illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

[samclem]

Ok, Sam your solution would be to punish business that hired illegals. What should the sentence be?

I think the "sentence" should be a big fine--it's an economic "crime" and a large fine for each infraction would do the best job of deterring it. If each illegal orange picker cost MegaAggrico $10K, I bet they'd soon be hiring folks who were here legally.

I don't know about four dollar oranges. At least one study (link below, group agenda unknown) says:

" . . .The removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase the summer-fall supermarket prices of fresh fruits and vegetables by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term. During the winter-spring seasons, prices would rise more than 3 percent in the short term and less then 2 percent in the intermediate term. Imports would increase about 1 percent." http://www.cis.org/articles/1996/back296.htm

So, if this is right, oranges would cost just a few percent more if picked by legal immigrants/AMCITS. And, that sounds about right--given the hundreds of oranges a picker processes in an hour, my guess is that this isn't a major portion of the cost of produce.

You'll have $4 oranges without illegal labor only if you presently pay $3.80.

 

[Cut-Throat]

It seems to me there are two well definable problems.

1. Respect for the law. It is “illegal immigration”. We should either enforce the law as it is or change it. When we disregard a law, be it the 55 mile an hour speed limit or unlawful immigration, we cheapen all law.

Glad to see that you never drive over 55.

 

[haha]

my ancestors came over in the late 1800s to escape tzarist russia. my mother's side became professionals and manufacturers. my father's side went into entertainment, producing a body of work that quickly became part of americana, and still famous generations later. this is work that would not have existed in russia. this is america that would not have existed without immigrants.

No doubt true. But please, don't confuse Russian Jews with Mexican or Central American Indians.

Living in Florida you see mostly Cubans. Different group.

Ha

 

[youbet]

So what should the Government Do? That is my question?

Less government = better government.  Illegal immigrants have not created a problem we can identify and solve.  So, let's do nothing which is an appropriate fix for a problem that doesn't exist.  To be fair to all the world's citizens, wannabee illegal immigrants from around the globe should be welcomed in unlimited numbers until conditions make it no longer desirable to immigrate here.  Equilibrium will be reached and we'll have stability.  The issue will have been solved by the market.

 

[Momtwo]

I think the guest worker program taht John McCain is suggesting has the best chance of working. However I do believe that we have to secure our borders first.

Since Mexico is about to legalize a long list of drugs, I am sure that a lot of the drug addicts from the US will go to Mexico to do their drugs legally. I say we keep the hardworking illegal Mexicans and trade them for our druggies.

 

[haha]

Less government = better government.  Illegal immigrants have not created a problem we can identify and solve.  So, let's do nothing which is an appropriate fix for a problem that doesn't exist.  To be fair to all the world's citizens, wannabee illegal immigrants from around the globe should be welcomed in unlimited numbers until conditions make it no longer desirable to immigrate here.  Equilibrium will be reached and we'll have stability.  The issue will have been solved by the market.

I imagine you are being satirical, but in case you aren't : You make a very good point, very well expressed. But if you have ever seen what these people are coming from, you may not be real pleased with the new equilibrium.

Just get back to work, and hope you can earn enough so that you can emigrate to Switzerland. Shouldn’t be too hard if you can come up with $25 million or so.

Ha

 

[youbet]

So what does the Basic "Red State, Lower middle Class white dude' really want? - Because Really - I have no idea?

CT.....for that matter, what does the elite upper middle class white gentleman really want?

 

[Nords]

You'd be amazed at what many of the cities here in SoCal have turned into. All of the signs are in spanish, nobody speaks english, no assimilation. It's like you were living in another country. If you live in Boston or the midwest you really have no idea of the magnitude of the immigration issue. We need to really think hard about what our policy will be and the long term implications of those policies. Clearly the present policy, which is no policy, is not serving us well. As immigration continues to accelerate we need to think whether we can absorb every latino or other immigrant that wants to have a better life.

This paragraph lacks a historical perspective that won't be gained by thinking harder. Go look at the old photographs and perhaps we'll realize that the best policy is to continue the present "no policy".

Chinatown in Honolulu has had the same "symptoms" of language & signs for at least 100 years (including rebuilding after immolation a century ago).

My FIL can take you block by block through the 1930s-50s Bronx explaining what immigrants lived in what neighborhoods by their signs, their language, and their cuisine. We're not talking Hispanics alone but Europeans and Asians as well. Of course to him the Bronx is clearly defined into "South Bronx" and "the good part of the South Bronx", so even among immigrant neighborhoods there's apparently a quality distinction.

My grandfather used to tell me the same type of immigrant stories of early 20th century Milford & Cincinnati.

