tough love -- college decisions

[Bamaman]

For us, it was college or we would be walking point in Vietnam by October. Youngsters fortunately don't have that negative motivation hanging over them.

I was a product of a big city state university with a really fine business school. I remember all the freshman engineering students--at least for the first semester. Second semester, they were Marketing majors.

I hate to tell you but your son already has developed free will. He may be a little distracted at age 18, but it doesn't mean maturity is not in his future.

My best friend went to one of those small, expensive Southern liberal arts colleges where 97% of graduates go to graduate school. Their average GPAs were very high and the students were smart. But their classes were 15 minutes longer, and nobody took more than 4 classes in any semester. They finished their semester a month sooner ane har a Mini-semester where they only took one course for 3 weeks.

I am a big believer that going away to a university is a rite of maturing and learning the social graces seldom seen in a community college. I was in a really good fraternity, and just about every "brother" has been very successful in business and in life. I never expected that would have been the case in 1972.

Let the boy start out in the University. As soon as graduating H.S., send him straight to Summer School to pickup a couple of core subjects. And when he gets into the Fall semester, limit his load to 13 hours per semester. And don't allow his Adviser to push 5 day a week calculus, Organic Chemistry and other terribly difficult subjects on him the same time. Pick up some electives that are not so time consuming.

When taking a difficult curriculum like engineering, it is best to take it slowly. And remember that very, very few college students have the temperament and drive to ever be an engineer.

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

Disclaimer: I teach computer science (full time) at a relatively large community college after working at a mega-corp for over thirty years (Software Development & I/T Architecture). The school has a good reputation and many students leverage guaranteed credit transfers, including to some very highly rated computer science programs at schools whose tuition top $50K/year (w/o room and board). I have had students I've taught who I would have hired in a nano-second to work on complex software or database projects.

As a result, I get to see first hand a vast variety of students. There are those who simply can't afford the 50K+ R&B freight of the four year school. There are those who are going back to school for a new career. There are those who are going to school after military service. There are those whose grades in high school were marginal or whose SAT scores weren't good enough. And yes, there are those going there because they don't know what to do (or whose parents want them to go to college even though the student doesn't really care).

What I see is that intelligence is a relatively minor factor in success at the college level. Yes, it can make a difference in how easily they grasp something, but I've found over the last 7+ years that it more a question of desire. If they want to do well, they will ask questions, meet me during office hours, and do everything they can to get their work in on time.

So if your son is there just "because", they will likely struggle. If they are there because they have a goal and are willing to work at it, they will succeed.

Someone earlier mentioned going to college and succeeding to avoid the draft. There is a lot of truth in this - in my case I didn't want to work in a mill or other job like that (I saw what years of construction work did to my father's body), and that was enough (for me at least) to not spend my time partying. This is an area where having "well to do" parents can be disadvantageous in that the work hard to do better drive might not be there.

One other thing - while I earn my living (not really as I was FI before I took the job), I think we (in the United States) do our children a disservice by essentially telling everyone that they need a four year college degree. It pushes students into degree's that don't get them anything but years of debt to repay. Instead, there are those out there that would do far better getting training for things like HVAC and Advanced Manufacturing Technology (e.g. CNC Milling etc). The vast majority (over 90%) of my school's AMT students have job offers in the field PRIOR to graduation.

 

[tmm99]

I am not understanding this "sending off to another country for college" thing, either. It's not like you're sending him off to a boarding school or a military school to teach him discipline or good studying habits...?

 

[socca]

We told him that around December we would decide his path.

Children have their decisions made for them. Adults make their own decisions.

As the parent of an adult, your role is to support your son's decisions, whatever they may be (to the extent to which you are able and willing). You may often not agree with your son's decisions, but that is a secondary issue.

The above is the theory. The problem is the application - some proto-adults are more childlike than adult. My inclination is to treat them as adults in the hope that they will grow to fill the shoes. This can, though, backfire on occasion.

No easy answers. Good luck!

 

[38Chevy454]

OK, as an engineer myself, your son will need to really have good study habits and desire to survive and graduate as ME. Especially for the math and the sciences. Most colleges use those courses to weed out the weaker students. For Engineering, it is math that knocks many out.

