illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

[Cut-Throat]

Warning - CHP!



This is a serious question! - I have heard a few folks basically say 'send them all back' etc. etc.

Is this what is really wanted? Do we really want the millions doing menial jobs and paying taxes to just go back to Mexico, Central America etc. etc. ?

Can someone articulate the 'knee jerk reaction' opinion for me. Because frankly, I really don't have an opinion, because I really don't know enough to have one.

I do know that a lot of world economies like Japan, Germany, Italy have suffered when a large percentage of their workforce retired and they no longer had the labor and tax base to grow.

So tell me what the 'Joe Six Pack' opinion on this issue is? - Other than 'Those illegals are stealing all our jobs and collecting welfare and getting free schooling and medical care' - because this statement is all emotion and few facts.

So what does the Basic "Red State, Lower middle Class white dude' really want? - Because Really - I have no idea?

 

[HFWR]

You talkin' to me...

Immigration has been and is the lifeblood of this country. Land of opportunity, home of the free, etc., still has meaning to many...

One red-neck's opinion... 8)

 

[OldAgePensioner]

CT,
I worked in CA for years, in Europe, in Australia and lived in Chicago.  Immigrants were everywhere.  Now there was no way to tell legal from illegal but one thing was clear, they are no different from the immigrants that have already got legalized.  Irish, Germans, Polish, etc of the early half of 20th century.

Big difference is these new immigrant groups are very visible, largely Spanish speaking and want to keep their language.  They want to change how the US treats immigration.

Big difference from the past.  Should be interesting.

My goal, free citizenship based on being beautiful, sexual, female, and inclined. Hey what can a poor boy do.?

 

[yakers]

Just my 2 cents but I think there is a valid distinction between legal and illegal immigration. 1) We have taken in a large number/% of the population and it is time to stop/slow & digest. 2) We no longer need unskilled labor. 3) if services and mfg goods are made more cheaply we can import them and not the labor here.4) The other country will not develop if their able/dynamic youth move here. Maybe Mexican agriculture would be more successful if the people and capital went there and we imported the food. 5) Our underemployed would get better work offers if the demand is great enough. Why do we feel entitled to cheap labor in our own country? How will we put in place policies to support a middle class?

 

[MasterBlaster]

Well I live in Southern California and see lots of legal and illegal immigrants on a daily basis.

You'd be amazed at what many of the cities here in SoCal have turned into. All of the signs are in spanish, nobody speaks english, no assimilation. It's like you were living in another country. If you live in Boston or the midwest you really have no idea of the magnitude of the immigration issue. We need to really think hard about what our policy will be and the long term implications of those policies. Clearly the present policy, which is no policy, is not serving us well. As immigration continues to accelerate we need to think whether we can absorb every latino or other immigrant that wants to have a better life.

Just looking around I beleive that there are many many more immigrants here than anyone knows (millions and millions). Before you make em all citizens just be sure that you have a good handle on what you are signing up to do and what the cost implications are to the country.

My personal opinion is that they should be allowed to stay cause they generally work hard and contribute. However if SS and medicare must be cut to me or if my taxes go up to support them then I say kick em' out.   Because of iimmigration, state and local budgets are strained to the breaking point paying for schools and medical for immigrants. How many more millions/tens of millions must come before we as a nation say - "That's enough, we can't absorb any more"

The other thing that I beleive in is that before we make em citizens that we require them to learn english and something about modern US culture and history.

 

[maddythebeagle]

Interesting points yakers. I think that we probably should be exporting some of these low paying manu. jobs overseas rather than bringing people here to do them. Some of these industries are make excess profits and letting society pay the social costs.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Just my 2 cents but I think there is a valid distinction between legal and illegal immigration. 1) We have taken in a large number/% of the population and it is time to stop/slow & digest. 2) We no longer need unskilled labor. 3) if services and mfg goods are made more cheaply we can import them and not the labor here.4) The other country will not develop if their able/dynamic youth move here. Maybe Mexican agriculture would be more successful if the people and capital went there and we imported the food. 5) Our underemployed would get better work offers if the demand is great enough. Why do we feel entitled to cheap labor in our own country? How will we put in place policies to support a middle class?

Well yeah, but what exactly are you saying should be done? - Most policies to support a Middle Class would be government regulation of business like minimum wage for example.

So what should the Government Do? That is my question?

 

[Cut-Throat]

Well I live in Southern California and see lots of legal and illegal immigrants on a daily basis.

You'd be amazed at what many of the cities here in SoCal have turned into. All of the signs are in spanish, nobody speaks english, no assimilation. It's like you were living in another country. If you live in Boston or the midwest you really have no idea of the magnitude of the immigration issue. We need to really think hard about what our policy will be and the long term implications of those policies. Clearly the present policy, which is no policy, is not serving us well. As immigration continues to accelerate we need to think whether we can absorb every latino or other immigrant that wants to have a better life.

