tough love -- college decisions

My younger sister has a son who is in his first year of college. They pushed him to go. He is very smart but socially shy and introverted. I believe he is studying engineering. He is doing fairly well after the 1st semester...only failed one class (English). Here is what I said to her after a rough Christmas break where he gave them some grief and said some hurtful things about wanting to "disengage" from them.

I'd have to say the hardest part of being a parent is stepping back and letting them fly. Sometimes they soar, sometimes their flight feathers haven't come in and they tumble to the ground, and sometimes they start out strong and then forget to flap their wings and end up on the ground. We are always there in the background to pick up the pieces - if they let us.

I think we as parents need to step back and let these young adults make their own decisions. Giving guidance and suggestions is fine but in the end, we need to let them test their wings. It is their life to live and be responsible for.

I have 2 adult daughters who both went to college. They each choose their field of study. I had different career paths mapped out in my head for each but they went their own way. Hardest thing I ever did was zip to my lips and let them make their own decisions. In the end, we can't live their lives for them...nor would I want that responsibility.
 
Luck_Club said:
I'm surprised to see a wind tunnel at the school. Looks good thanks for the tips.

Many on this board once again have opened my eyes to other possibilities I didn't see before, thanks. Including a fair number saying to let him have the Uni experience and then crack down later if needed.

Though it is difficult to fully cover all the dynamics of the situation over a chat board, I can see many have concerns I'm being over bearing and forcing this upon him for my own self interest. I want to assure everyone that is not the case.

I truly am seeking to give him the best start possible in a very competitive dog eat dog world. If that means I have to invest in two freshmen years I'm willing to do that. If it means allowing him to try to rise to the occasion at Uni, and then say if he fails he is on his own, not so much. Especially when as his parents we see he isn't ready, hence the gap year that won't negatively impact his chance to have the freshman experience.

Testing for learning difficulties, learning style & ADD was done again this past fall. The findings from that testing revealed a few things about learning style which is helping to shape the effort to start him off right. Some of the findings were no ADD, and very strong spacial recognition and manipulation abilities, auditory teaching is not a good approach, etc. Id rather support a decision where I know given his skills and abilities he is more likely to succeed than one where, as his parents, we see a high probability of failure. Thus setting him up to further reinforcing a negative narrative he has seen repeatedly.

When I started the thread I was seeking helpful personal stories from others that either supported or didn't support our position of A or B you decide C is off the table, to which I received some great input, thanks.
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Is their any signs your DS is depressed or has anxiety issues? That might bear looking into. If not, what does he like to do in his free time, is he socially active and busy?

Some kids can't slot in studying for tests and papers because they are so busy doing other they can't organize their time and some have an issue with not being comfortable studying or writing papers. Has your boy had a job?

I'm a person that is in the "overbearing" camp but certainly don't think you are working for your own self interest. I have a niece who at almost 21 is working part time in a local music store because she basically flunked herself out of CC. She was a little deficient in her math skills and needed to take several non-credit math classes to get up to college level math and continue to progress. She's a bright kid but got herself so worked up about "not being good enough" that she basically sat in class and berated herself for being dumb instead of focusing on the task at hand. It was simply a pass or fail class and she flunked repeatly until the whole situation overwhelmed her and she is no longer in school and thinks she is stupid.

My DN was under the care of a mental health specialist and had been since her senior year in high school. But no joy from that and no concrete improvement.

Do you have some sort of under the radar feeling that your son will struggle in the outside world? My DS did but kept making excuses or trying to find the perfect way to "help my DN" out of love and concern, but as a parent you are too close to the situation to think objectively.

Sigh, my DN always had anxiety and procrastination issues with school work, it always took her at least twice as long as the other kids to do things.
I suspected she would have trouble with these "remedial" math classes and suggested to my sis that perhaps she should hire a summer math tutor before college started to makes my DN more comfortable and confident when school started. That never happened as my sister said "Oh, she'll be fine"
 
A couple of thoughts..
- Good grades at a community college open doors. Why? Because while there are many statistic about average SAT scores and HS GPAs for any given college’s Freshmen class - little, if any, attention is paid to Transfer students.
- I keep reminding my college freshman son. “They wont even interview with less than a 3.4.”
- a 3.4 in basket weaving wont cut it either It has to be an employable education. Computer science, engineering nursing etc.

