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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-03-2006, 07:41 PM   #21
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum
my ancestors came over in the late 1800s to escape tzarist russia. my mother's side became professionals and manufacturers. my father's side went into entertainment, producing a body of work that quickly became part of americana, and still famous generations later. this is work that would not have existed in russia. this is america that would not have existed without immigrants.
Legal or illegal immigrants?
Is our country's needs any different now?
Does the fact that everybody except for a handful of natives came from somewhere else mean we should do now what we did then?
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-03-2006, 07:54 PM   #22
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Can I ask again, with regards to the topic...

What problem are we trying to solve with all the discussion about immigration?

Lots and lots of solutions, but I still havent heard what the problem is yet.

During our recent 'immigrants day', all the house building stopped and the farms were deserted.

Presuming the "problem" is that these dang immigrants are taking all the jobs that english speaking white people wouldnt want to do for 4x the cost, and the people writing the checks wouldnt pay that much to have done, are we really worried about who cleans our walmarts when tons of 40-60k a year jobs doing tech support are being farmed out to workers in other countries?

To me thats worse...its a real job that real people actually WOULD do, the jobs provide a reasonable living wage, and all the money paid to those non-US countries is gone. 87% of the money paid to US based immigrant workers is spent back into the local economy.

Methinks we're long on solutions, short on problems, and ignoring a real problem in favor of solving one where the solution just sounds great on paper, but would suck hard if we implemented it...unless you like $4 oranges and $10 bags of walnuts and 20% higher build costs on subdivision homes...if you can even get the products or have the construction done.

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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-03-2006, 07:59 PM   #23
 
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Can I ask again, with regards to the topic...

What problem are we trying to solve with all the discussion about immigration?

Lots and lots of solutions, but I still havent heard what the problem is yet.

During our recent 'immigrants day', all the house building stopped and the farms were deserted.

Presuming the "problem" is that these dang immigrants are taking all the jobs that english speaking white people wouldnt want to do for 4x the cost, and the people writing the checks wouldnt pay that much to have done, are we really worried about who cleans our walmarts when tons of 40-60k a year jobs doing tech support are being farmed out to workers in other countries?

To me thats worse...its a real job that real people actually WOULD do, the jobs provide a reasonable living wage, and all the money paid to those non-US countries is gone. 87% of the money paid to US based immigrant workers is spent back into the local economy.

Methinks we're long on solutions, short on problems, and ignoring a real problem in favor of solving one where the solution just sounds great on paper, but would suck hard if we implemented it...unless you like $4 oranges and $10 bags of walnuts and 20% higher build costs on subdivision homes...if you can even get the products or have the construction done.

Well, I guess that's what I was asking at the start of this thread. The problem has always been defined as "Illegal Immigration" - I'm not exactly sure what problems this causes either, so I was merely asking what should we do about it and how would this make things better.

Because, I really don't have a clue! And believe it or not, this is one of the top issues currently in our country. No wonder Congress does not know what to do?

I'm not even hearing a ton of solutions, just a lot of bitching.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-03-2006, 08:16 PM   #24
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

I know of people who have spouses trying to immigrate to the US and are still waiting after several years. Didn't Lex's spouse, a professional, have to struggle to immigrate? That is bothersome to me but I don't know if our illegal alien issues have anything to do with that problem.

I read about at least one study that illegal immigration does not appear to have a statistical significant effect on availability of low skilled jobs for Americans. But I haven't read the study and I don't know if there are any contrary studies. I also don't know if wages are suppressed as a result of illegal aliens taking very low paying jobs.

I don't know what the costs are of illegal immigration and if those costs are outweighed by benefits. I don't know if illegal immigration from Mexico is bad or good for Mexico.

I know so little about the issues that I have no opinion.

My sister's step daughter from Bolivia has very strong feelings about these issues. She told me that proposed legislation would make it a felony for anyone to help an illegal alien. I know some people who arguably help illegal aliens. I don't know what the proposed legislation says.

I do know someone who told me that the day the illegal aliens were going to take off from work that the US should take that opportunity to "round them up."
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-03-2006, 08:19 PM   #25
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

It seems to me there are two well definable problems.

1. Respect for the law. It is “illegal immigration”. We should either enforce the law as it is or change it. When we disregard a law, be it the 55 mile an hour speed limit or unlawful immigration, we cheapen all law.
2. There are currently so many folks coming across the border it is impossible to tell the good illegal immigrant from those that may wish us harm. Every country has the right to know who is coming into the country. The current situation, IMO is not sustainable.

