illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

[TomSimpsonAZ]

People who work harder than me are definitely going to make it harder to be a fat lazy american without being noticed.

Sometimes when I get bored I like to compare my 5th or 6th generation financial resources with a 1st generation mexican american and laugh at their poorness, silly bastards, muhahaha.


Uh, yea, so anyways, let them in, leave them alone, and do some research into how beneficial they are to the economy. There is a reason why many economists are libertarian.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

No, not at all.

Well, thats what will end up happening. Turn any "problem" over to the government to solve, you end up with a lot of overhead, bureaucracy and nothing better (usually worse) than what you started with. You start getting immigration going on 'tracking' and 'legitimizing' illegal labor pools, its going to be 'git yer waders on' time...

Yep. And a lot of highly skilled folks we can't get over here to do sophisticated work for less that citizens demand. Engineering folks, medical folks, softheads, etc.

Ok, thats right, but what the heck does that have to do with illegal immigration and the "solutions" to it?

The underground economy of illegals causes difficulities in providing needed services such as schooling and healthcare. I's just like to see most of them identified and their employers taxed to provide funding for new schools, clinics and the like.

Care to elaborate? I'm unfamiliar with the problems illegal immigrants cause in the school and healthcare areas. I dont mean to say that i'm ignorant of the issues, rather that I've familiarized myself with them and found the bugaboo immigrant school/health care issues to, at best, lack substance.

 

[Spanky]

What illegal immigration costs you:
<http://www.augustafreepress.com/stories/storyReader$39399>

Dobbs: Radical groups taking control of immigrant movement
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/dobbs.immigrantprotests/index.html?section=cnn_latest

According to these links, business owners love illegal workers because they keep costs down but also depress wages for the American workers. In addition, the undocumented workers incur hidden costs to society since they need health care, education and social services. The articles do not mention who is paying for these needed services. I assume it is implied that the tax payers are footing the bill, granted the undocumented workers also pay some taxes.

 

[youbet]

Well, thats what will end up happening. 

  Care to elaborate?  Your statement makes no sense.

Ok, thats right, but what the heck does that have to do with illegal immigration and the "solutions" to it?
Care to elaborate?

Sure.  When we establish some procedure for inbound immigration, we need to include making quick citizenship for engineering, medical and software professionals quick and automatic.

  I'm unfamiliar with the problems illegal immigrants cause in the school and healthcare areas. 

  They arrive at emergency rooms and schools requiring resources and we haven't planned for the resources to be there.  It's not really complicated.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Sure. You hand something over to the government to "manage" and you end up with no management and a few billion in overhead. See "TSA" for reference.

No arguments on improving integration of immigrant professionals.

I wont drag up the never ending "illegal immigants cost us tons of money in hospitals and schools" threads. Do a search. Hospitals and schools spend more on paper than they do on illegal immigrant health care and schooling. Its a red herring. I did a full analysis when some guy who thought nazi zombie web sites was a great source of data brought it up last year.

 

[youbet]

So, you're home schooling or private schooling your son?

 

[bpp]

Hi CFB,

I don't know if these are the most minute aspects of your post, so if I have erred bear with me.  And as I have said, I don't really have a stake in this issue.

Heres the result of the "solution":

Billions to identify and eject existing illegal immigrants.

Billions to attempt to stop them from reentering, with weak results (see: "the war on drugs")

I suggested kicking 'em out, so in response to your cost estimate, maybe I would suggest that a huge program would not be needed.  Institute spot checks of employers' records, and make the penalties severe when someone gets caught.  For example, Japan imposes immediate deportation and a 5 year ban on re-entry when an illegal immigrant is found.  Of course, Japan doesn't have a large, porous border like the US has, so something may get lost in the translation.  But it shouldn't cost tremendous amounts to do spot checks of employers' records.  And at least impose the cost of having to sneak across again on illegals.

Collapse of a significant portion of our agricultural industry, construction industry, and people leaving the workforce in droves because they cant afford child care and home care at "retail" prices.

I also suggested raising the quotas if you need cheap labor, so you could avoid some of this pain by increasing the number of legal workers.  Why do you need illegal workers for these jobs?  And if you do need them to be illegal in order to save money, do you really feel it is right to exploit (self-admitted loaded phrase alert) people like that to save a few cents on the price of an orange?

I'm all for whacking the walmarts that brazenly hire and lock illegal immigrants into their stores at night to clean.  The companies who "hire" fake employees by the thousands that are actually illegal immigrants.