Don’t worry about pushing him a bit He’s not ready to make sound choices.
As to a year abroad but it has to be applicable to what he wants to do. My daughter had an internship in Australia where she worked on testing Java Script. She has a great job.
 
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FIREmenow said:
In order to live in our house, you must be doing one of the following:
  1. Working a minimum 30hrs per week contributing $xxx/month to household
  2. Volunteering at a credible organization a minimum 30hrs per week and continuously looking for a job (proof)
  3. Going to school full time
    * GPA 3.0-4.0 free-ride, fully paid
    * GPA 2.0-3.0 Paid 50%
    * GPA < 2.0 Self-funded
  4. Going to school part time
    Must be also working minimum of 20hrs per week - no household contributions required
    * GPA 3.0-4.0 free-ride, fully paid
    * GPA 2.0-3.0 Paid 50%
    * GPA < 2.0 Self-funded
  5. Not live in our house - will have 120% love and support, but no financial help.
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OK, I'll take #3. What's for dinner?
 
Luck_Club said:
Though it is difficult to fully cover all the dynamics of the situation over a chat board, I can see many have concerns I'm being over bearing and forcing this upon him for my own self interest. I want to assure everyone that is not the case.

I truly am seeking to give him the best start possible in a very competitive dog eat dog world. If that means I have to invest in two freshmen years I'm willing to do that. If it means allowing him to try to rise to the occasion at Uni, and then say if he fails he is on his own, not so much. Especially when as his parents we see he isn't ready, hence the gap year that won't negatively impact his chance to have the freshman experience.
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I do not in any way think you are being overbearing for your own self interest. I am sure you absolute are wanting what is right for your son. I also know that it is hard to give all the nuances in a post here and you know more about the details of the situation than we do.

I do feel that your view of CC is just not commensurate with what I saw for my own son and the value he got from CC. And, I have the benefit of knowing how it shook out over the years as he did successfully graduate from university with a computer science degree.

I did want to address your comment "If it means allowing him to try to rise to the occasion at Uni, and then say if he fails he is on his own, not so much. Especially when as his parents we see he isn't ready, hence the gap year that won't negatively impact his chance to have the freshman experience." I largely agree with you on this. DS wanted to go away to college before we thought he was ready to do that. We refused to fund that until he was able to prove that he could succeed at certain tasks living in our house (in his case it was manage his class deadlines, get himself up for school every day and take his medication regularly on his own -- once he did that for a semester we were willing to send him off to live at school).

I also wanted to address the issue of "if he fails." DS did well his first 3 semesters in CC in part because I helped him manage deadlines. His executive functioning wasn't great and without me at that point he would have been late turning in work, etc. Over that time, I had been gradually pulling back each semester having him manage more and more, by the third semester just checking in with him occasionally. So his 4th semester in CC, I left him to it entirely.

He made 3 Fs and one D. That was a bad moment. But, we didn't tell him he was on his own. We told him that if he failed any more classes that he would have to pay for the retake of the classes. We would not fund that. If he dropped a class because he didn't like it or was going to fail it we wouldn't pay for the retake of that either.

So, yes, he had a wasted semester. But, it was a huge wakeup call for him. He accepted responsibility for it entirely. He never failed another class in his entire college career. Despite the bad semester he was able to transfer to the University and did well there (well, enough to get into grad school later). So, we didn't give up. But, we made it clear he got one bad semester on our funds.
 
Let me start by saying this is intended as constructive feedback though it may sound sharply worded:


What a mess. There are so many red flags in your discussion below. Your son needs to be given room to make his own choices, with your 100% emotional support. [You let him know what sort of financial support is possible of course, but be consistent across choices]. News flash--he will make mistakes. Consider them him finding out about things his schools or his parents did not help him with in the past. Could some of this on his end or yours be due to your early retirement schedule posted in your description? Perhaps he just will miss his folks more than you realize?