It seems that what is caught up in the politics of the current situation is citizenship for those that have already violated the law. The issue is not if we need immigrant labor. The politics of the arguments is one party hopes to add to it’s voter base, while the other is trying to keep that from happening.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-03-2006, 08:21 PM   #26
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Ok, Sam your solution would be to punish business that hired illegals. What should the sentence be?
I think the "sentence" should be a big fine--it's an economic "crime" and a large fine for each infraction would do the best job of deterring it. If each illegal orange picker cost MegaAggrico $10K, I bet they'd soon be hiring folks who were here legally.

I don't know about four dollar oranges. At least one study (link below, group agenda unknown) says:

" . . .The removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase the summer-fall supermarket prices of fresh fruits and vegetables by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term. During the winter-spring seasons, prices would rise more than 3 percent in the short term and less then 2 percent in the intermediate term. Imports would increase about 1 percent." http://www.cis.org/articles/1996/back296.htm

So, if this is right, oranges would cost just a few percent more if picked by legal immigrants/AMCITS. And, that sounds about right--given the hundreds of oranges a picker processes in an hour, my guess is that this isn't a major portion of the cost of produce.

You'll have $4 oranges without illegal labor only if you presently pay $3.80.


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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-03-2006, 08:37 PM   #27
 
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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Originally Posted by Rustic23
It seems to me there are two well definable problems.

1. Respect for the law. It is “illegal immigration”. We should either enforce the law as it is or change it. When we disregard a law, be it the 55 mile an hour speed limit or unlawful immigration, we cheapen all law.
Glad to see that you never drive over 55.
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Old 05-03-2006, 08:39 PM   #28
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum
my ancestors came over in the late 1800s to escape tzarist russia. my mother's side became professionals and manufacturers. my father's side went into entertainment, producing a body of work that quickly became part of americana, and still famous generations later. this is work that would not have existed in russia. this is america that would not have existed without immigrants.
No doubt true. But please, don't confuse Russian Jews with Mexican or Central American Indians.

Living in Florida you see mostly Cubans. Different group.

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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-03-2006, 08:46 PM   #29
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
So what should the Government Do? That is my question?
Less government = better government.* Illegal immigrants have not created a problem we can identify and solve.* So, let's do nothing which is an appropriate fix for a problem that doesn't exist.* To be fair to all the world's citizens, wannabee illegal immigrants from around the globe should be welcomed in unlimited numbers until conditions make it no longer desirable to immigrate here.* Equilibrium will be reached and we'll have stability.* The issue will have been solved by the market.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-03-2006, 09:04 PM   #30
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

I think the guest worker program taht John McCain is suggesting has the best chance of working. However I do believe that we have to secure our borders first.

Since Mexico is about to legalize a long list of drugs, I am sure that a lot of the drug addicts from the US will go to Mexico to do their drugs legally. I say we keep the hardworking illegal Mexicans and trade them for our druggies.
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Old 05-03-2006, 09:08 PM   #31
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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Originally Posted by youbet
Less government = better government.* Illegal immigrants have not created a problem we can identify and solve.* So, let's do nothing which is an appropriate fix for a problem that doesn't exist.* To be fair to all the world's citizens, wannabee illegal immigrants from around the globe should be welcomed in unlimited numbers until conditions make it no longer desirable to immigrate here.* Equilibrium will be reached and we'll have stability.* The issue will have been solved by the market.
I imagine you are being satirical, but in case you aren't : You make a very good point, very well expressed. But if you have ever seen what these people are coming from, you may not be real pleased with the new equilibrium.

Just get back to work, and hope you can earn enough so that you can emigrate to Switzerland. Shouldn’t be too hard if you can come up with $25 million or so.

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Old 05-03-2006, 09:11 PM   #32
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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So what does the Basic "Red State, Lower middle Class white dude' really want? - Because Really - I have no idea?
CT.....for that matter, what does the elite upper middle class white gentleman really want?
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Old 05-03-2006, 09:31 PM   #33
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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You'd be amazed at what many of the cities here in SoCal have turned into. All of the signs are in spanish, nobody speaks english, no assimilation. It's like you were living in another country. If you live in Boston or the midwest you really have no idea of the magnitude of the immigration issue. We need to really think hard about what our policy will be and the long term implications of those policies. Clearly the present policy, which is no policy, is not serving us well. As immigration continues to accelerate we need to think whether we can absorb every latino or other immigrant that wants to have a better life.
This paragraph lacks a historical perspective that won't be gained by thinking harder. Go look at the old photographs and perhaps we'll realize that the best policy is to continue the present "no policy".

Chinatown in Honolulu has had the same "symptoms" of language & signs for at least 100 years (including rebuilding after immolation a century ago).

