If you make a deal, do you stand by it?

[youbet]

in your opinion what is going on? The only thing I am absolutely sure of is that the dealer is not having trouble deciding what to do.

ha

Not trying to answer for 73ss454, but.......

It seems like dealer A sent dealer B a high tier car with a low tier car's paperwork (2 different cars, 2 different vins). dm test drove and liked the high tier car. He sat down with dealer B and negotiated a price based on the high tier car he physically drove while dealer B looked and negotiated based on the low tier car paperwork, signed the papers for the low tier car and went home in the high tier car. Now the mistake has been discovered and dealer B would like $1,000 to approximate the price they would have charged if they had been looking at the correct, high tier, paperwork.

dm has a bill of sale for the low tier car which the dealer has in its possession. dm has the high tier car with no way to title it, get permanent plates, warranty, etc. dm has paid for the car (although the dealer would like $1k more) so dealer's loss is limited.

Like 75ss454, I think this sounds like way too much of a hassle over too few bux to be an intentional scam by the dealer. But the dealer and his staff certainly are missing a few fries from their happy meal......real idiots. And now they're tying to recoup some of their boo-boo by asking dm for some money.

 

[Westernskies]

Not trying to answer for 73ss454, but.......

It seems like dealer A sent dealer B a high tier car with a low tier car's paperwork (2 different cars, 2 different vins). dm test drove and liked the high tier car. He sat down with dealer B and negotiated a price based on the high tier car he physically drove while dealer B looked and negotiated based on the low tier car paperwork, signed the papers for the low tier car and went home in the high tier car. Now the mistake has been discovered and dealer B would like $1,000 to approximate the price they would have charged if they had been looking at the correct, high tier, paperwork.

dm has a bill of sale for the low tier car which the dealer has in its possession. dm has the high tier car with no way to title it, get permanent plates, warranty, etc. dm has paid for the car (although the dealer would like $1k more) so dealer's loss is limited.

Like 75ss454, I think this sounds like way too much of a hassle over too few bux to be an intentional scam by the dealer. But the dealer and his staff certainly are missing a few fries from their happy meal......real idiots. And now they're tying to recoup some of their boo-boo by asking dm for some money.

Except that Dealer A and Dealer B have the same owner...and now they want to steal the toy out of his happy meal to make up for giving him the large order of fries.

 

[ERD50]

So now I just sorted through this mess, whew! As I see it, it can be stripped down to this:

1) As the last few posts mentioned, it seems unlikely that this was an intentional scam, but you may never know.

2) You have the car you wanted.

3) Due to the mix-up, they want you to come up with $1,000 more than you agreed to, but...

4) That's $1,000 LESS than it would cost you to buy this car that you want somewhere else.

5) Returning the car could end up getting messy, with more stress & frustration.

so... to the emotional side of this - turn it to your advantage. Instead of feeling like you are doing business with a scammer (this may not be a scam), just figure that you are walking away with an extra $1,000 in your pocket due to their mistake. You are ahead of the game. Yes, it's $1,000 more than what you agreed to - but unless you can do better somewhere else, it isn't 'real'. Forget about whether the mistake was 'intentional' or not - you can't prove it so why loose sleep over it. You got the car you want for $1,000 less than anywhere else. YOU WON! Take your winnings and be happy!

-ERD50

 

[Westernskies]

Yes, it's $1,000 more than what you agreed to.... YOU WON! Take your winnings and be happy!-ERD50

OR (depending on your perspective)

It's $1000 more than you were willing to pay. YOU LOSE!
Cough up the extra grand and never be happy about it.

 

[youbet]

I'd put this on a timeline- tell them it needs to be resolved by X day- and your position is that you either need to pick up paperwork for the car you are driving,or you will drop off the car, no hard feelings and sorry you couldn't make the deal work. Ask them to please let you know by the close of business the day before if you need to have someone meet you there to give you a ride home. Oh, and you won't be bringing your checkbook.

You made no mention of getting a full refund of the cash down payment and a clean loan cancellation with no fees.........

Not sure dm is going to feel good about that little omission!

 

[Westernskies]

You made no mention of getting your money back.........

It's not my money to get back.

Not sure dm is going to feel good about that little omission!

Hey, if he doesn't miss the extra $1000, he might not miss the first $30,000, either...

 

[youbet]

It's not my money to get back.



Hey, if he doesn't miss the extra $1000, he might not miss the first $30,000, either...

Ahhhhh..... Ok. Sorry, I took your posts seriously. Now, looking back over them, I see you were just joking around......

 

[Westernskies]

Ahhhhh..... Ok. Sorry, I took your posts seriously. Now, looking back over them, I see you were just joking around......

Well, I guess I did miss mentioning that one small detail...

