Die With Zero - Book

[FIRE-Traveler]

I'm still reading through this great thread (since I just got the book) and wanted to reply to some stuff that resonated with me (and thank the posters).

Don't have any plans, just do it all on the fly. I was a bit concerned that I was way over the "line" but hey, why worry eh? If things cool off so will we.

I need to have more of this perspective and do more of this process! I've always been "SAVE SAVE SAVE!!!" to have a ton of money in retirement. I'm at the point now where I probably can't spend what I have, unless I SIGNIFICANTLY learn to increase my spending. I need to remind myself that I can always "cool off" and reduce trips, spending, and (worst case) move into a much smaller house if things ever go completely south/bad.

My step children will be instant millionaires if the current trend holds and their mother doesn't spend it all after I'm gone.

That's what is happening right now in real life. I was worried about spending too much, but there's nothing to worry about. Why frugal if you don't have to? Frugal if you have to or you want to but if you don't want to...

I need to re-read this over and over! I've been WAY too frugal over my life (at the detriment of ex-wife, kids, etc. )

Unfortunately at the rate we’re going we’re going to leave too much to our nieces & nephews (all between 19 and 41 yo now). So we’re trying to figure out how to spend more on ourselves now while still leaving a nice chunk to heirs.

I definitely want to leave money to my kids, but I'm realizing I'm on the path to leaving a LOT more than I "should", and it sucks knowing I'm going to leave them money to enjoy AFTER I'm dead... at the expense of being overly frugaland not optomizing experiences with them while I'm alive.

A dear cousin died last year. She was always very frugal but overly so IMO, denying herself things that would've made her life easier (like having her front yard converted into a driveway so she'd have a place to park her car in her urban neighborhood that lacked parking spots). In part this was due to some generalized anxiety on her part and (I suspect) some other psychological issues.

Ya, that's kinda been me over the years. Hopefully reading the book, reading this thread, etc. will help me make changes before it's "too late".

 

[Dtail]

All these hard to spend comments is always interesting to me. While always practicing LBYM aka lots of savings every year, I would have no issues finding things to spend on if my investments doubled next year just as an example.

 

[Lewis Clark]

Wait you shouldn't enjoy life in the now before you stash away 500K for a possible assisted living center.?

Enjoying life and building assets are not always mutually exclusive. I suspect most members here live below, if not well below, their means.

 

[tryan]

Witnessed an interesting inheritance scenario .... Good friends grand father lived past 100. Always believed his 7 figure wad would help his only son. But his only son had demensia at an early age and passed a few years after his inheritance was received. Bulk of the wad went to 24/7 in-home care to the tune of 15k/mo.

Just thinking THAT wad could have been better spent at a earlier age.

 

[tulak]

All these hard to spend comments is always interesting to me. While always practicing LBYM aka lots of savings every year, I would have no issues finding things to spend on if my investments doubled next year just as an example.

Same.

I could finally start flying business and not care. [emoji2]

 

[Dtail]

Same.

I could finally start flying business and not care. [emoji2]

Lamborghini for me as another example.

 

[Koolau]

Lamborghini for me as another example.

Car or tractor?

 

[Dtail]

Car or tractor?

Haha, not paying for an overpriced tractor, just an overpriced car.

 

[ncbill]

Witnessed an interesting inheritance scenario .... Good friends grand father lived past 100. Always believed his 7 figure wad would help his only son. But his only son had demensia at an early age and passed a few years after his inheritance was received. Bulk of the wad went to 24/7 in-home care to the tune of 15k/mo.

Just thinking THAT wad could have been better spent at a earlier age.

But how much health care did he need along the way?

After seeing mom live for the better part of a decade bed-bound, hand-fed, having to be cleaned/changed/dressed simply due to the progress of her dementia (also completely unresponsive due to the same) I've modified my health care POA to be extremely restrictive...any terminal illness, including dementia, palliative care only.

Specifically "no antibiotics" not just "no IV antibiotics" since I don't care to go out like mom...she had plenty of life-threatening infections that resolved with oral antibiotics, but after watching her live like that for years on end I'm content to let my first life-threatening infection also be my last.

 

[DrRoy]

Originally Posted by Markola
I guess we are doing exactly what he advocates by retiring early while we’re healthy and can enjoy it vs. reflexively OMYing to pile up more, more, more that we would not enjoy as much in the coming slow go years, if we’re lucky enough to make it that far.

+1.

RE'd at 57 for this. Still going on multiple trips/year where we go hiking, although we do not maintain the pace all day that we used to.

 

[jldavid47]

Yep, but for whatever reason that particular ALF also wanted to see mid-6 figures in assets.