My FIL can take you block by block through the 1930s-50s Bronx explaining what immigrants lived in what neighborhoods by their signs, their language, and their cuisine. We're not talking Hispanics alone but Europeans and Asians as well. Of course to him the Bronx is clearly defined into "South Bronx" and "the good part of the South Bronx", so even among immigrant neighborhoods there's apparently a quality distinction.

My grandfather used to tell me the same type of immigrant stories of early 20th century Milford & Cincinnati.

Same thing for me growing up in 1960s-70s Pittsburgh.

In general the first immigrant generation spends their time trying to connect & bond with people of their culture through a shared celebration of their heritage. The second immigrant generation spends most of their time trying to shed their immigrant image. (Ever notice how the kids of immigrants tend to lose the accent in their spoken English?) The third generation spends their time trying to recover the ancestral culture that was foolishly discarded by their stupid parents.

The pattern's probably been this way for a centuries, ever since the Indians snookered those numskull furriners into buying Manhattan Island.
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Old 05-03-2006, 10:41 PM   #34
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

This WSJ article is interesting and relevant.
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Old 05-04-2006, 12:14 AM   #35
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Secure the boarder? I don't think so. This is naive bravado talk. The ~1000 miles of boarder in the middle of inhospitable desert would be impossible to secure without the expenditure of tens of billiions of dollars a year. Hardly seems worth the effort to solve a problem we haven't even defined.

Make them immigrate legally? Our policies don't allow that. Although we apparently have plenty of jobs for these desperate, unskilled workers, we also have immigration quotas that make it nearly impossible for them to immigrate legally unless they have advanced degrees in business or engineering.

Prosecute the employers? If we could do this effectively, it would eventually stop the flow across the boarder. But we would have to make life without a job in the US as miserable as life without a job in Mexico before the flow stopped completely. I don't think we could actually effectively stop employers. I live in Mesa, AZ and I can travel less than a mile in any direction on any morning and find a parking lot full of workers ready to do lawn work, house maintenance, moving, . . . for a negotiated price. It's not big employers hiring these people. It's my neighbors, independent contractors, etc. I would guess that 90% of the dirt moved, wood painted, and furniture moved in Arizona is moved by illegal alliens. Prosecuting would be tough.

I do see what the problem is. The problem is that we have laws that don't make sense and can't be enforced. The solution is to change the laws to make it easier to be a legal alien than it is to be an illegal alien.
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:41 AM   #36
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

Toronto is the most Multi Cutural city in the world, differant areas have differant races in predomince, in some areas signs are in Greek, others in Chinese, no Spanish as they are not a large part of the population, but no big deal.

In most cases you can tell a person's heritage by where they live, differant groups prefer to live together or near a Mosque, others mix, no big deal.

We are all Immigrants, some just got here earlier than others.
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........
Old 05-04-2006, 06:55 AM   #37
 
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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CT.....for that matter, what does the elite upper middle class white gentleman really want?
A discussion on the topic that focuses on the facts, rather than fear and prejudice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
This WSJ article is interesting and relevant.
Good article JB!
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:08 AM   #38
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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Prosecute the employers?* Arizona is moved by illegal alliens.........* Prosecuting would be tough.
I'ts not just Arizona. *It's most everywhere. *I think prosecuting the greed-driven citizen employers would work (reduce employeement of illegals) if we wanted it to, but we don't really have the heart to do it. *To much greed. *We covet the "bargains."
Quote:
The solution is to change the laws to make it easier to be a legal alien than it is to be an illegal alien.* *
sgeeeee, we agree on this point. *While opportunities to have jobs filled or filled at lower costs exist, laws should allow the market to act globally and bring supply to fill the demand. *It's not just Hispanic and South and Central American folks involved either. *At the company I work for, millions of bux are wasted annually in obtaining work visas for software folks from Asia and Europe to come fill openings that otherwise go unfilled or cost too much to fill at USA salaries. *These same dollars could be used to provide plane tickets, housing, sign-on bonus' and all the rest to be sure the best software talent in the world resides right here! *And these are people that could be permanent, legal citizens, not work visa second class employees.
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:10 AM   #39
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

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Old 05-04-2006, 07:54 AM   #40
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Re: illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

A novel approach would be to build more factories in Third World Countries, that way people could stay in their own country and earn a living, instead of sneaking into the U.S to earn one, but I forgot, that's called outsourcing and it costs American's jobs.

The flow will never be stopped, block one point, like water it will flow to another area,solve the problem, the flow will stop.

Easy to acquire Work Visas, renewable every two years as long as no Criminal Charges, NO CITIZENSHIP or Citizen Ship qualification, just a straight permit to work.

Work Permit periods may be extended after several shorter terms have qualified the Immigrant is no risk to the U.S Society.

Work permit conditional upon sponsorship of U.S. Citizen or Landed Immigrant, could be part of the process.
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