 

[Nodak]

You would be surprised to hear that many cars have $800 or less profit from MSRP to cost. Also many cars have much more profit than $4000.
Usually the more expensive the car the more room for the dealer to move on price.

You are right, I have a close friend who owns a dealership and he has shown me what he makes on some cars. We've known each other since kindergarten so I'm sure he's being truthful.

 

[lets-retire]

Also, when a situation gets weird like this, I call the situation *muddy*. I don't like to do major monetary transactions once things get muddy. I retrieve/withdraw for a clearer day - and a clearer smooth transaction - most likely with another dealership all toghether, because this dealer is already no good, in my book.

When I was working the streets, we would call scams that become "muddy" gypsy money scams. Many gypsies in the area owned businesses and the way they scammed their victims was to make any financial deal complicated. The more complicated they could make the deal the more money they were scamming. So, like you, when a deal started becoming too complicated I always checked the math. Normally the deal would wind up costing me more than I wanted to spend if I completed the deal. Now if the person starts making a simple deal any more complicated than it has to be, I don't even look at the math, I just walk.

 

[ERD50]

OR (depending on your perspective)

It's $1000 more than you were willing to pay. YOU LOSE!
Cough up the extra grand and never be happy about it.

Sure, you can look at it that way too. But what I take away from this is that he can't get the car anywhere else for that price, or even the 'negotiated' price. He's still winning after dishing out an extra $1,000, just not winning as big as he expected.

IOW, forget the $30,000 transaction ever happened, the $31,000 transaction is still a good deal. And since some people in the business are saying this looks like a screw-up rather than a scam, the OP really is getting the rare 'good deal' at the dealer's expense. I think it IS a WIN, as long as you don;t focus on that 'transient' $30,000 price that apparently was never a 'real' price. I understand the OP felt it was real, as would I, as he made it on the car he was sitting in. But sometimes we just need to adjust our thinking, and I really do feel that this adjustment that gets him the car he wanted for $1,000 less than he could get it anywhere is one he will be happy with, 'down the road'.

Sounds like this could be a chapter for the next 'Freakonomics' book.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

IOW, forget the $30,000 transaction ever happened, the $31,000 transaction is still a good deal. And since some people in the business are saying this looks like a screw-up rather than a scam, the OP really is getting the rare 'good deal' at the dealer's expense.

Yes, I feel this is a mistake by the dealer, and not a scam. If I were the dealership owner, I would swallow this, and ream out the @ss of my sales people later.

Still, as several have pointed out, dm still has a good deal after paying an additional $1K, if he can forget the lower psychological anchor price point of $30K.

 

[growing_older]

So, dealers generally use all sorts of negotiating tactics in hopes of getting consumers confused about the true value of what they are buying, including keeping actual costs secret. But in the rare case where the dealer himself gets confused and accepts a deal but later wishes they could have got more money, they are permitted to hold up the paperwork and demand the consumer pony up at least half of the difference? A difference based on the "secret" information that only the dealer is privy to.

Whether this is an innocent mistake or a scam, it still stinks. There's no way this dealer allows customers to come back in a few days and renegotiate prices lower if they do not like the car as much as they thought. Why should the dealer get unilateral rights to change prices after a sale?

 

[ERD50]

.... But in the rare case where the dealer himself gets confused and accepts a deal but later wishes they could have got more money, they are permitted to hold up the paperwork and demand the consumer pony up at least half of the difference? ...

Whether this is an innocent mistake or a scam, it still stinks. ...

I mostly agree in principle, and this is where the OP is coming from, and I understand it. But the fact is, it looks like the OP isn't holding any cards here. He has a car in his physical possession, but he does not have the paperwork for it, so he can't title it etc. It's messy.

So he can fight it, but from what others have said he will probably lose more than he will gain by accepting the 'negotiated' price (which is still a 'good deal, from the info provided). I am one that stubbornly stands on principle, but even I recognize that at some point you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. IMO, the OP is at that point.

An analogy - Imagine you have done your research and the best price you can get on a specific model TV is $250. So you go to a store to purchase, and you see it for $200 - great! You get to the checkout counter, and they say, I'm sorry sir, we had a pricing error that we just corrected back to $250, but you can have the TV for $225.

$225 is better than you can get anywhere else, it's a good deal. You are not 'losing' $25 from the fleeting $200 price, you are 'winning' $25 from the real best $250 that you can get elsewhere.

I say take it and be happy.

edit/add - it isn't the same as a customer trying to re-negotiate the price because he had second thoughts - there is the very real issue of a mismatched VIN. There is a very real problem here for the OP.

-ERD50

 

[Westernskies]

Sure, you can look at it that way too. But what I take away from this is that he can't get the car anywhere else for that price, or even the 'negotiated' price. He's still winning after dishing out an extra $1,000, just not winning as big as he expected.