Here is my suggestion for your son that likes working with his hands and being more hands-on than technical theory: Look into Engineering Technology majors. They have a lot of the same engineering type classes, but tend to be less math and pure theory. More hands-on and situational problem solving kind of education. That might appeal to your son more and keep him motivated to graduation. I get it that he is smart, I started college with many kids that I thought were much smarter than me (although I was near top of my class 95th percentile or so) and those "smarter" kids in many cases could not handle being away from home and not having the structure. They either partied too much, got on academic probation and left, or gave up and went back home to have a fresh start at the junior college. I struggled my first year, not getting the grades I wanted, with mid 2.x grade point avg. By third year I was on dean's list and then maintained that until graduation. I also was a mostly self-supporting student. It came down to learning *how* and *what* to study. Once that was figured out life in college became a lot easier. I also got through most of the lower level general education BS courses and started the more technical real engineering courses by third year. One hint, take the GE courses as pass/fail grading; where your grade A/B/C gives you credit, and D/F is no credit. This does not affect your GPA, but gives you the credit for the GE course toward graduation. For me the GE stuff was dragging my GPA down. I would just study enough to get a C, and have the extra time for the courses that had to get a grade such as the support courses and major courses. Being that I had a 25 hour/week part-time work during school and full time breaks and summers (my J-O-B scholarship), I took 5 years to get through, including some co-op time. But graduated debt-free for most part; just some last quarter debt due to bad case of senioritis where I already had a real Engineer job lined up once graduated, and quit my part-time job.

Sorry for long post. Seriously look into the Eng Technology, it might be a great fit for your son.

 

[Luck_Club]

OK, as an engineer myself, your son will need to really have good study habits and desire to survive and graduate as ME. Especially for the math and the sciences. Most colleges use those courses to weed out the weaker students. For Engineering, it is math that knocks many out.

Here is my suggestion for your son that likes working with his hands and being more hands-on than technical theory: Look into Engineering Technology majors. They have a lot of the same engineering type classes, but tend to be less math and pure theory. More hands-on and situational problem solving kind of education. That might appeal to your son more and keep him motivated to graduation. I get it that he is smart, I started college with many kids that I thought were much smarter than me (although I was near top of my class 95th percentile or so) and those "smarter" kids in many cases could not handle being away from home and not having the structure. They either partied too much, got on academic probation and left, or gave up and went back home to have a fresh start at the junior college. I struggled my first year, not getting the grades I wanted, with mid 2.x grade point avg. By third year I was on dean's list and then maintained that until graduation. I also was a mostly self-supporting student. It came down to learning *how* and *what* to study. Once that was figured out life in college became a lot easier. I also got through most of the lower level general education BS courses and started the more technical real engineering courses by third year. One hint, take the GE courses as pass/fail grading; where your grade A/B/C gives you credit, and D/F is no credit. This does not affect your GPA, but gives you the credit for the GE course toward graduation. For me the GE stuff was dragging my GPA down. I would just study enough to get a C, and have the extra time for the courses that had to get a grade such as the support courses and major courses. Being that I had a 25 hour/week part-time work during school and full time breaks and summers (my J-O-B scholarship), I took 5 years to get through, including some co-op time. But graduated debt-free for most part; just some last quarter debt due to bad case of senioritis where I already had a real Engineer job lined up once graduated, and quit my part-time job.

Sorry for long post. Seriously look into the Eng Technology, it might be a great fit for your son.

Great tips and observations.

I know they weed out kids in engineering, based on his current "study skills" and ability to work the system, he would be one of them. This is what we are trying to protect him from happening. He does have the natural abilities and smarts, but lacks the social acumen (maturity) to work the system, which is why in a last ditch of influence we are tough loving him for his own good.

The hands on engineering is exactly what we found for him in Ireland. We did take a look for programs in the USA that had similar programs but they came at a very high price ie $40K-50K.

Pass fail is a great tip, and one I will pass on to both children. Thanks.

 

[Meadbh]

The hands on engineering is exactly what we found for him in Ireland. We did take a look for programs in the USA that had similar programs but they came at a very high price ie $40K-50K.

Im interested to know which institution it is. Is it Dublin Institute of Technology?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Institute_of_Technology

The Institutes of Technology were established in the 1960s-70s in recognition of the need. They have certainly contributed to the readiness of Irish young people to leap into technological careers and thrive. I have a relative who had difficulty in school due to dyslexia. He had to have special accommodation to do his exams on computer. He was accepted at DIT, worked hard, became a computer engineer, and now has a great career with a major utility. But he had two advantages over your son. (1) He is Irish. No foreign culture shock to deal with. (2) He chose this career path and really wanted to succeed.

