tough love -- college decisions

[flintnational]

OP, my mother was a High School Counselor and had a Masters in the field. More than once I heard her state we expect all 18 year old kids to be ready to go off to college. But, they mature at different rates and the plan needs to allow for that development.

I would keep him around the house and go to the community college full time or a combination of college and work. Give him time to figure it out and mature. I like the overseas option, but would wait until he is a little more mature. He can always transfer to a "better" school after the first couple of years or then go overseas. Good luck. Kids are tough. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

If he likes hands on work, showing him degree and certificate options from community colleges on skilled trade jobs might also be a good fit.

 

[bizlady]

This is the time in his life that he learns to be self sufficient. I would let him goes where he wants, but with conditions if you foot the bill. Agreed GPA, full load of classes, he lives out of the house where he does his meals and laundry, and perhaps a part time job if he wants spending money. If he fails at those things, he is not motivated and on his own. If he succeeds, you both win.

 

[ivinsfan]

Looking for reassurance or corrective action.. My second child is graduating high school and college decision time is upon us. His grades were OK, but he still blows mid-terms or key projects pulling his entire grade down 1 letter. This results in about a 2.8 overall GPA

As a result of years of this pattern, he is now faced with limited choices for college and no scholarships. DW and I have debated holding him back every year since about 4th grade to allow him to mature and catch up to his peers. So here we stand facing our final influence, and have told him that despite getting into a few state schools in the middle of the heap, we will only support the community college, or a gap year overseas school.

The gap year foreign school is truly based on the belief that he isn't ready, and this is the best option for him. It would give him the year to rise to the occasion, and if he failed to get going give him another start the following year.

DW & I think that the overseas experience will make him more desirable to employers even if he comes back and enters a US institution in his second year. We also believe that if he doesn't like it and stay on for all 4 years that he will have a chance to apply and get into a higher level of school, maybe top 50. There are over 700 US companies with a presence in this country, including many of the big boys like Honeywell, J&J, & Medtronics to name a few. His time in country would elevate him as a desirable candidate for these companies in particular.

He is upset with us and though he liked the country when we visited is a bit apprehensive and doesn't want to go, preferring the local university (not the community college), which was his last choice when we started the application process. The local university has a low ranking in the country over all and is considered a party school by the locals, and had even made it into the #1 spot years ago according to US News.

We stacked the deck in favor of the overseas school including a requirement that he be out of the house for 44 hours a week if he chooses the community college route. For an INTG I'm sure this is painful, but the social piece is another reason we don't think he is ready.

So because we love our son and don't want to make him suffer, we are second guessing our tough love, which is forcing him out of his comfort zone, in the hopes it will spark the desire and drive to play the game.

So any thoughts about:
1) Will the overseas degree, assuming all four years, make him a more desirable candidate or hinder him?
2) Are we really ruining his life by forcing him to take a gap year if he comes back after a year?

1 your DS has OK grades but struggles with deadlines and tests. Has he ever been screened for ADHD problems?

2 You stand "facing your final influence". I assume you have discussed your displeasure with him missing deadlines and not so good grades..did that have any influence on him?

3 He has apparently been accepted to a local uni..which he wants to attend, but when "we" started the applications process it was has last choice. The we in this sentence is a red flag, he's the one going to school, not the 2 of you.

4.. you want to send him out of the country or to CC with a long list of requirements that he must meet in addition to learning better study habits.

5. you blithely say he is INTG and throw out the comment you are sure these rules will be painful to him but are for his own good. In fact this might be impossible for him to deal with in a constructive way. You're going to hold a stop-watch on him to be sure he hits his 44 hours a week? Comfort zone, I have niece who is INTG always has been and at 19 finally got a diagnosis of ADHD.

You are putting the cart before the horse and you want to "tough love" a kid who's only sin is a 2.5 GPA?...think about getting off his back, letting him go where he wants to go and showing some unconditional support realizing this is a huge transition for some 18 year olds. That's what you need to think about and not if an overseas degrees will make him a "more desirable candidate". He'll be facing enough pressure from the world at large, at 18 he doesn't need it from his parents.

 

[Bestwifeever]

....DW and I have debated holding him back every year since about 4th grade to allow him to mature and catch up to his peers....

Just curious: Why did you not choose to hold him back?

These forums are full of introverts like your son—community college and living at home seems the best choice. I know three young men who failed spectacularly at three different large state schools and were dragged home. One buckled down in CC and returned in a year to the state school, one never finished even an AA from a CC, and one took seven more years to get a BA (he went part time to CC and a small liberal arts school, living at home the whole time) before getting a pharmacy degree (a few more years, full time, out of state!).