Most guidance counselors are not able to add much to the conversation unless you have a superstar there. They just don't have the time with the kid and have little professional success to work on. There are exceptions but not very many.


I've worked in education on many levels for decades and the most motivated kids are those truly in charge of their future-both good and bad. So stop the parental ego trip you are on and let your son take some chances. It's not about you. It's about him. The good news is that getting away to any school of HIS choosing could be the best thing for him, even if that means a series of learning experiences that give him the maturity you say he needs.


Good luck to you both.
 
Helping kids navigate the next stage after high school felt like a lot of responsibility at the time because so much emphasis is placed on this being such an important decision. But there are many roads to Dublin and there is no one perfect choice. Additionally, it's hard to predict how the college experience will pan out. Some bumps in the road is not necessarily a bad thing.

I think having your kid be on board with the plan is vital. I suggested options, but my kids made the ultimate choice out of the viable options.

If your child is set on going away, have you considered letting him attend a summer session and take a couple of classes to see how he does? I like that choice as it can be less workload to ease in and gives a taste of being on his own.

Good luck.
 
Gumby said:
A few years in the military were the key to jump-starting adult life for me and many members of my family. Among other things, the military provides clear goals and instructions on how to achieve those goals. As an 18 year old, I didn't have to guess what was required for success. The military defined success as "X" and told me directly "The better you do X, the more successful you will be." After a few years of that external direction, a young person eventually will develop the maturity to define X for himself and the self-discipline to achieve it. Going to school after that experience is likely to be much more fulfilling and productive.
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+1

I learned my trade by going to Navy Nuclear Power School. At the time I did not know it would be more intense than subsequent BS Nuc Eng or commercial licensing - but fear of failure can be a great motivator.

OTOH, because of the middle east conflicts, I did not encourage DS to take that path when he was a HS grad. He was not really ready for the university challenge, but stayed with a public school 3 hours from home and graduated in 6 years. (Switched majors twice) We thought about and worried about him losing motivation for college with a skip year. His choice was to go off to university with CC as a backup. Our bargain was we would pay for living expenses - he paid tuition with scholarships, loans and work to have skin in the game. Now he is in med school on his own nickel with a doctorate in the balance. Things usually work out. Sometimes unconditional love and support can be a path forward. DD graduates in 3 months with degree in comp science. (one majors switch taking 5 years )
 
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I think the best a parent can do is to show our children programs that fit their skills and interests, let them look at the requirements for admission and set their goals. I put together a list of suitable schools for my son based on his interests and grades, the Academy was a late addition. That school was the first on our college visitation route: he took one look at the program, talked to admissions and told me to go no further.

Saved a lot of gas...
 
gayl said:
Just wondering : what does HE want?
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I'm curious about this too. I know you mentioned in your op that he reluctantly wants to go to the local university, but what does he really want to do? And what steps can he take to accomplish that?

BTW - I think this is an excellent topic and also think you are getting some excellent advice/comments. And I'm also in the camp that you are trying to look out for your son's best interest, while being a little overbearing. It makes me wonder how my wife an I will react when going through some of the same decisions with our son starting next year (he'll be a jr at that time and testing/looking at colleges, and our daughter in a few more years).
 
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kevdude said:
I'm curious about this too. I know you mentioned in your op that he reluctantly wants to go to the local university, but what does he really want to do? And what steps can he take to accomplish that?

BTW - I think this is an excellent topic and also think you are getting some excellent advice/comments. It makes me wonder how my wife an I will react when going through some of the same decisions with our son starting next year (he'll be a jr at that time and testing/looking at colleges, and our daughter in a few more years).
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Thanks I do think many struggle with this time period during the raising of their children.