Oh, I think we all can figure out why they would want that lol

 

[sengsational]

Old thread, but current interview with the author. I read the book a while back, and it inspired me to take various actions, most notably giving money away to my kids before I croak. The idea is that the utility of money is zero when you are a baby, and zero when you are on your death bed, so there's got to be some curve in between where you get the most out of your money. Bad health means it's harder to get good experiences out of your money, so save the frail years for the fancy cruises. Attia and Perkins talk about where the peak in utility is in this interview, and I think they say early fifties. So having your net worth peak after a typical retirement age, even an early retirement age isn't going to be optimal for getting the most experiences out of your money. Saving for a rainy day is good, but self-insuring for every eventuality is a bad investment, according to Perkins, so leave that up to external insurance.

I didn't read the old thread again, but I think if you're just arriving here for the first time, I do recall the thread had a few interesting points made by people who clearly understood the thesis (and a few who only read the title, and had a lot to say, lol!)

https://peterattiamd.com/billperkins/

 

[Koolau]

Old thread, but current interview with the author. I read the book a while back, and it inspired me to take various actions, most notably giving money away to my kids before I croak. The idea is that the utility of money is zero when you are a baby, and zero when you are on your death bed, so there's got to be some curve in between where you get the most out of your money. Bad health means it's harder to get good experiences out of your money, so save the frail years for the fancy cruises. Attia and Perkins talk about where the peak in utility is in this interview, and I think they say early fifties. So having your net worth peak after a typical retirement age, even an early retirement age isn't going to be optimal for getting the most experiences out of your money. Saving for a rainy day is good, but self-insuring for every eventuality is a bad investment, according to Perkins, so leave that up to external insurance.

I didn't read the old thread again, but I think if you're just arriving here for the first time, I do recall the thread had a few interesting points made by people who clearly understood the thesis (and a few who only read the title, and had a lot to say, lol!)

https://peterattiamd.com/billperkins/

I've found much more pleasure in meeting needs (kids, charities, individuals, etc.) than buying "stuff." So, I've opened the purse strings quite a bit in the past few years. Barring black swans (and based on our ages) I think it's safe to go a bit "wild" in our last years. I wouldn't say we're actively trying to spend every last dollar before we croak, but I want to avoid death-bed regrets that we could have done so much more with what we've been blessed with. Very personal decisions here, so YMMV.

 

[dixonge]

Depending upon what life throws at you in your final decades, ensuring a decent stash until the end could be the difference between enduring miserable months or years in a neglectful 1 star hellhole with angry, abusive staff because it's the only place who will take you as a medicaid patient - vs at least a somewhat decent living and care environment.

I don't mean to sound grim, but I speak from experience.

My parents have been able to stay in a decent assisted living facility because they got lucky and had someone sign them up for the VA Aid & Attendance benefit, which boosted their income by 60%. They are now having to move to an area where they've never lived because inflation has raised their rates to where they are below $300 left in their budget, no room for *any* unexpected expenses. In spite of their many health problems, they are still alive and functional thanks to modern medicine. But they aren't far from that 1-star hellhole experience.

I think one can both live life well *now* -- AND also die not broke. You do have to plan for it though. Having a mid-life epiphany about early retirement might be a bit late for a blow-that-dough budget without taking further drastic measures. Their are limits to increasing your income, but most aren't willing to make big changes on the expenses side. Our plan would never have worked without lowering our costs by living in Mexico for most of the last decade.

 

[Sunset]

....

He also speaks from the enviable perch of a good safety net - he can blow dough because he's not alone - he has family to help if he really falls on hard times. .... ...

Depending upon what life throws at you in your final decades, ensuring a decent stash until the end could be the difference between enduring miserable months or years ...... vs at least a somewhat decent living and care environment.

....

I feel it's also fairly selfish, my sister would blow all her money when some fell into her lap, never considering that spending every penny and going into debt via CC's meant unpleasant choices later.

I gave my sister limited money to ensure she could be in a decent place, but she selfishly was ungrateful for the help as she always wanted more.

My gift to my children it to never ask them for money.

 

[Fermion]

But how much health care did he need along the way?

After seeing mom live for the better part of a decade bed-bound, hand-fed, having to be cleaned/changed/dressed simply due to the progress of her dementia (also completely unresponsive due to the same) I've modified my health care POA to be extremely restrictive...any terminal illness, including dementia, palliative care only.

Specifically "no antibiotics" not just "no IV antibiotics" since I don't care to go out like mom...she had plenty of life-threatening infections that resolved with oral antibiotics, but after watching her live like that for years on end I'm content to let my first life-threatening infection also be my last.

Is this a thing? I really don't want to live bed-bound or in pain so I would sign up for something that says just give me morphine and put on re-runs of Mash or something until I pass.

 

[GravitySucks]

Is this a thing? I really don't want to live bed-bound or in pain so I would sign up for something that says just give me morphine and put on re-runs of Mash or something until I pass.