Good luck to your son!

 

[f35phixer]

A few years in the military were the key to jump-starting adult life for me and many members of my family. Among other things, the military provides clear goals and instructions on how to achieve those goals. As an 18 year old, I didn't have to guess what was required for success. The military defined success as "X" and told me directly "The better you do X, the more successful you will be." After a few years of that external direction, a young person eventually will develop the maturity to define X for himself and the self-discipline to achieve it. Going to school after that experience is likely to be much more fulfilling and productive.

+1 +1 +1 +1 i am where i am now because of military training. I did not use VA to full advantage as far as post service schooling, but i am in a great place... I joined Navy, wonderful experience being a flight deck troubleshooter, seeing the world. Who knows, he could love it and want to stay in!!! If he does join, get schooling in the aviation side of whatever service he joins!!!!

 

[omni550]

I'm surprised that the few hiring people didn't see it as a positive to have lived over seas for some or all of their college.

I was a mechanical engineer and hiring supervisor at at Mega-Motors (MM). In my career, I worked with hundreds of international employees (mostly from China and India, a few from elsewhere, mostly Europe & Latin America, a few from Africa & Australia). Also, MM had many locations in other countries, so it was not unusual for domestic MM employees to have worked elsewhere for a time during their careers.

From a hiring perspective, I wouldn't have given any extra consideration to someone having gone overseas for college....especially an American going to school in Ireland for no apparent reason. That would have zero [positive] impact in my hiring decision.


Serious question: I'm curious why you're surprised that it's not viewed as a positive?

omni

 

[Montecfo]

Some important considerations

As the father of a son who is talented but I felt was not ready maturity-wise for away college, let me suggest the following:

1. Dramatic underperformance on tests may signal a medical issue such as attention deficit. This is a good time to eliminate that possibility.
2. I would recommend abilities testing. What is he naturally good at? We learned our son did not have natural ability in engineering, though this is what he wanted to pursue in college (and was not successful). Had we known this before college, path would have been different. And example is Johnson-O'Connor Research, in several cities. This was over 2 days. Well worth the $600-700. Other ones are out there.

So no shock, our son had ADD AND was pursuing the wrong path of study.

I felt he needed a gap year, but we decided he had "earned" the right to go to away college (he had good grades but we knew was capable of more).

He had one semester away and emerged with few usable credits. So then we wanted him to work. He did not want this so we settled on a compromise: work his way back to away college, through community college, which he paid for. So he went to CC for two years, lived at home, worked on breaks.

He earned his way back to away college and graduated. it took him a total of 5 years, but in that time we figured out he had ADD. Wish we had recognized that sooner.

He now has a great job aligned perfectly with his degree, is making great money and happy.

He has since questioned why we "let" him go to away college when he was not ready! he never complains about CC and having to pay. He embraced it.

 

[Aerides]

If he's a little immature, and an underachiever, then sending overseas would not get my vote. It's hard enough going away to college in the same country, away from home and most of your friends the first time - if you are ready for it. I like the concept of "tough love" but throwing someone in the deep end when you already know they aren't much of a swimmer... eh. (and i doubt any employer, when he's 22/23 and later, is going to give him a boost because he went to ireland for a year at 18 on what's clearly his parents dime - maybe making him look a little coddled and privileged even).

I far prefer the idea of keeping him local, at a community college, where you can continue to parent and give him that extra year he might have benefited from earlier on.

One thing that's missing from the OP - what does DS want to do? I don't mean which school ("where my friends are going duh") but major, career, goals post-school? By keeping him at home at a CC, you can help him fill in the blanks so that hopefully, a year from now, it's far more ready. Is there a chance he's better suited for a trade career vs. traditional college?

PS, I had a lovely 2.8 graduating HS GPA, still managed to half-scholarship myself 8 states away on SAT scores, and failed 2 classes first year spectacularly (i mean who can make it to their 9am class or that one after lunch...).... then did my 2nd year back at home at CC. Far better to do it the other way around I would imagine.

 

[Luck_Club]

Just curious: Why did you not choose to hold him back?

These forums are full of introverts like your son—community college and living at home seems the best choice. I know three young men who failed spectacularly at three different large state schools and were dragged home. One buckled down in CC and returned in a year to the state school, one never finished even an AA from a CC, and one took seven more years to get a BA (he went part time to CC and a small liberal arts school, living at home the whole time) before getting a pharmacy degree (a few more years, full time, out of state!).

Good luck to your son!