It is easier to explain what he wants by saying what he doesn't want:
1) He doesn't want to go to the CC and live at home
2) He doesn't want to graduate from the local U, but transfer to a better school after a year or two.
3) He does want to go to college
4) He originally wanted to go to schools in ski country. (more difficult to get to and takes longer than Ireland)
5) He does want to study Engineering

This thread has had some excellent ideas and suggestions. Though the Ireland opportunity is unique to our situation, because we have local support. You could replace Ireland with a school near a relative, work for a relative or friend etc. The struggle remains the same. Knowingly send them into a situation with a high probability of failure, thus kicking the can down the road, or force them to do something that will allow them to mature increasing the probability of success.
 
Of course you can force them to go somewhere they don't want to go but you can't force them to give 100% towards success..that's the rub isn't it. I don't see a issue with number 2..engineering is a tough major and it will soon be clear if he's capable of it...
 
Kids who are newly adults are often unrealistic about things because they have never had to be realistic. So, they think all options are open or possible just because they want to be. The person who wants to go to a highly selective school, for example, without the grades and such to get in there.

Another issue can be focusing on the wrong thing. My daughter in high school used to talk about going to college and felt she "should" go to a 4 year college and get a B.A. because that was what most of the people she knew were doing.
She thought she "should" want that.

The reality is that she is an average student at best and has no academic interests at all. She hates reading and writing. She would hate any jobs that required that sort of thing. She was a perfect candidate for a certificate program at a CC. But, she had an idealized view of "college" and have a "college degree" that did not mesh with her interests and talents at all.

The point being that what your son wants to do may be very realistic for me, but may not. It may be what he will really like or it may not.

With my son -- who took 6 years to graduate college (switched majors several times -- in retrospect I tried to micromanage things too much. Early on it was appropriate (he was 16 when he started college). But, I think I did too much of it after the first couple of years.

With an 18 year old though if I was doing it again. I think I would simply say what I was willing to contribute financially and then tell him/her to figure it out. If he wanted to go to a school that was beyond what I was willing to pay (or where I felt he would not succeed) then I would tell him fine...but he had to figure out how to pay for it. I would be willing to give advice and suggestions if asked.

And, if he was willing to listen, if an option was not doable in a practical sense I would point that out. But, mostly I would let him stumble around a bit. The semester that I let DS fail ended up being good for him in the long run. He learned from that experience much more than he ever learned from me telling him what he needed to do in school. And, in the long run it didn't really make a difference beyond an extra semester in school.
 
Luck_Club said:
It is easier to explain what he wants by saying what he doesn't want:
1) He doesn't want to go to the CC and live at home
2) He doesn't want to graduate from the local U, but transfer to a better school after a year or two.
3) He does want to go to college
4) He originally wanted to go to schools in ski country. (more difficult to get to and takes longer than Ireland)
5) He does want to study Engineering
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In other words, he wants to get away from home. :) I am not saying that as a negative thing (although I did say it as a joke). It is a natural thing for a child and one of the thing that I find interesting about today's youth is that so many of them still live at home way beyond what I would have ever thought about.
 
Unsolicited or not advice: There is a window for independence in young adults--push him out of the nest and let him find his way. He seems to keep telling you he wants to study engineering in college, so maybe that's what he needs to try. If he fails, let him sort it out.
 
Lucky, I can appreciate your situation and points. Been through much of it personally going to school many years ago, and now guiding our daughter.

I am very much of the belief that it is specifically at this time when the parent needs to take control of the situation to prevent the child from potentially making a mistake that could negatively affect their career and remainder of their life. Whether it's $20k, $28k, or $40k or $50k a year for school, you do not want to get in to a situation where they start in one direction, then see it isn't working and have to alter - potentially wasting tens of thousands of dollars and the time, which cannot be regained.

What needs to happen is to come to some meeting of the minds and likely a compromise that addresses some of the child's desires, as well as incorporating much of what you personally know, having already lived through it and having a better grasp than the youngster.

I personally don't believe that the overseas school will provide any additional benefit as far as development now, or potential employment later. If you have some concern about his maturity, sending him overseas, even just for a year, will likely only compound the issue. That's just my view.

I think you should show some tough love and say how things have to go over the next year or two. If he's still a minor and/or depends on your financial support, at the end of the day, he actually doesn't have much choice - regardless of what he wants...which in itself is likely not etched in stone...merely what he thinks he wants, not having all the facts or having an understanding of the big picture.