 

[kevdude]

As someone else mentioned, I too wonder if the embarrassment of the CC is more your embarrassment than your son’s. As you’ve read many posters have had very good success with CC’s. My wife went the CC route, transferred to the local U (which is one of the most highly rated public U’s), and did quite well.

Why try and protect him, rather than letting him learn on his own? If he goes to the U and does not do that great, so be it. If he drops out and then decides later he wants to go back, good for him. Let him pay for a year, give him some requirements that if he meets, you’ll pick up the tab again.

If he chooses the CC route, after a year or two of good grades, and possibly having his AA, and assuming he does well, he can apply at other schools again.

 

[kevdude]

Oh, I almost forgot. I went to a school with a big reputation as a party school and was in a fraternity that was well known for drinking (I know, fraternity known for drinking, whodathought?) And here I am posting on an ER board after retiring at 49...

 

[Brat]

I agree that an engineering technology field is where your son fits best. My DS attended a degree granting maritime academy which was in all honesty academically rigorous - frankly I didn't think he had the academic skills to do it. He really wanted that as a career and choose the Deck Officer program and added a computer science component. Frankly their Engineering program would have been a better choice. It is a hands-on engineering program where the students learn to operate and repair a power plant either on a ship or on the shore. Those students have job offers at the end of their Sophomore year, demand is that high.

The maritime academies, which used to have the reputation as a school for slackers, are now selective. Students wear a uniform, underclassmen must get up each morning whether they have a class or not. Campus is dry as the American ships do not permit consuming alcohol and they do random drug testing.

The program in Ireland sounds like a good fit for his interests. Ireland has built a skilled workforce for high tech.

Unless you can find a program state-side that offers hands-on engineering I would take him to look at the Dublin school to see if their program clicks for him.

 

[Meadbh]

Im interested to know which institution it is. Is it Dublin Institute of Technology?

OK, so not that one. But probably equally worthy. The website shows students having work placements, which is a good thing.

 

[Luck_Club]

I agree that an engineering technology field is where your son fits best. My DS attended a degree granting maritime academy which was in all honesty academically rigorous - frankly I didn't think he had the academic skills to do it. He really wanted that as a career and choose the Deck Officer program and added a computer science component. Frankly their Engineering program would have been a better choice. It is a hands-on engineering program where the students learn to operate and repair a power plant either on a ship or on the shore. Those students have job offers at the end of their Sophomore year, demand is that high.

The maritime academies, which used to have the reputation as a school for slackers, are now selective. Students wear a uniform, underclassmen must get up each morning whether they have a class or not. Campus is dry as the American ships do not permit consuming alcohol and they do random drug testing.

The program in Ireland sounds like a good fit for his interests. Ireland has built a skilled workforce for high tech.

Unless you can find a program state-side that offers hands-on engineering I would take him to look at the Dublin school to see if their program clicks for him.

Great tip on the maritime academy. We have one fairly close to us and will check it out. We plan to visit the school in Ireland at the end of the month. This trip is mainly to assimilate him with the surroundings. It is literally a direct flight and 1 bus ride to the school.

The CC route isn't an embarrassment for me. I went to two during my college career, so am personally familiar with the pluses and minuses of their offerings. The one available to us is one where I attended on multiple occasions. The teaching quality can be poor, and have the potential to crush dreams through their incompetency.

Short story:
After getting my degree, I attended to brush up on some skills I was lacking. Took two classes one teacher was great, the other was terrible. In a room of night students this teacher literally read out of the book in front of the class as his lectures. The same teacher would make his entire test on the small details of the sections, having no questions on the broad concepts. Then he would berate the class and have to scale up all the tests.

So that is what I'm trying to avoid for my son who lacks maturity and academic confidence to overcome such destructive teaching.

 

[ivinsfan]

So the reason for the rule he must spend 44 hours a week out of the house, is to protect him from the possible incompetent teachers in the local CC....?


He lacks maturity and academic confidence so the only option YOU really want is to send him thousands of miles away to an unknown quantity.

Are you aware of how many.. academically adjusted, bright, well motivated kids switch majors and career plans once they get a year or two of college under their belts? I venture to say that more then a few engineering majors switch out once they get an understanding of the nature of the job and the difficulty of the courses.