Yes it is a real thing. DM is bouncing between Hospital and Rehab. She just consented to antibiotics but signed DNR and DNI.
I’ve had the discussion on antibiotics with DD2 who is my health proxy. When the brain shuts down or I can’t get out of bed no more antibiotics but all the morphine I can get.

 

[Gumby]

I think being able to live without financial concern is greatly enhancing my well being in retirement. That means I will likely leave a tidy sum on the table when I die, but it will have been worth it to me.

 

[sengsational]

The idea in the book (and I "get it" if not everyone subscribes to the concept), is that you insure for everything...all possible expenses, including long term care. Perkins certainly isn't making any recommendations that would increase the chances of being a burden on family, or eating cat food if you live "too long". The title of the book is over-the-top to get attention, I suppose, and leads people to think it's about taking risk that increases the chances of outliving your funds.

 

[Music Lover]

There are a lot of millionaires on this site where dying with zero probably won't happen.

Other people with a modest income could be faced with the choice of saving and doing without for their last 20 years only to have the small amount they managed to save wiped out during their last 2 weeks.

Of course that's a very simplistic example, but would you rather enjoy your money during your last 20 years or save it in case you need it the last 2 weeks when you might not even know what's going on?

 

[athena53]

The idea in the book (and I "get it" if not everyone subscribes to the concept), is that you insure for everything...all possible expenses, including long term care. Perkins certainly isn't making any recommendations that would increase the chances of being a burden on family, or eating cat food if you live "too long".

I agree. I haven't read the book but heard the interview and it's helped me to firm up thoughts I already had. My top priorities, in order, are Don't outlive my savings, Fund my grandchildren's educations and Leave a legacy.

I've relaxed a bit since retiring almost 9 years ago because my assets have increased 2%/year even with the recent drop in the market. I withdraw $X per year and if I don't spend it I give it to DS and DDIL or to charity. Why wait to do it in a giant lump after I'm gone, and not see the fruits of my work? I also learned from having a 15-years-older husband that waiting till I retired to see the world was not a good idea. Good thing- he died when I was 62 but we had some great trips together.

 

[Phroig]

I agree. I haven't read the book but heard the interview and it's helped me to firm up thoughts I already had. My top priorities, in order, are Don't outlive my savings …

+1
The corollary to “Die with zero” is “When you get to zero, you must die”.

 

[ncbill]

Is this a thing? I really don't want to live bed-bound or in pain so I would sign up for something that says just give me morphine and put on re-runs of Mash or something until I pass.

In the USA every state has a model form for health care POA (HCPOA) which lets you appoint a health care agent who has the ultimate legal authority to consent/refuse consent for all medical treatment if you set it up that broadly.

Comfort care ("medications for the treatment of pain, etc") has always been specified in any I've seen.

You want the above instead of any form of "living will" because with those the decision authority ultimately rests with the doctor.

Mom had the standard "no IV antibiotics" language in her HCPOA but oral antibiotics were sufficient to cure the many infections she developed after becoming bed bound...until the final one.

She was bed-bound, completely unresponsive due simply to the progress of her dementia, for the better part of a decade.

So if I am diagnosed with any terminal illness (including dementia) I am content to let my first infection be my last.

 

[aaronc879]

+1
The corollary to “Die with zero” is “When you get to zero, you must die”.

You would still have SS and maybe government assistance. A large amount of the retired population knows nothing but that so you hardy have to die when you get to that point.

 

[sengsational]

The biggest problem I have with getting down to zero at the end is making sure we have enough for end of life care.

Perkins is saying that you simply insure for it, but buying commercial LTCI is a problem because the available products are simply not any good.

So if commercial LTCI isn't the answer, then self insuring is. For the purposes of DWZ, what about the idea is that you calculate what your expected long term care expenses will likely be, subtract that from your net worth, and spend everything else?

Below I reference an article by a financial planner that I've been following for decades, and I think he and his team are on-target with most topics. The article talks about how to calculate what you'll likely need to cover LTC needs. He says for a couple, it's likely you'll need to plan for only one person, since it's likely that one of the couple can manage, with some help, to care for the sick person. Nothing in this is perfect, but playing the odds, only 40% of people end up needing LTC at all. And of that 40%, 90 percent last less than 3 years. So the article says to figure out how much LTC costs in your area, and multiply by 3.1. https://www.marottaonmoney.com/how-to-self-insure-for-long-term-care-health-expenses-2022/

So you allocate the funds, say $300K, and that's your LTC self-insurance. That amount is subtracted such that the rest of your net worth, then, if you follow the logic of the book, is open for spending. Hopefully the math will work-out so that your minimal comfortable spending level can be sustained until (the article suggests) age 100, while preserving the LTC self-insurance bucket.