I am a big proponent of the community college route for two years, while living at home, and potentially having a part-time job. The benefits are numerous and extensive. It will provide the time to mature a little, further develop appropriate habits/skills for college level studies, be significantly less expensive and allow him to build some savings. While living at home, you will be able to provide some additional structure to help in the transition to college level studies. At the end of the two years, no matter what comes next, he'll have that Associates degree, a good GPA, and will be a better candidate for the more prominent schools which he thinks he wants to attend.

Personally, almost 40 years ago, I took tons of classes at my local community college and state university while I was in high school, though I was never officially admitted or was on a degree track at either. When all was said and done, I did transfer enough credits to the top tier engineering school to allow me to graduate in two calendar years (two years after graduating high school). A few years later, my sister went to the local community college for two years, while continuing to live at home and then transferred to a top tier private university as a junior to complete her Bachelors degree there...2017/2018 tuition, room and board, fees, etc. at that school is $72,000!

Apologies for the long post. This is one topic which I am quite passionate about.
 
It is usually not that easy to transfer from one 4 year to another especially in majors with pretty specific criteria like engineering, without having to repeat classes or take longer to graduate. In California the CCs are set up with transfer degrees to go to almost all of the 4 year public colleges and universities. One of our kids didn't like the 4 year choices his HS GPA provided so went to the CC, improved his grades and got an AA transfer degree to a more selective school. The transfer degree guarantees it only takes 2 more years after CC to graduate. We bought him a car for a graduation gift with the money we saved on the CC years.

If it were my child in your situation I would agree to fund the 4 year but not with the idea of transferring again later. It would be either the local university for 4 years (with the agreement they had to keep a B average to keep parental financial support) or CC transfer degree / then more selective school. Or in your case your other options like Ireland. But I think it is best to let him pick an option from whatever you are willing and able to financially support and not make the call for him. Let him rise to the challenge of the local uni and if he doesn't keep his grades up he can fallback to the CC or get a job or some combination. And if he likes hands on work explore the career options at the CC, like industrial equipment repair. Many of the people profiled in The Millionaire Next Door had trades like electrician or plumbing company owner.
 
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I've been reading this thread with interest... I have 2 sons, one a jr, one a freshman, in high school. I also didn't take a direct path to college.

My parents let me know they would pay 100% of a public school education with 'strings attached'. The strings were 1) a major that would result in a career/job. 2) 3.0 average or better. 3) 4 years... not 6-7 years.

Additional options/strings... If school was local live at home, continue to contribute to chores/household responsibilities. If school was away - dorm and meal plan paid for - or equivalent... no fancy apartments off campus that cost way more than a dorm.

I was accepted to good schools (UC Berkeley for example) but was chaffing under the major restrictions (I wanted to be a poli sci major... which didn't meet the job/career requirement). So... I got a job and moved out. My choice. My parents weren't happy.

Let me tell you this was the best decision, FOR ME, ever... I was determined not to fail because I didn't want my parents (my dad specifically) to be able to say "I told you so.". And I discovered that working at an entry level job (insurance industry) was crappy and underpaid. I continued to go to the community college at night. It also worked out that my parents let me know that I could still go to school on the original terms. I didn't want to move home, even though I was accepted to a local uni. We negotiated. I would not have had the stones to pull off this negotiation at age 18, but at age 21, I was confident. Parents agreed to give me a monthly stipend equivalent to dorm fees... I had a cheap apartment with a roommate - so it worked out. (Although I still had to work part time.)

End of story - I majored in engineering - a field I *never* would have chosen at age 18, and had a great career. By the time I went to college full time I'd discovered the VALUE of education and felt appreciative to have parents willing to pay the school fees and help with the rent. If I'd gone straight to college I am sure I would have flunked out.