But the majority of the work is being hired out by individuals and small businesses at price points that if raised, will simply result in all that work not being done as its no longer cost effective.  Wow, what a problem and what a terrific benefit in solving it... :

I can see what you're saying here (and will take you at your word that individuals are the main employers -- seems mind-boggling to me), but I still can't help but thinking that institutionalizing an illegal underclass is not a good thing.  It seems hypocritical somehow.  And erodes what little respect people may have for the law as it is.

Bpp

 

[Cut-Throat]

For example, Japan imposes immediate deportation and a 5 year ban on re-entry when an illegal immigrant is found. Of course, Japan doesn't have a large, porous border like the US has,

Do you think that this could be a factor in why their economy has been in the toilet for the last 15 years? - Again, what 'problem' are we trying to solve. If it's law for the sake of law, then maybe the law is the 'problem'.

 

[kathyet]

Everyone keeps saying immigrants, well there is a difference between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants. If the difference isn't understood well.....

This country loves to make new laws why don't they enforce the laws we already have. If you hire illegal's you get a big penalty and jail time. This law has been on the books for years what good  is it if it isn't used.

If your "illegal" you go to jail..why does the tax payer have to pay to send them home? If they want to do the jobs no one here does then put them to work. They can clean up the roads, and or whatever, they can even help build new jials, while there in jail, for a small fee of course. No $15.00 : dollars an hour that no one here wants to make. This pay will be used to purchase their one way ticket home.

Since when are "illegals" entiled to free health care, free education, and free anything that is provided to a U.S. citizen..after all what is good for us should be good for them we don't get anything free and if we do it is our "right" as an American citizen. It seems they are afforded much more than we are. They even get better treatment than some of our Veterens.

I am tired of their demands...they need to go back from where they came from and demand those changes there and force a  change  to the things that drove them here to begin with...I would like to see them protest and yell and scream for their "rights" in their home country. Why aren't they doing that

I don't know what the big deal is about "illegal" is "illegal".

Kathyet

 

[Rustic23]

Kathyet... I agree. "illegal" is "illegal" Politicians have done a good job of confusing the issue.

By the way, I heard an estimate that there were 300,000 illegal immigrants in Houston. I heard that when I was sitting on I-10 going 3 miles an hour, and wondered what 300,000 fewer folks would do to our traffic flow. And yes, illegal immigrants in Texas drive cars! In fact what would 11,000,000 fewer illegal immigrants do to our freeway system, most likely nothing in Montana, but ask a LA commuter.

 

[kathyet]

Rustic 23


By the way, I heard an estimate that there were 300,000 illegal immigrants in Houston. I heard that when I was sitting on I-10 going 3 miles an hour, and wondered what 300,000 fewer folks would do to our traffic flow. And yes, illegal immigrants in Texas drive cars! In fact what would 11,000,000 fewer illegal immigrants do to our freeway system, most likely nothing in Montana, but ask a LA commuter.



I think your right! Also I was out shopping Monday, it was a good day on the roads no traffic. I bet if it is checked out there were fewer accidents and hit and runs as well.

Kathyet

 

[Cut-Throat]

I don't know what the big deal is about "illegal" is "illegal".

Kathyet

So you're saying that the law is the 'problem'?

 

[kathyet]

So you're saying that the law is the 'problem'?


NO the inforcement of the law is the problem and has been for 20 years or more.

Kathyet

 

[youbet]

Nicely said Bpp!

There seems to be some misunderstandings about what others are saying passing back and forth on this thread.

Some seem to feel that instituting a process whereby guests in our nation would be recognized and documented means doing something negative to current Mexican undocumented workers.  Actually, for most of us, at least for me, it means handling the situation in a prescribed manner rather than with a "wink." And it means not exploiting people.

While its true that Latinos make up most of the undocumented population, there is a sizable minority of others. Plus a long waiting list of others wishing permission to enter.  Procedures we institute for Latino "cheap labor" will/should apply to doctors from India, engineers from Taiwan, softheads from Pakistan, tradesmen from Ireland, etc.

Many have mentioned the fact that this country is made up of immigrants and praised the rich cultural diversity we all benefit from.  True.  But other waves of immigration were predominantly "legal."  When millions of Irish came to the USA, they passed through Ellis Island and followed a procedure to become citizens. When hate and discrimination raised their ugly heads ("no Irish need apply") their legal status provided the foundation for eventual integration into society and some economic parity.  Will Hispanics sneaking in and out under our current "wink-wink" sysem fare as well?

I detect a hint of disingenuousness with people who "can't see the problem" from their expensive homes, from their expensive vacations and hobbies, from their "white and FI" point of view.  Is the greed-driven thrill of finding a "human bargain" when the Hispanic landscaper arrives at your home to manicure your lawn for little compensation so great you can't see the inequities crying out for relief?  