IOW, forget the $30,000 transaction ever happened, the $31,000 transaction is still a good deal. And since some people in the business are saying this looks like a screw-up rather than a scam, the OP really is getting the rare 'good deal' at the dealer's expense. I think it IS a WIN, as long as you don;t focus on that 'transient' $30,000 price that apparently was never a 'real' price. I understand the OP felt it was real, as would I, as he made it on the car he was sitting in. But sometimes we just need to adjust our thinking, and I really do feel that this adjustment that gets him the car he wanted for $1,000 less than he could get it anywhere is one he will be happy with, 'down the road'.



Sounds like this could be a chapter for the next 'Freakonomics' book.

-ERD50

ERD, you are forgetting the cardinal rule here on FIRE (LBYM)

If I budget X for something, that is what I am willing to spend, period. Not an extra $1000... If I get it for less, I feel like I got a deal, and am happy. If I have to pay more, I would politely decline because it was over what I budgeted for that particular purchase. Maybe you handle major purchases differently. Hypthetically speaking, would you be happy to pay pay an extra grand for new carpet AFTER it was installed in your home because you liked it? No, you would probably freak out when you got the bill... just because this is a car deal doesn't make it any different. Or, maybe that's just me...

 

[FinanceDude]

Not trying to answer for 73ss454, but.......

It seems like dealer A sent dealer B a high tier car with a low tier car's paperwork (2 different cars, 2 different vins). dm test drove and liked the high tier car. He sat down with dealer B and negotiated a price based on the high tier car he physically drove while dealer B looked and negotiated based on the low tier car paperwork, signed the papers for the low tier car and went home in the high tier car. Now the mistake has been discovered and dealer B would like $1,000 to approximate the price they would have charged if they had been looking at the correct, high tier, paperwork.

dm has a bill of sale for the low tier car which the dealer has in its possession. dm has the high tier car with no way to title it, get permanent plates, warranty, etc. dm has paid for the car (although the dealer would like $1k more) so dealer's loss is limited.

Like 75ss454, I think this sounds like way too much of a hassle over too few bux to be an intentional scam by the dealer. But the dealer and his staff certainly are missing a few fries from their happy meal......real idiots. And now they're tying to recoup some of their boo-boo by asking dm for some money.

The easiest thing to do would be to have the dealer eat the loss. However, I am sure the dealer thinks that splitting the difference is fair, since dm is getting MORE car for his money, and most likely a better deal than almost anyone else got. Mistakes in business happen all the time, the copier guy misquotes stuff, the computer tech misquotes the job, etc. To assume all car dealers are scum and just play games is a blanket statement, and you all now how much I like those kind of statements.

The customer has almost all the rights in this transaction. Certainly, dm could go the legal route, contact state govt, post a complaint against the delaer with the state, etc. However, dm is getting the use of the car and the extra features, so it's not like he is suffering without a car.........

I am glad to hear NOONE on here has ever made a mistake in their job................

 

[Texas Proud]

If its a new car, call the manufacturer's regional representative
NB if they take the car back it may be unlawful for them to sell it as a new car, which gives you even more leverage.
You test drove the car . Any claim that they "delivered" the wrong car is simply crap and the owner should know better .

I would say the question is has it been titled... if not, then you have just been on a long test drive and they can sell it new with miles.. if it has been titled in your name... then it is used..

 

[Bestwifeever]

The easiest thing to do would be to have the dealer eat the loss. However, I am sure the dealer thinks that splitting the difference is fair, since dm is getting MORE car for his money, and most likely a better deal than almost anyone else got. Mistakes in business happen all the time, the copier guy misquotes stuff, the computer tech misquotes the job, etc. To assume all car dealers are scum and just play games is a blanket statement, and you all now how much I like those kind of statements.

The customer has almost all the rights in this transaction. Certainly, dm could go the legal route, contact state govt, post a complaint against the delaer with the state, etc. However, dm is getting the use of the car and the extra features, so it's not like he is suffering without a car.........

I am glad to hear NOONE on here has ever made a mistake in their job................

I didn't see a blanket statement here that all car dealers are scum. Did someone really say that?

I personally would take the wrong car back and get the one with the right VIN number and go on with my life. I don't think it will be easy to get the $ back already paid for the better car just because of the necessary paperwork involved in cutting a check.

I hope it works out for you, DM.

 

[ERD50]

ERD, you are forgetting the cardinal rule here on FIRE (LBYM)

If I budget X for something, that is what I am willing to spend, period. Not an extra $1000...

That's a valid viewpoint on it.

But the OP insisted this is the car he wanted, and I'm assuming (maybe wrongly) that $31,000 versus $30,000 isn't a deal breaker, and that even the $32,000 at the other dealers would not be a deal breaker. He would obviously prefer $30,000 to $31,000, or $31,000 to $32,000 - but it's not clear to me that those were hard limits. I guess the OP will need to tell us that.