Just looking around I beleive that there are many many more immigrants here than anyone knows (millions and millions). Before you make em all citizens just be sure that you have a good handle on what you are signing up to do and what the cost implications are to the country.

My personal opinion is that they should be allowed to stay cause they generally work hard and contribute. However if SS and medicare must be cut to me or if my taxes go up to support them then I say kick em' out.

The other thing that I beleive in is that before we make em citizens that we require them to learn english and something about modern US culture and history.

So you are recommending that The Government should "Think Hard" on this?

 

[Cut-Throat]

Interesting points yakers. I think that we probably should be exporting some of these low paying manu. jobs overseas rather than bringing people here to do them. Some of these industries are make excess profits and letting society pay the social costs.

Are you sure about this? - The facts that I've read is that there is no Social Cost - There is a Social Profit! - This is a mantra that a lot of people repeat, mostly without facts!

When you export the jobs, there are no income taxes collected, Social Security or medicare taxes collected? Also the income is not spent in this country. Is this what you'd really like?

 

[REWahoo]

So what does the Basic "Red State, Lower middle Class white dude' really want?

C-T, I think you need to:

1) Take a poll to see how many of the above defined 'dudes' are posting here, and
2) Have a couple more glasses of wine.

No way to know if you're getting an accurate answer unless you know who is responding to your question, right?

 

[MasterBlaster]

I'd turn it around to you and say...

Are you willing to pay more taxes have your SS and medicare cut (even more) and have less so that some immigrants can have a better life ?

 

[Cut-Throat]

The other thing that I beleive in is that before we make em citizens that we require them to learn english and something about modern US culture and history.

You mean how Immigrants built this country?

 

[Cut-Throat]

I'd turn it around to you and say...

Are you willing to pay more taxes have your SS and medicare cut (even more) and have less so that some immigrants can have a better life ?

Why do you believe this? - The facts say that this is not true. If they are working here, they will be paying your SS and Medicare?

So why do you believe an immigrant will cost you more money than a Baby born down the street?

Just wondering how you guys come up with this stuff?

 

[MasterBlaster]

You just like to argue.

 

[Outtahere]

If you don't think there are immigrants in Boston you're sadly mistaken. Spanish speaking people do all of the service jobs. As for what to do about the problem, I wish I had an answer. One thing I do know is creating new laws to deal with it won't help, heck they can't enforce the ones we have now, get that right then work on changing them.

If you are here illegally then you're breaking the law and you and the person that hired you (if your working) should be punished. I also believe that learning the language should be a requirement, heck they learn our monetary system pretty quickly.

 

[bpp]

My opinion, as a legal immigrant (to Japan) and erstwhile Blue Stater, is that illegals should be kicked out. If an increase in the labor/tax base is needed, then enlarge the quotas for legal entry. You could even kick out illegals and then let them back in legally, if needed to meet your numbers. But don't reward illegal entry.

Then again, not my planet monkeyboy, so I don't have a lot invested in the question, and my opinion probably doesn't count.

Bpp

 

[Cut-Throat]

You just like to argue.

No - I just asked you what you'd like our government to do. And then explain to us how that would make things better.

So far you told me they need to "Think Hard"

 

[samclem]

Well,

1) There are millions of folks who have followed the rules and are waiting, patiently and legally, in their home nations for permission to imigrate to the US. Many have been waiting for years. These folks have demonstrated a desire to live within the law. I think that is something we should reward/encourage. These folks should get first shot, before folks who have demonstrated that they do not respect our laws.

2) The fastest way to end the problem with illegal immigrants is to punish employers who hire them. That's easy to do, and when the jobs dry up, so will the flood of illegal immigrants.

3) We'd be better off without >>some<< of the low-skilled jobs--they have higher societal costs than they are worth. In other cases, ending the flood of illegal labor would drive up the wages for those who take the jobs legally. CT, I don't think this would require a higher minimum wage necessarily, just supply and demand.

4) We already have a guest worker program that works well in the cases where it has been used. Employers bring the folks here >without their families<, and they are housed by the employers, given medical care, then they are returned to their country of origin after a certain fixed period. They get paid a min wage (that is lower than US workers, but better than they can get at home). In cases where the industry can make the case that they can't compete globaly if they use higher-cost US labor, this is a good solution.

my 2 cents.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Ok, Sam your solution would be to punish business that hired illegals. What should the sentence be?