Same thing for me growing up in 1960s-70s Pittsburgh.

In general the first immigrant generation spends their time trying to connect & bond with people of their culture through a shared celebration of their heritage. The second immigrant generation spends most of their time trying to shed their immigrant image. (Ever notice how the kids of immigrants tend to lose the accent in their spoken English?) The third generation spends their time trying to recover the ancestral culture that was foolishly discarded by their stupid parents.

The pattern's probably been this way for a centuries, ever since the Indians snookered those numskull furriners into buying Manhattan Island.

 

[JB]

This WSJ article is interesting and relevant.

 

[sgeeeee]

Secure the boarder? I don't think so. This is naive bravado talk. The ~1000 miles of boarder in the middle of inhospitable desert would be impossible to secure without the expenditure of tens of billiions of dollars a year. Hardly seems worth the effort to solve a problem we haven't even defined.

Make them immigrate legally? Our policies don't allow that. Although we apparently have plenty of jobs for these desperate, unskilled workers, we also have immigration quotas that make it nearly impossible for them to immigrate legally unless they have advanced degrees in business or engineering.

Prosecute the employers? If we could do this effectively, it would eventually stop the flow across the boarder. But we would have to make life without a job in the US as miserable as life without a job in Mexico before the flow stopped completely. I don't think we could actually effectively stop employers. I live in Mesa, AZ and I can travel less than a mile in any direction on any morning and find a parking lot full of workers ready to do lawn work, house maintenance, moving, . . . for a negotiated price. It's not big employers hiring these people. It's my neighbors, independent contractors, etc. I would guess that 90% of the dirt moved, wood painted, and furniture moved in Arizona is moved by illegal alliens. Prosecuting would be tough.

I do see what the problem is. The problem is that we have laws that don't make sense and can't be enforced. The solution is to change the laws to make it easier to be a legal alien than it is to be an illegal alien.

 

[Maximillion]

Toronto is the most Multi Cutural city in the world, differant areas have differant races in predomince, in some areas signs are in Greek, others in Chinese, no Spanish as they are not a large part of the population, but no big deal.

In most cases you can tell a person's heritage by where they live, differant groups prefer to live together or near a Mosque, others mix, no big deal.

We are all Immigrants, some just got here earlier than others.

 

[Cut-Throat]

CT.....for that matter, what does the elite upper middle class white gentleman really want?

A discussion on the topic that focuses on the facts, rather than fear and prejudice.

This WSJ article is interesting and relevant.

Good article JB!

 

[youbet]

Prosecute the employers?  Arizona is moved by illegal alliens.........  Prosecuting would be tough.

I'ts not just Arizona.  It's most everywhere.  I think prosecuting the greed-driven citizen employers would work (reduce employeement of illegals) if we wanted it to, but we don't really have the heart to do it.  To much greed.  We covet the "bargains."

The solution is to change the laws to make it easier to be a legal alien than it is to be an illegal alien.   

sgeeeee, we agree on this point.  While opportunities to have jobs filled or filled at lower costs exist, laws should allow the market to act globally and bring supply to fill the demand.  It's not just Hispanic and South and Central American folks involved either.  At the company I work for, millions of bux are wasted annually in obtaining work visas for software folks from Asia and Europe to come fill openings that otherwise go unfilled or cost too much to fill at USA salaries.  These same dollars could be used to provide plane tickets, housing, sign-on bonus' and all the rest to be sure the best software talent in the world resides right here!  And these are people that could be permanent, legal citizens, not work visa second class employees.

 

[youbet]

.

 

[Maximillion]

A novel approach would be to build more factories in Third World Countries, that way people could stay in their own country and earn a living, instead of sneaking into the U.S to earn one, but I forgot, that's called outsourcing and it costs American's jobs.

The flow will never be stopped, block one point, like water it will flow to another area,solve the problem, the flow will stop.

Easy to acquire Work Visas, renewable every two years as long as no Criminal Charges, NO CITIZENSHIP or Citizen Ship qualification, just a straight permit to work.

Work Permit periods may be extended after several shorter terms have qualified the Immigrant is no risk to the U.S Society.

Work permit conditional upon sponsorship of U.S. Citizen or Landed Immigrant, could be part of the process.

 

[Rustic23]

I do drive over 55, when I do, I expect to pay the penalty if caught, not be given amnisty.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Legal or illegal immigrants?
Is our country's needs any different now?
Does the fact that everybody except for a handful of natives came from somewhere else mean we should do now what we did then?

the arts part probably legal. i'd have to research ellis island records for details. the professionals legal through loop holes (snuck out of russia under an assumed name to palestine then some of the children sent to the u.s.a.).

while, as you know, you can't base future projections solely on past performance, it might be relatively safe to assume that if past immigration made this country as strong & creative as it is today, that today's immigration will not weaken or dull it into the future.

as the country today has about 300,000,000 people. a few million extra immigrants seems hardly even a handful.