I'll throw an idea out there for you, let him try the local uni and perhaps encourage him to consider an option in the business field as a starting point. That's a basic grounding in how the real world works no one ever went wrong with a year or two of business classes.

What a you seeing in your son that makes you think he will flourish thousands of miles away from home, friends and family in an academic setting? He is already resisting your attempts to plan his future. In fact, you say you realized early on he might be lagging behind his peers, you can't suddenly make that fact go away.

 

[LOL!]

If this was my child, they would be getting a job and not going to college. A nice retail job or working at a car wash or joining the military would be what I would recommend. Those jobs might also be the same result of forcing a young adult to waste 4 years in college where they don't do well. So why waste 4 years or would it be 5 years?

 

[ivinsfan]

If this was my child, they would be getting a job and not going to college. A nice retail job or working at a car wash or joining the military would be what I would recommend. Those jobs might also be the same result of forcing a young adult to waste 4 years in college where they don't do well. So why waste 4 years or would it be 5 years?

It's a question of wasted time and money too, but IMO the biggest thing is starting off as an 18 year old and struggling to fit in where your parents decided you needed to fit. That can crush even a strong kid and leave them feeling like failures and disappointments to their parents. The odds of this ending well aren't good.

 

[FIREmenow]

We ran into a similar thing with our son at the end of high-school. We realized that "pushing" anything was quickly doing more damage that it was helping. We put together some "if you're living in our house" rules and put them in front of him and LET HIM DECIDE. We were prepared for lots of "falling down" - which never happened.

In order to live in our house, you must be doing one of the following:

1. Working a minimum 30hrs per week contributing $xxx/month to household
   
2. Volunteering at a credible organization a minimum 30hrs per week and continuously looking for a job (proof)
   
3. Going to school full time
   * GPA 3.0-4.0 free-ride, fully paid
   * GPA 2.0-3.0 Paid 50%
   * GPA < 2.0 Self-funded
   
4. Going to school part time
   Must be also working minimum of 20hrs per week - no household contributions required
   * GPA 3.0-4.0 free-ride, fully paid
   * GPA 2.0-3.0 Paid 50%
   * GPA < 2.0 Self-funded
   
5. Not live in our house - will have 120% love and support, but no financial help.

 

[MRG]

It's a question of wasted time and money too, but IMO the biggest thing is starting off as an 18 year old and struggling to fit in where your parents decided you needed to fit. That can crush even a strong kid and leave them feeling like failures and disappointments to their parents. The odds of this ending well aren't good.

+1

I spent a well needed 7 years attending the school of hard knocks. Best education I could have received.

Nothing builds motivation like being hungry, wet, cold, and filthy.

 

[Brat]

Here is a video of the program I spoke of, keep in mind that they do not admit 1/3 of their applicants:

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

It's a question of wasted time and money too, but IMO the biggest thing is starting off as an 18 year old and struggling to fit in where your parents decided you needed to fit. That can crush even a strong kid and leave them feeling like failures and disappointments to their parents. The odds of this ending well aren't good.

+1. The desire to buckle down and do the work necessary to succeed needs to come from within.

Again, it's ironic coming from me as I earn my living teaching at the college level to suggest that not all are best served by college. Some are, some are eventually, and some are not. We as parents (I have a teen aged child) want what is best for our children -- but the issue is what we think is best isn't necessarily what is best or may not work for them. They need to work it out for themselves.

As an aside, one of the reasons I am working this second career is that I had reservations of just being 'retired' while my child was young (I retired from mega-corp when my child just turned eight).

 

[steady saver]

"I would recommend abilities testing. What is he naturally good at? We learned our son did not have natural ability in engineering, though this is what he wanted to pursue in college (and was not successful). Had we known this before college, path would have been different. And example is Johnson-O'Connor Research, in several cities. This was over 2 days. Well worth the $600-700. Other ones are out there."


I agree with the Johnson-O'Connor testing. Well worth it. My son just did that and he has a semester left of college! Just reinforced things for him but also a confidence boost.
I think your son needs some skin in the game along with support. He should pick what he does, but then you also get to pick what you pay for. No right answer, obviously, but you need to decide your boundaries and stick to them. There should be something on his end of the bargain...keeping up a certain GPA, paying part of the tab...something.
Johnson O'Connor testing is a good place to start. Level the playing field for all of you...

 

[North Texas Cajun]

Have him join the service. It will give him time to mature, get money for college and possibly set him up with a great career.