If $30,000 is a hard limit, I guess he asks for his money back and returns the car. But then what? He buys a car that he really didn't want for $30,000?

-ERD50

 

[lets-retire]

Not long ago I had to have an A/C unit in my house replaced. I went out got several offers, checked the BBB, etc. One company came in $2-3k less than everyone else. I doubled checked the BBB asked a few friends if they had heard anything bad about the guy and found nothing. When I called the guy to tell him to start work, he asked how his price was compared to everyone else. I told him he was the lowest by a good margin. He said he hoped so, he forgot to add in profit and labor. Then quickly said he would still do the job for the quoted price. THAT is the customer service I expect from everyone I deal with and that is how they keep people happy.

The dealership had several opportunities to discover the error but they didn't. They also have had several opportunities to keep the customer (dm) happy. The company has at least two dealerships. Split the error to both dealerships and they both lose less than $500. Over the course of the year that is nothing and can be made up on a few deals. I'll bet each lot pays more for their electric bill in a month.

 

[Texas Proud]

I'd put this on a timeline- tell them it needs to be resolved by X day- and your position is that you either need to pick up paperwork for the car you are driving,or you will drop off the car, no hard feelings and sorry you couldn't make the deal work. Ask them to please let you know by the close of business the day before if you need to have someone meet you there to give you a ride home. Oh, and you won't be bringing your checkbook.

If it were me.... I would not do anything to push it along... as I said... I am on a LONG test drive.. I will keep it up as long as they want.

Not sure about insurance in other states, but here the owner of the car needs to provide that insurance... so it is the dealer that is responsible...

 

[ERD50]

... Mistakes in business happen all the time, the copier guy misquotes stuff, the computer tech misquotes the job, etc.
.....

I am glad to hear NOONE on here has ever made a mistake in their job................

I'm a very pro-business guy, but along with that I feel that businesses also have to take the responsibility.

Sure, we all make mistakes, but this is their job, they do it every day. A customer buys a car occasionally. I feel that puts the burden on the business to make it right. I really think they should eat it, figure out how the mistake happened, put in corrective action, apologize to the customer, and move on.

But, the reality is that splitting the difference is still a good deal for the OP (assuming the $30,000 was not a hard limit for him), and it seems like the least painful route. I'd still take it, but I'm not him. But I'd probably push pretty hard for getting it for $30,000 - it is their mistake.

-ERD50

 

[Texas Proud]

You are right, I have a close friend who owns a dealership and he has shown me what he makes on some cars. We've known each other since kindergarten so I'm sure he's being truthful.

And I have done tax returns of car dealerships and their owners... they are not hurting over this $1,000...


With the info they have now, knowing they will not get any more money.... the dealership is the one who should make the decision.... 1) we made a mistake and we will eat the loss... here is your paperwork 2) we made a mistake and we want the car back, here is a check for all your money.

There should be NO charges for miles etc. The dealership should take the loss on this as there is NO agreement that mileage would be paid. As I said... a long test drive...

 

[Texas Proud]

I mostly agree in principle, and this is where the OP is coming from, and I understand it. But the fact is, it looks like the OP isn't holding any cards here. He has a car in his physical possession, but he does not have the paperwork for it, so he can't title it etc. It's messy.

So he can fight it, but from what others have said he will probably lose more than he will gain by accepting the 'negotiated' price (which is still a 'good deal, from the info provided). I am one that stubbornly stands on principle, but even I recognize that at some point you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. IMO, the OP is at that point.

An analogy - Imagine you have done your research and the best price you can get on a specific model TV is $250. So you go to a store to purchase, and you see it for $200 - great! You get to the checkout counter, and they say, I'm sorry sir, we had a pricing error that we just corrected back to $250, but you can have the TV for $225.

$225 is better than you can get anywhere else, it's a good deal. You are not 'losing' $25 from the fleeting $200 price, you are 'winning' $25 from the real best $250 that you can get elsewhere.

I say take it and be happy.

edit/add - it isn't the same as a customer trying to re-negotiate the price because he had second thoughts - there is the very real issue of a mismatched VIN. There is a very real problem here for the OP.

-ERD50

ERD... don't know the laws in your state (unless you are living here ) but your TV analogy does not work... if they have the price at $200 IN THE STORE then they have to sell it for $200... they can quickly go back and tear up that sign, or reprice them, but they can not say you owe $225... that is 'bait and switch'... I have gotten a couple of good deals this way...

 

[dm]

I'm still waiting to hear back from the owner. He was suppost to get back to me by 10:00, its a little after that now.

They can sell me the car that I have at the agreed upon price, or they can take the car back and refund my money. If I have to pay more somewhere else I can live with that. I acted in good faith, they made a mistake. I am suprized that they even brought it to my attention that the cars were switched. I would have just said the correct paperwork is on the way, sorry for the typo.