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

my ancestors came over in the late 1800s to escape tzarist russia. my mother's side became professionals and manufacturers. my father's side went into entertainment, producing a body of work that quickly became part of americana, and still famous generations later. this is work that would not have existed in russia. this is america that would not have existed without immigrants.

 

[yakers]

my ancestors came over in the late 1800s to escape tzarist russia. my mother's side became professionals and manufacturers. my father's side went into entertainment, producing a body of work that quickly became part of americana, and still famous generations later. this is work that would not have existed in russia. this is america that would not have existed without immigrants.

Legal or illegal immigrants?
Is our country's needs any different now?
Does the fact that everybody except for a handful of natives came from somewhere else mean we should do now what we did then?

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Can I ask again, with regards to the topic...

What problem are we trying to solve with all the discussion about immigration?

Lots and lots of solutions, but I still havent heard what the problem is yet.

During our recent 'immigrants day', all the house building stopped and the farms were deserted.

Presuming the "problem" is that these dang immigrants are taking all the jobs that english speaking white people wouldnt want to do for 4x the cost, and the people writing the checks wouldnt pay that much to have done, are we really worried about who cleans our walmarts when tons of 40-60k a year jobs doing tech support are being farmed out to workers in other countries?

To me thats worse...its a real job that real people actually WOULD do, the jobs provide a reasonable living wage, and all the money paid to those non-US countries is gone. 87% of the money paid to US based immigrant workers is spent back into the local economy.

Methinks we're long on solutions, short on problems, and ignoring a real problem in favor of solving one where the solution just sounds great on paper, but would suck hard if we implemented it...unless you like $4 oranges and $10 bags of walnuts and 20% higher build costs on subdivision homes...if you can even get the products or have the construction done.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Can I ask again, with regards to the topic...

What problem are we trying to solve with all the discussion about immigration?

Lots and lots of solutions, but I still havent heard what the problem is yet.

During our recent 'immigrants day', all the house building stopped and the farms were deserted.

Presuming the "problem" is that these dang immigrants are taking all the jobs that english speaking white people wouldnt want to do for 4x the cost, and the people writing the checks wouldnt pay that much to have done, are we really worried about who cleans our walmarts when tons of 40-60k a year jobs doing tech support are being farmed out to workers in other countries?

To me thats worse...its a real job that real people actually WOULD do, the jobs provide a reasonable living wage, and all the money paid to those non-US countries is gone. 87% of the money paid to US based immigrant workers is spent back into the local economy.

Methinks we're long on solutions, short on problems, and ignoring a real problem in favor of solving one where the solution just sounds great on paper, but would suck hard if we implemented it...unless you like $4 oranges and $10 bags of walnuts and 20% higher build costs on subdivision homes...if you can even get the products or have the construction done.

Well, I guess that's what I was asking at the start of this thread. The problem has always been defined as "Illegal Immigration" - I'm not exactly sure what problems this causes either, so I was merely asking what should we do about it and how would this make things better.

Because, I really don't have a clue! And believe it or not, this is one of the top issues currently in our country. No wonder Congress does not know what to do?

I'm not even hearing a ton of solutions, just a lot of bitching.

 

[Martha]

I know of people who have spouses trying to immigrate to the US and are still waiting after several years. Didn't Lex's spouse, a professional, have to struggle to immigrate? That is bothersome to me but I don't know if our illegal alien issues have anything to do with that problem.

I read about at least one study that illegal immigration does not appear to have a statistical significant effect on availability of low skilled jobs for Americans. But I haven't read the study and I don't know if there are any contrary studies. I also don't know if wages are suppressed as a result of illegal aliens taking very low paying jobs.

I don't know what the costs are of illegal immigration and if those costs are outweighed by benefits. I don't know if illegal immigration from Mexico is bad or good for Mexico.

I know so little about the issues that I have no opinion.

My sister's step daughter from Bolivia has very strong feelings about these issues. She told me that proposed legislation would make it a felony for anyone to help an illegal alien. I know some people who arguably help illegal aliens. I don't know what the proposed legislation says.

I do know someone who told me that the day the illegal aliens were going to take off from work that the US should take that opportunity to "round them up."

 

[Rustic23]

It seems to me there are two well definable problems.

1. Respect for the law. It is “illegal immigration”. We should either enforce the law as it is or change it. When we disregard a law, be it the 55 mile an hour speed limit or unlawful immigration, we cheapen all law.
2. There are currently so many folks coming across the border it is impossible to tell the good illegal immigrant from those that may wish us harm. Every country has the right to know who is coming into the country. The current situation, IMO is not sustainable.

It seems that what is caught up in the politics of the current situation is citizenship for those that have already violated the law. The issue is not if we need immigrant labor. The politics of the arguments is one party hopes to add to it’s voter base, while the other is trying to keep that from happening.