Now - as a parent.... I'm considering the same plans. Presenting the options that I'm willing to pay for (colleges I can afford in majors that I approve of.) Presenting the requirements for living under my roof over age 18 (chores, curfews). And at that point, the choice will be theirs. If either chooses to move out and get a mcJob... that's their choice and could be a good thing - like it was for me. I'm not telling them that the offer to pay for college doesn't expire if they don't go right away.... that's something they'll have to negotiate.
 
I had the community college/state university discussion regarding a friend's daughter recently. The girl is a mediocre student at best and currently has no idea what she wants to do with her future. In my state, there is a guaranteed right of transfer from any of the community colleges to a state university after two years. I suggested that it might be a less expensive and more successful way to get the girl launched by having her live at home, start at the local community college and then transfer. By then, she might have focused her mind more and could be in a position to build on early academic success. My friend said that was a non-starter because the girl "wants to have the dorm experience" at the state university. If that's why she really wants to go off to state university, I suspect she will flunk out. I kept that opinion to myself, of course.
 
Those of us that went to college in the 70’s were truly blessed with an advantage of access and affordability that never existed before and has since gone away (IMO), for most.

I think college today is too expensive for causal choices or immature students, and the business of college creates an expectation for parents and students that is unrealistic (for most) but excels at collecting enormous sums of $$. Right out of high school, some combination of work / community college has lots of possible benefits. I also think it’s an excellent idea to focus on lower cost state colleges, and only consider the pricier alternatives when the additional cost is easily justified.

In our case, all three graduated from college. Two weren’t ready for college right out of HS and did poorly their first year, so I stopped supporting them and insisted on job / community college - or just goodby. In each case, a couple of years doing that sure made a positive difference.
 
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MichaelB said:
Those of us that went to college in the 70’s were truly blessed with an advantage of access and affordability that never existed before and has since gone away (IMO), for most.
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I think you may be right. I went to engineering school in Boston. Lived at home and commuted. Private university, but by working the Co-op program I was able to pay for it all and have a few bucks to spend, along with a side gig on week-ends (pushing brooms and cleaning toilets in a metal fab shop).

My tuition in 1973 was $1,600/year. When DS went to school we check out my alma mater. In 1999 it was up to $25,000 per year. WTF?

While I am a fan of a college education, the costs have increased at an unreasonable rate. For the student that is undecided, a local community college sure sounds like the rational way to go.
 
CardsFan said:
While I am a fan of a college education, the costs have increased at an unreasonable rate. For the student that is undecided, a local community college sure sounds like the rational way to go.
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One thing I think is important is to realize that largely due to economic reasons, CC now isn't like CC in the past. When I graduated high school in the 70s people only went to CC (then called junior college) if they were studying a trade or couldn't get into regular college. People did sort of look down on it.

But, now, things are different. Where I live if you do your core stuff at the CC you can transfer to a state university and have met their core. The classes have the same content really as at the university. When DS was actually at the university one semester there was a course he needed that was full at the university. He took it at the CC. It wasn't any less demanding than it would have been at the university.

Most of his classmates were doing what he was doing. First 2 years at CC then transfer. Many of them had parents who (like us) could have afforded 4 years at the university. But, it just didn't make economic sense. DS got smaller classes and more personal attention at the CC at a much smaller cost.

As for social aspects, he is 23 now and is still close friends with many of the people that he went to CC with at 18. Most of them ended up finishing up at other state universities.

I was never sorry that DS went to CC. And, now that he has his B.S. in computer science that is what is important, not where he did his core courses.

Our other son did want to live in a dorm and we thought he could handle it so he did a CC that had dorms. It was still much cheaper than the state university that had dorms. In his case, he was not willing to actually do the work of school and he flamed out after one semester. That was much easier to take with the investment in CC than it would have been at a more expensive university.
 
MichaelB said:
Those of us that went to college in the 70’s were truly blessed with an advantage of access and affordability that never existed before and has since gone away (IMO), for most.
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Memories. GI Bill paid me $222/month for 4 years of engineering school in an Ivy League college. Graduated with no debt only working part time during those years. Employer paid for my MBA two years afterwards.

One can go in the military for two years these days and get about $50,000 toward college when discharged.
 
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