Electric Cars and Types of Driving

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by Amethyst View Post
Well, we do drive most days of the week. Just not more than about 10 miles from the house, and all in traffic/stoplights.

Driving 10 miles is more than enough to keep the car in good condition. Plenty for the drivetrain to to get up to operating temps and the battery fully charged, the car is fine. It does not have to be full highway long distance, although that is good to do occasionally. In FL you do not have the extreme colder temps where it takes longer to get up to operating temps.

Once warmed up, stopping and starting the engine is no issue. As evidenced by the mfrs of new cars now use engine stop programming to kill the engine at stoplights and then restart once you step on the throttle.
Only thing you need to do is use the mfr sever duty maintenance cycle, which would be more often engine oil changes and possibly transmission fluid changes.

+1. These concerns, while valid, seem to be overblown. DW has a 2-3 mile drive (depending which route she feels like) to her job. So 2-3 miles, then sits outside, then 2-3 miles again to get home. Much of it in the cold winter weather. The attached but unheated garage generally stays above freezing except in the coldest spells, but it's outside at work.

Most of our shopping is 4-5 miles away. We don't even bother with the 'severe duty' oil changes, the oil minder usually doesn't indicate we need a change until about a year has passed, sometimes more (they still recc annual change). Never had an engine problem with her cars. I wouldn't worry about it, but an extended drive once a month or so would not be a bad idea.

-ERD50

 

[Animorph]

A few questions:

- What's the cost of installing the 240V/40A outlet?

- Why is not having trips to the gas station a goal but stopping 1/2hr+ to recharge is OK? In fact, I rarely make trips to gas stations with my ICE car. I just stop along the route I'm already going. And I'm fully recharged with gas in 5 minutes.

- Why is needing to stick to a pre-planned route desirable vs. being able to make spur of the moment route changes knowing finding fuel isn't a consideration at all except under rare circumstances?

Thanks.

We spent about $600 for my BIL to install a Tesla charger, plus $500 for the charger. A NEMA 14-50 wall outlet would be cheaper and requires only an adapter for the mobile charger the car comes with. If you drive less than 50 miles a day and don't hit below freezing too much 120V 15A is perfectly adequate. The Model 3 gets about 4-5 miles of charge per hour with that.

We used to go to the gas station locally about every two weeks per car. That's
something we never have to think about now. The car is "full" every morning. As for traveling, it's surprising what a difference those breaks every two hours make. I can recommend that even if you're driving an ICE car. A day of driving used to be very draining, and I swore off long trips before we got the Tesla. It does take about 25% longer than Google Maps drive times to accommodate charging if you do nothing else. But you don't usually pump gas and hit the restroom at the same time. We hit the restroom while the car is charging. Or we eat lunch or dinner while the car is charging. Frequently the car has to wait for us to finish what we're doing. The other times we just walk around. Superchargers are located at malls, restaurants, truck stops, hotels, and a few other strange places, usually very close to the highway. Usually there are things to do for 30 minutes. Our longest trips are about 2000 miles one-way. And a lot of trips in the 300-700 mile range. Some Tesla owners (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/) report their kids don't like the stops, but others say they couldn't survive their kids without the stops. So it's an individual preference I suppose. We're not traveling with kids and we're in no rush.

Sticking to a pre-planned route is not necessary. But you can't always just hop in the car and head someplace you've never been. Desirable? I didn't say that. It's the biggest difference between electric and ICE. While any outlet will help charge the car, they can be very slow. On long trips it seems a lot like oasis hopping in a desert to me. One charger to the next, with nothing (fast) in between. If you are staying in a place without a Supercharger there will usually be a hotel with a home charger available, or a business with a charger. The Tesla navigation feature lets you know if you can make a particular destination, including a round trip, but unfortunately does not yet do waypoints. Here's a charger map:
https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bo...om=6&filters=destination charger,supercharger)

As an engineer, I have fun with the new tech and enjoy planning trips. We wouldn't be taking them if it wasn't for the Tesla, so the sometimes inconvenient charging is not an issue. I think for local driving, electric is easily superior to gas. For long trips electric is not an obstacle, but requires that bit of planning that gas doesn't. Kind of like that highway sign that says "Next Gas 60 Miles".

 

[travelover]

.........My Dad had a 2004 Town Car that he bought used in 2006. .........

When ever I see a younger person driving a Town Car, I always feel like saying, Sorry about your grandfather".

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

A few questions:

- What's the cost of installing the 240V/40A outlet?

- Why is not having trips to the gas station a goal but stopping 1/2hr+ to recharge is OK? In fact, I rarely make trips to gas stations with my ICE car. I just stop along the route I'm already going. And I'm fully recharged with gas in 5 minutes.