Every year we said well it will be to embarrassing to him, he is passing after all, etc. In other words we caved every year.

I've got a huge filter bias towards failing to progress. Brother was given chance after chance after chance to change. What this coddling got him was at 40+ is actually starting his 2nd week at McDonald's, after a 4-6 month out of work period, and my parents still supporting him more or less.

A couple of years ago now DW and I began talking about a gap year to mature. Last June we told him we would evaluate his actions, and the options were laid out in front of him, gap year, work, CC or best University. We told him that around December we would decide his path. He continued to not spark so to speak. We had to drive the application process. We still saw grade drops. etc

The CC option though fine, would be a huge embarrassment for him, and do nothing to push him to develop more social skills hence the time out of the house requirement.

Addressing a few other thoughts:
Military I would love it, but no support from DW.
ADHD - Tested, and no. He is actually quite bright, but not applying what he has
INTG-I thought it would be the proper term to describe a smart but shy and reserved person.
Again he doesn't want to attend the local University, it was just the only one to accept him for his major.

He could go to the local UNI, spark alive, and do great. But if he fails it will set in motion a path forward that would be much more difficult then either of the two options we are putting before him.

Our ultimate goal is to get him out of the house able to live on his own and not spring back because he is afraid to get out of his "social" comfort zone.

 

[Luck_Club]

Serious question: I'm curious why you're surprised that it's not viewed as a positive?

omni

I had read several studies on it as being viewed as a positive experience by CEO's and HR directors. Also I spoke with several customers who thought it would show great courage, adaptability, etc to have gone overseas to get a degree.

 

[Maenad]

I would recommend abilities testing. What is he naturally good at? We learned our son did not have natural ability in engineering, though this is what he wanted to pursue in college (and was not successful). Had we known this before college, path would have been different. And example is Johnson-O'Connor Research, in several cities. This was over 2 days. Well worth the $600-700. Other ones are out there.

I think this is an AWESOME idea. It may help inspire your son with his career options. I'd also add talking to adults in the career(s) he's thinking of pursuing, so he has a good idea of what it will take in terms of schooling/training and what work is actually like.

 

[joeea]

A couple of years ago now DW and I began talking about a gap year to mature. Last June we told him we would evaluate his actions, and the options were laid out in front of him, gap year, work, CC or best University. We told him that around December we would decide his path.

I see that you and your wife are making the decision about his path.
But I don't see anything about your son's own decisions.

If he's not already, your son will soon be an adult. He will then be able to do what he wants whether you agree with it or not. You don't get to decide an adult's path.

I'd urge you to work with your son, encourage him to make his own decisions, and support him as best you can.

That doesn't mean you need to fund his life choices. But ultimately they are his decisions to make, not yours. You can explore possibilities with him. You can make suggestions. But trying to force your decision on someone who doesn't agree is a bad idea.

Just my two cents worth...

The CC option though fine, would be a huge embarrassment for him

I'm guessing that it's you who would be embarrassed, rather than your son.

 

[sturbridge]

we would decide his path. He continued to not spark so to speak.

Do you see the irony of these 2 sentences together? You are deciding HIS path, and then he doesn't jump on board. No surprise. Someone who isn't into school per se, and you are forcing him to do more schooling. Someone who isn't into school, isn't going to be successful as an engineer.

What is wrong about working with his hands? He's clearly indicated in his actions that working just in his head isn't what HE wants to be doing.

 

[joeea]

I had read several studies on it as being viewed as a positive experience by CEO's and HR directors. Also I spoke with several customers who thought it would show great courage, adaptability, etc to have gone overseas to get a degree.

Perhaps it depends on the field of work your son eventually enters.

I was a hiring manager for many years in the software field. Studying in Ireland would never have made any difference at all. Being forced by parents to study overseas would have been a negative.

 

[Brat]

Agree with the ADD testing.

Perhaps you can find an employer in his field of interest where he can work, even as an 'office boy' to help him determine if this is truly his passion.

Work there during the summer before college. Encourage him to take the required courses at a CC, particularly classes that he might struggle with in college.. like English Composition. Rev up his math classes and take physical chemistry. Then apply to colleges that fit his academic needs. An engineer who struggled with English Comp is not unusual but one who struggles with math won't cut it.

When my DD attended Santa Clara University she commented during her Jr. year that a number of students entered from community colleges well prepared for advanced courses - and their parents saved a hunk of tuition money by doing so.

 

[Senator]

He is pretty confident he want to be a Mechanical Engineer, and shows the skills to make it happen. He doesn't really like school per say, but does like building things and has shown great work in his physics classes that require hands on projects.