 

[Cut-Throat]

So you're saying that the law is the 'problem'?[


NO the inforcement of the law is the problem and has been for 20 years or more.

Kathyet

So, how much extra taxes would you be willing to pay for total enforcement of this law?

And do you believe that the 'War on Drugs' is a working program? IOW - are we totally enforcing the 'Drug laws'?

 

[kathyet]

So, how much extra taxes would you be willing to pay for total enforcement of this law?

And do you believe that the 'War on Drugs' is a working program? IOW - are we totally enforcing the 'Drug laws'?



Taxes why, the answer isn't always to throw more tax money at a problem.

If the laws were enforced a long time ago we wouldn't be having the problem today on either issue. You tell me why drug enforcement isn't working.

But that's okay just keep winking on the issue's or giving out little slaps on the hands, kind of depends on who you are with that though.

As far as paying were all paying and paying dearly if not in taxes in other ways.

But all the retoric isn't going to change anything is it..after all it hasn't in all these years.

Kathyet

 

[youbet]

And do you believe that the 'War on Drugs' is a working program? IOW - are we totally enforcing the 'Drug laws'?

Are you satisfied with the level of drug law enforcement regarding selling drugs to children at or near schools?  If not, would you support, with your tax dollars, an effort to reduce this practice?

 

[Cut-Throat]

I am tired of their demands...they need to go back from where they came from and demand those changes there and force a change to the things that drove them here to begin with...I would like to see them protest and yell and scream for their "rights" in their home country.
Kathyet

Can you tell us, when they 'go back where they came from' - how this will make the united States a better country? - Please give us some good facts and data to back up your claims.

 

[justin]

Felicidades! Es el cinco de mayo!

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Between the veiled racism and the willingness to export opinions that are not in agreement with the facts, coupled with the knowledge that nothing on an internet discussion group will change anyones mind, i've decided to follow justins lead and give up and go buy a bottle of tequila and a bag of limes.

Just mark my words. Implement the sort of "immigration reform" thats being bandied about and enjoy the higher taxes and huge economic impacts. You'll have to enjoy those, because there will be no measurable benefits produced.

 

[justin]

...i've decided to follow justins lead and give up and go buy a bottle of tequila and a bag of limes.

Ven conmigo, amigo!

(glad I managed to stay out of this little discussion).

 

[Ginger]

Cut-Throat -
Great topic ---  major problems out here in Southern California.  Over utilization of hospital emergency rooms, school overcrowding, freeways are used to capacity, apartment overcrowding, increase of crime.   My parents were legal immigrants from Europe, they mastered the English language, never went on welfare or used government assistance.   There is no enforcement out here in California and the border gates are 'wide open.'
My best hope is that the children of the illegals become educated (on our dime) and productive members of our society down the line.

 

[sgeeeee]

. . . If it's law for the sake of law, then maybe the law is the 'problem'.

Hey. . . isn't that what I said.

Of course it's the law that is the problem. People are coming here because they can get paid an amount of money that is acceptable to them to do work. People are willing to pay them to do the work because they get the job done at a price that is acceptable to them. It's called the free market. An interesting point I've noticed is that some people have been spouting free market arguments and smaller government arguments everytime they needed to justify granting greater power to corporations. Now many of these same people seem to be most determined to establish a massive government infrastructure to purge our country of a labor source.

The only complication to this excellent example of the free market at work is that our immigration laws do not provide a way for this to happen legally.

So here are our options: 1) Build up a massive immagration enforcement organization and attempt to thwart the free market and global economy, or 2) Change the law to allow the free market forces to work and benefit from greater tax base.

Of course, if the underlying principle that drives your view is simply racism, then the answer changes considerably.

 

[sgeeeee]

Taxes why, the answer isn't always to throw more tax money at a problem.

If the laws were enforced a long time ago we wouldn't be having the problem today on either issue. You tell me why drug enforcement isn't working.

But that's okay just keep winking on the issue's or giving out little slaps on the hands, kind of depends on who you are with that though.

As far as paying were all paying and paying dearly if not in taxes in other ways.

But all the retoric isn't going to change anything is it..after all it hasn't in all these years.

Kathyet

If the law is not appropriate to the situation today, doesn't it make more sense to change the law than to mindlessly spend money to enforce it? The law will not let unskilled, manual laborers to immigrate legally, yet the country clearly needs this type of work. So we outlaw laborers and laborers are outlaws.

 

[BarbaraAnne]

Who is supposed to pay for the additional infrastructure needed when 20 million people are in the country and now need schooling for their children and healthcare and most likely food stamps, etc.?

How about solving THAT problem before we allow more exploited  labor into the country?  If they don't even make a living wage who subsidizes their needs? Taxpayers?