- Why is needing to stick to a pre-planned route desirable vs. being able to make spur of the moment route changes knowing finding fuel isn't a consideration at all except under rare circumstances?

Thanks.

Regarding gas stations....Where I live in LA, gas stations have either homeless or gangbangers loitering. I have never seen an undesirable near a Tesla supercharger yet. Gas stations reek of fumes. I'll pass. It takes me 20 minutes to charge from 50% to 80% in my Tesla. I get a drink, food, walk the dogs, whatever I feel like. Or I just charge at home.

One last point...Google "sliding". Thieves are stealing purses and such from vehicles at gas stations while the customer is pumping gas, not paying attention due to cell phone, etc

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

We lived in FL 40 years ago. I learned that heat (long, hot drives) kills batteries. It may be better today.

Perhaps you could lease a Leaf for a year as a friend did, to check it out.

I have been surprised at the economy and reliability of the Prius hybrid. Can you lease one of those for a while?

 

[Animorph]

The Leaf had no temp control of the battery and tended to degrade rapidly in heat. Not sure if they have active cooling now. Tesla has liquid cooling, including using some A/C when necessary. No temp problem that anyone has seen so far. The batteries are expected to last a few hundred thousand miles. The calendar life has yet to be determined.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

We lived in FL 40 years ago. I learned that heat (long, hot drives) kills batteries. It may be better today.

Perhaps you could lease a Leaf for a year as a friend did, to check it out.

I have been surprised at the economy and reliability of the Prius hybrid. Can you lease one of those for a while?

As Animorph stated, the Leaf's batteries are air cooled. An Arizona or Florida environment will reduce battery range on them over time. Your 120 mile Leaf might be an 80 mile Leaf over say 5 years.

Tesla, Bolt, and all others are liquid cooled. I'm on month 17 on my 1st Tesla and there has been no degradation. The news would be plastered with stories about the subject if there was an issue.

 

[Snafu]

Leaf Plus EV newbie...

I just purchased a Leaf Plus a couple weeks ago and am gradually getting over my paranoia of "what happens if I go too far". I'm not exactly in a big city with lots of charging stations, but I'm finding that a lot of car dealerships have them (although don't necessarily advertise the fact) and most are super-friendly about letting folks use them. (I had been looking at Teslas, but I think I'm waiting till their supply, repair, and business model improves and stabilizes till I'd consider an upgrade seriously.)

Most of my driving is 30-40 miles round-trip with occasional trips to visit family/friends about 90 miles away (mostly highway)... I've managed the longer trips a couple times, with a few detours, and still had at least 40-50 miles left by the time I get home. I do have an old favorite 4WD ICE that will get me around in particularly bad weather in the winter, but I am really enjoying the Leaf. I know I can easily do 200 miles just on a home charge.

I used my 120v garage outlets (with the adaptor and charger/cable provided by Nissan with the car as part of the purchase) for the first couple weeks, but an $188 electrician bill got me one of the 240v/50 amp plugs to charge in my garage - using the solar off my roof. I'm working the numbers to see if the demand of the car charging puts me over my rooftop capacity and means I may have to start paying for some of my electricity (have had nothing on my electric bill but a small grid fee for five years). If that's the case, for $250 + electrician visit, I can have a second meter put on my house and then use off-peak electric rates for charging the car separate from my main line. (The electric company cannot separate out solar net-metering for off-peak billing). I typically let the battery get down to about 20% and then it takes about 7-8 hours overnight to charge every few days... unless I know I'll be doing a lot of driving the next day and then I just "top it off" to 100% the night before. (Note: most charging can go relatively quickly till it hits 80%, then the charge is throttled to prevent any damage or possible over-charging to the battery... so when using public chargers, 80% is my goal per charge - twenty minutes gets me about 60 more miles on my range.

I have found that using the more relaxing back roads and enjoying the trip have given me ranges actually much higher than the 225 quoted on the Leaf documentation. With the $7500 tax credit, $2K company rebate, $1K electric company rebate, and trade in of an old Ford, my final price was in the mid-$20K range. It's fun playing with the technology and learning the features. I do have an insulated (but not heated) garage, so we shall see what winter brings. I have to admit that I really like the drive, acceleration, and just passing gas stations... although I did stop in at one for a cold drink this week!

 

[Music Lover]

We used to go to the gas station locally about every two weeks per car. That's
something we never have to think about now. The car is "full" every morning. As for traveling, it's surprising what a difference those breaks every two hours make. I can recommend that even if you're driving an ICE car. A day of driving used to be very draining, and I swore off long trips before we got the Tesla. It does take about 25% longer than Google Maps drive times to accommodate charging if you do nothing else. But you don't usually pump gas and hit the restroom at the same time. We hit the restroom while the car is charging. Or we eat lunch or dinner while the car is charging. Frequently the car has to wait for us to finish what we're doing. The other times we just walk around. Superchargers are located at malls, restaurants, truck stops, hotels, and a few other strange places, usually very close to the highway. Usually there are things to do for 30 minutes. Our longest trips are about 2000 miles one-way. And a lot of trips in the 300-700 mile range. Some Tesla owners (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/) report their kids don't like the stops, but others say they couldn't survive their kids without the stops. So it's an individual preference I suppose. We're not traveling with kids and we're in no rush.