He has a 2.8 GPA in HS and wants to be an engineer? He will have an awakening when he gets to college.

If not the military, try him in the trades instead.

 

[ReadySetGo]

It’s so hard being a parent. It sounds like you are making the decisions for your son. Is it possible that his lack of motivation is coming from a lack of control and a perception that he will not be able to meet your expectations? Maybe if he knows you believe he will find his way, and that you will support him (provide your boundaries), he will soar. It seems way too early to be worrying about an engineering degree and a big job in the future. That’s not where his head is at the moment. Most 18-year-old boys are thinking only about today. Hearing more from you, I don’t see any value in going to Ireland. It sounds like he is a great and capable kid, who is not making any seriously bad decisions or getting into trouble. With a long-term view that he really will be OK, it may be easier to let him figure it out with your love and support. That big gift will help him mature into an adult who can manage himself and his decisions.

 

[marinauser]

In my opinion, a community college is a waste of timee if someone truly wants to be an engineer. Engineering is not like liberal arts majors where you take a significant number of general classes. Most engineering programs start right in freshman year with a sequence of classes that have to be taken in the proper sequence. Has he been to a good engineering type program such as Rose-Hulman's Catapult program or those operated by other engineering colleges to actually understand what different types of engineers do in their careers? Would he be better off in a building trades type program for electrician, plumber, carpenter if he really likes working with his hands? Not many engineers are really hands on in a manufacturing process.

 

[nhcycling]

We felt our oldest wasn’t ready to go to university right after high school. She was bright, had okay grades but not too disciplined, too interested in fun! She did apply to, and was accepted to a few mediocre colleges. We had the serious talks and thought community college and a part time job, or work full time were the best options. She picked up a trade and worked full time for a few years, did very well. Then in her mid twenties decided she wanted something else; went to a great university and graduated top of her class with a BS in chemistry. She didn’t opt to go the PhD route and has a terrific job as a chemist.

My other two, different story. Great undergrad colleges, did well, one has her DPT and the other in 2nd year of med school.

They’re all different. Not everyone is college bound at 18. Let them find their own path.

 

[Montecfo]

OP-

I see you said he tested and no ADD. Good.

I would not do the international thing. I would do the abilities testing.

Then I would just do a straight up gap year. Start this summer. A nice blue collar job with lots of time to work hard, sweat, and think what you want to do with your life.

Or just whatever he can qualify for. Can take classes at CC if he desires.

MUCH better to do that now, and i think better than your other options.

 

[Walt34]

I think a year off to work entry level employment and grow up is a good idea. A college education will open many doors, but you have to want it.

That was my experience too. No kids here, but thinking about some relatives I can see the value of a gap year. And for me, just a six months gap made a huge difference in confidence, direction, and determination.

Gumby made a good point too about military service. Every person I know came out of the military very different from when they went in, and for the better. I realize that's not universal of course but that's what I saw. And you may not even have to pay for college, or he may discover a trade that he'd rather do.

 

[Breedlove]

I remember one of the counselors at my son's college saying "let your children make decisions and let them learn the results of the outcomes , they will not always make the best decisions but they will be learning life skills". Forgive me , but what does your son really want to do ? If he wants to be an Engineer he will find a way if it just a fleeting idea so what . Let him make his own decision . I learned from friends do not push your children to the schools or vocations that you as a parent want because at this age they will burn out. If you are looking at good colleges for a person that does not really show the drive you want consider a Christian College , something like a Concordia . Not a state school but still a good college .

 

[Meadbh]

Reading between the lines, it appears to this reader that your son’s talents may be in a hands-on trade rather than in academia. He may not even recognize this yet, as he is clearly being pushed towards attending university, where he may not do well.

I think the risks of sending him to Ireland outweigh any possible benefits (and I’m Irish). Third level education in Ireland is actually quite competitive for those who wish to succeed. He doesn’t sound like he is ready to apply himself to that extent. If he is not motivated to work hard, he may be tempted to party too much, which will lead to further failure.

I support the suggestion of getting an independent assessment of his aptitude for different careers. Then I suggest a Co-Op program for his gap year, one which will give him experience at a real job and possibly may spark his interest, while allowing him to mature one more year.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

One advantage we found with the CC is that it was good for our kids' self esteem. They went to a high school where many of the kids had parents with advanced degrees and pushed the kids to excel. All the kids can't get straight As in that kind of environment - the competition is too intense. A C student at a competitive high school might turn into straight A, top of the class kind of student at a CC or less competitive 4 year.