which one(s) are Hi & Ak on?

 

[ncbill]

more interconnections = more cascading power outages

forget solar on my roof, I just want a cheaper version of the Powerwall so I can still have (limited) power for several days when the increasingly unreliable local power grid goes down...

 

[Texas Proud]

Which one(s) are Hi & Ak on?

We will never be interconnected to either of those....

 

[meierlde]

Wheeling power (industry term for transferring electrical power) from Arizona to NY is likely not cost effective. Transmission losses would be way too high. Maybe a few hundred miles is practical depending on transmission line voltage. The higher the voltage, the greater the distance it can be transferred to.

this is why you need a HVDC (High Voltage Direct Curent) grid for long distance transmission. For example today power is taken from Churchill Falls in Labrador to the North East by HVDC. There is also a HVDC line from the Dalles Or to La. HVAC lines get too complex to operate over long distances compared to HVDC. It takes a smaller ground footprint to move energy over HVDC compared to HVAC.

 

[NW-Bound]

Yes, HVDC is the way to go, and already in use for some interties.

But first, we need to have power to transmit from place to place. Where do we get that power?

Here's an interesting 2016 article from MIT about Germany's experience. It says

At one point this month renewable energy sources briefly supplied close to 90 percent of the power on Germany’s electric grid. But that doesn’t mean the world’s fourth-largest economy is close to being run on zero-carbon electricity. In fact, Germany is giving the rest of the world a lesson in just how much can go wrong when you try to reduce carbon emissions solely by installing lots of wind and solar.

After years of declines, Germany’s carbon emissions rose slightly in 2015, largely because the country produces much more electricity than it needs. That’s happening because even if there are times when renewables can supply nearly all of the electricity on the grid, the variability of those sources forces Germany to keep other power plants running. And in Germany, which is phasing out its nuclear plants, those other plants primarily burn dirty coal.​

For more details, see: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601514/germany-runs-up-against-the-limits-of-renewables/

 

[ls99]

Back to Tesla, Why not.

The model 3 Feature: Camera in rear view mirror facing the driver. Supposedly is not activated. Kinda of sleazy. So another reason to stay away from musk's peeping eyes.

Elon Musk's Tesla Model 3 has a secret camera installed | Daily Mail Online
Tesla's Model 3 cars have secret cameras installed in the rear view mirror to watch drivers (but the firm insists they aren't activated)

 

[swakyaby]

The model 3 Feature: Camera in rear view mirror facing the driver. Supposedly is not activated[/B]

Good to know. I'll be putting a tiny tape across that camera lens if I find it.

I recently noticed a piece of tape at the top of the touchscreen computer at every workstation at work, about 24 computers in all. When I started peeling back the tape, I saw the camera lens. Found out a colleague covered every camera lens one day. I laughed and replaced the tape.

 

[Nightcap]

The model 3 Feature: Camera in rear view mirror facing the driver. Supposedly is not activated. Kinda of sleazy. So another reason to stay away from musk's peeping eyes.

Elon Musk's Tesla Model 3 has a secret camera installed | Daily Mail Online
Tesla's Model 3 cars have secret cameras installed in the rear view mirror to watch drivers (but the firm insists they aren't activated)

Paranoia will destroy ya.

I can think of one very good reason for a driver-facing camera: the never-sleeping computer will be able to alert you if it detects you nodding off.

 

[Nightcap]

Good to know. I'll be putting a tiny tape across that camera lens if I find it.

I recently noticed a piece of tape at the top of the touchscreen computer at every workstation at work, about 24 computers in all. When I started peeling back the tape, I saw the camera lens. Found out a colleague covered every camera lens one day. I laughed and replaced the tape.

My computer's camera is uncovered. If you're able to access my camera, I've got far bigger problems than the fact that you get to see a slack-jawed face looking down.

 

[ls99]

Paranoia will destroy ya.

I can think of one very good reason for a driver-facing camera: the never-sleeping computer will be able to alert you if it detects you nodding off.

Heh, nothing wrong with paying attention to spy devices.

Yeas that is tesla's mantra. It would have been nicer if they discussed the camera's presence, location and purpose at the release festivities, instead of having it discovered by inquiring minds.

As I noted waaay earlier in the thread, for many other reasons I decline the Tesla wundermobile.