Senator,

I agree completely. No job or program of study forces a kid to grow up as well as a couple of years of military service. It worked for me and for others I knew well. The downside, for the kid, of course, is that he could lose a limb or a life. The downside for the parents is that they will no longer be able to control their kid’s life - which is also an upside for the kid.

 

[Katsmeow]

A lot of it is social maturity, and we look at Ireland as a new beginning. Where as at the CC he wouldn't have the same need or opportunity to build social networks.

The CC option though fine, would be a huge embarrassment for him, and do nothing to push him to develop more social skills hence the time out of the house requirement.

I don't get any of this. Why can't he build social networks at CC? Why can't he develop social skills at CC? My son did both.

I had a son who was highly gifted with ADHD. He graduated high school early and started CC at 16.

CC was great for development of social skills and social networks. He is 23 now (graduated with a B.S. in computer science). He is still friends with the group of people he met in community college. They aren't his only friends. He met friends at the university when he transferred. He has met friends elsewhere. But, he absolutely developed social networks at the CC.

As far as the embarrassment thing -- there was nothing embarrassing about DS going to CC. And, honestly, I think I would have sent him there in any event. His credits were fully transferable to the state university and it never made sense to me to pay for a state university for the basic classes. I think he got better instruction at the CC than he would have gotten at the university and for less money.

That said -- if your son wants to attend a local state university and leave at home while doing it and you can afford it, I don't necessarily see a reason to force him to go to CC. You could send him to the local university and set a criteria for what kind of grades he had to make to stay there for the next semester.

Addressing a few other thoughts:
ADHD - Tested, and no. He is actually quite bright, but not applying what he has

Not quite sure what to make of this either. It almost sounds like you are saying that brightness is incompatible with having ADHD. My son had significant ADHD. Very clear cut. He is also highly gifted. He graduated high school at 15. And, no, he didn't always apply all of his abilities in part because of his ADHD.

How old was your son when he was evaluated? Was the evaluator family with gifted kids and ADHD? Some gifted kids with ADHD just look bright and the ADHD diagnosis gets missed. I might consider having another evalution with someone who specifically works with the bright population.

Someone else mentioned Johnson O'Connor. I recommend that tested. DS changed his major multiple times in college. He only really settled into computer science after his Johnson O'Connor testing. I would highly recommend it, particularly for a kid who is interested in a field that requires a very specific set of talents.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

What kids are like at 17 or 18 really isn't their destiny. Their brains are still growing. I had to go to parent - teacher meetings over one of our kids not turning in homework in high school. But the same kid in college became an A & B grade, hardworking student and after college a responsible employee with a bright future ahead.

Tough love seems to me something parents usually use with kids with issues like drinking or truancy problems, not for C grades.

 

[Luck_Club]

Here is a video of the program I spoke of, keep in mind that they do not admit 1/3 of their applicants:

I'm surprised to see a wind tunnel at the school. Looks good thanks for the tips.

Many on this board once again have opened my eyes to other possibilities I didn't see before, thanks. Including a fair number saying to let him have the Uni experience and then crack down later if needed.

Though it is difficult to fully cover all the dynamics of the situation over a chat board, I can see many have concerns I'm being over bearing and forcing this upon him for my own self interest. I want to assure everyone that is not the case.

I truly am seeking to give him the best start possible in a very competitive dog eat dog world. If that means I have to invest in two freshmen years I'm willing to do that. If it means allowing him to try to rise to the occasion at Uni, and then say if he fails he is on his own, not so much. Especially when as his parents we see he isn't ready, hence the gap year that won't negatively impact his chance to have the freshman experience.

Testing for learning difficulties, learning style & ADD was done again this past fall. The findings from that testing revealed a few things about learning style which is helping to shape the effort to start him off right. Some of the findings were no ADD, and very strong spacial recognition and manipulation abilities, auditory teaching is not a good approach, etc. Id rather support a decision where I know given his skills and abilities he is more likely to succeed than one where, as his parents, we see a high probability of failure. Thus setting him up to further reinforcing a negative narrative he has seen repeatedly.

When I started the thread I was seeking helpful personal stories from others that either supported or didn't support our position of A or B you decide C is off the table, to which I received some great input, thanks.

 

[mystang52]

I wish I knew about Maritime colleges when I got out of High School. I think my whole life would have been different.