Same thing for me growing up in 1960s-70s Pittsburgh.

and same thing just south of me in miami. a day there today is a day in latin america. the cuban, central & south american influences on architecture and use of colors are wonderful and i think indicative of even better contributions to be made.

 

[BarbaraAnne]

I think Cut Throat brings up some valid points about immigration.

One of the solutions in Texas needs to be an acknowledgement of the situation in terms of building the infrastructure now to support the influx of immigrants. It will take tax dollars to build additional medical facilities and schools to handle the immigrants and their families.  We need to be real about what that will take.  We also need to make sure that corporations who profit from cheap labor, pay their fair share of infrastructure costs and not leave it to the folks who pay the ever-increasing property taxes that many simply can't afford.

 

[youbet]

BarbaraAnn:

In this case, what's good for Texas applies to the rest of the country as well. Infrastructure needs to be implemented in all 50 states to accomodate immigrants from all parts of the world. States with low immigrant counts need to produce affirmative programs showing they can and will attract immigrants in proper proportion. It's a civil rights situation really. And that calls for a national, rather than state by state, response.

 

[BarbaraAnne]

Youbet, I absolutely agree with you, that all states need to get real and deal with this issue.  I was only focusing on Texas since it is a border state, and its major source of revenue is property taxes, which place the tax burden to fund the infrastructure too heavily on individuals and not on corporations and businesses, who pay very little presently in taxes (although the legislature is trying to change this  :)and yet profit significantly because of the massive availability of cheap immigrant  labor.

 

 

[youbet]

BarbaraAnne:

Darn, that's a dandy idea. Set up an effective system of issuing work permits to illegals. Enforce by disciplining employers in the same manner we discipline employers today who do not send withholding and SS taxes in. Step 1 = fines. Step 2 = jail. Then, tax the employers as a percentage of work permit payroll. The collected tax goes to fund immigrant supporting infrastructure. The infrastructure needs to be provided one way or another, why not focus the funding at those benefitting from the situation.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Heres the result of the "solution":

Billions to identify and eject existing illegal immigrants.

Billions to attempt to stop them from reentering, with weak results (see: "the war on drugs")

Collapse of a significant portion of our agricultural industry, construction industry, and people leaving the workforce in droves because they cant afford child care and home care at "retail" prices.

Terrorists still get in, because nobody has ever been able to effectively and complete seal their borders. We'll keep out the house keepers and fruit pickers, but all the bad guys have to do is wrap themselves in marijuana and get on the speed boat or airplane.

Lazy dirtbags that dont want to work will still sit at home with one less excuse for not working.

We'll all feel good about attempting to enforce a law.

I'm all for whacking the walmarts that brazenly hire and lock illegal immigrants into their stores at night to clean. The companies who "hire" fake employees by the thousands that are actually illegal immigrants.

But the majority of the work is being hired out by individuals and small businesses at price points that if raised, will simply result in all that work not being done as its no longer cost effective. Wow, what a problem and what a terrific benefit in solving it... :

 

[youbet]

Hmmmm..... If you're referring to the solution I suggested, you're not correct. I assume you're referring to one of the other posts, but I can't tell which one.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I was discussing in general to the topic., not responding to you at all.

To respond to your comments specifically, it looks like you want to create a costly bureaucracy that will end up being subverted, create a lot of fines, and add more people to our overcrowded jails for relatively victimless crimes. To what end?

That worked out great in the "war on drugs", among other things. Look at the billions we spent creating the homeland security bureaucracy that still hasnt done crap.

It seems like the "problem" is jobs/work related. There are a lot of people who are willing to risk life and limb to come here and work for peanuts doing stuff that either nobody wants to do, wants to do at a price that is reasonable and appropriate, or that is unfeasible to teach someone to do while paying them $20 an hour.

 

[youbet]

it looks like you want to create a costly bureaucracy that will end up being subverted,

No, not at all.

There are a lot of people who are willing to risk life and limb to come here and work for peanuts

Yep.  And a lot of highly skilled folks we can't get over here to do sophisticated work for less that citizens demand.  Engineering folks, medical folks, softheads, etc. 

The underground economy of illegals causes difficulities in providing needed services such as schooling and healthcare.  I's just like to see most of them identified and their employers taxed to provide funding for new schools, clinics and the like.  Why take this out on children and other disadvantaged folks?