Yup...individual preference. Having to stop for a half hour every 2 hours would be a deal breaker for us. We're used to 10 or 11 hour road trips with minimal stops. 3 or maybe 4 short breaks for gas and/or bathroom breaks of 5 or 10 minutes each, and if we're already stopping for a bathroom break then it's no big deal to top up the tank at the same time...especially if topping it up will be enough to finish the day without another stop.

A typical 10 hour drive for us would go as follows: Leave at 6:30 eating a light breakfast on the road, stop around 9:00 or 10:00 for bathroom break. 2nd stop around noon for bathroom break and to top up gas tank. Eat lunch on the road, 3rd stop again mid-afternoon for bathroom break. Arrive at destination at 5:00. 10 hours of driving with 3 breaks totaling a half hour.

 

[Chuckanut]

Yup...individual preference. Having to stivop for a half hour every 2 hours would be a deal breaker for us.

A bit off topic, but I use this strategy when driving long distances every day for several days. I start with a small breakfast. Every two hours I stop for a beverage and usually a small bite to eat. My beverage of choice in the AM is usually coffee, but later in the day it may be milk or even one of the dreaded diet sodas (which I otherwise almost never consume otherwise). The stops last about 10-20 minutes depending upon whether I need to get gas.

I find frequent short stops to be the least draining for me. YMMV.

EV? Not for me yet. I find my hybrid while not #1 in most areas of car comfort and use, is highly ranked (by me of course) in most of the things I want in a car. IOW, in the case of my hybrid, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

 

[atxk]

Go Hybrid

Well, my closest relatives are 500 and 800 miles away, respectively.

Go with a Toyota Hybrid. We have a 2016 Avalon Limited Hybrid. Best car we ever bought. 35 city, 38 hwy.

Or if you can live with a smaller car any of the other Toyota hybrids will work.

 

[morriss003]

Recently, I mentioned the drop in our car's gas mileage, and my fears for the engine's health, since we moved to Florida and no longer have any high-speed distance driving to do. Instead, the car either sits in the garage or is forced to do short trips involving lots of lower-speed, stop-and-go driving. This is defined by the manufacturer as "severe driving conditions."

We are trying to come up with excuses to get out on the turnpike in order to give the car a good run.

Are "types of driving" a concern for electric vehicles? We are starting to think about a new car.

Consider a plug-in hybrid. We have a Kia Niro PHEV. We fill the gas tank about every 2,000 miles.

 

[Uplooking]

Recently, I mentioned the drop in our car's gas mileage, and my fears for the engine's health, since we moved to Florida and no longer have any high-speed distance driving to do. ...
Are "types of driving" a concern for electric vehicles? We are starting to think about a new car.

Short hop driving does reduce the mileage likely in the 5% range. Other reasons for suddenly lower mileage as noted from my car enthusiast friends are brake pads hanging up on the rotor. A trusted mechanic/mechanical friend would be a good find as well. Other wear items will show up as well including mufflers.

As to EVs/hybrids I'd prefer an hybird electric over a full EV for all the previous listed reasons about range. The big question for an electric vehicle is what happens to the car's value as the batteries age and near the replacement date?

Currently a long distance commuter still working... hope to retire before the next 200k miles!

 

[FIREarly]

As to EVs/hybrids I'd prefer an hybird electric over a full EV

If you are looking for a hybrid, how about the new Ferrari Hybrid?

https://www.cnn.com/videos/business...-business/video/playlists/business-drive-cars

 

[gerntz]

Regarding gas stations....Where I live in LA, gas stations have either homeless or gangbangers loitering. I have never seen an undesirable near a Tesla supercharger yet. Gas stations reek of fumes. I'll pass. It takes me 20 minutes to charge from 50% to 80% in my Tesla. I get a drink, food, walk the dogs, whatever I feel like. Or I just charge at home.

One last point...Google "sliding". Thieves are stealing purses and such from vehicles at gas stations while the customer is pumping gas, not paying attention due to cell phone, etc

Quite the endorsement for where you live. Thanks.

 

[explanade]

I have a prius and really have not considered types of driving. I just use it when I need to. mostly city, some highway, but in any case if I had to worry about using it for certain kinds of driving I would look elsewhere. it has been one of the most problem free cars I have owned.

When I considered hybrids back when I was working, I learned that for short drives, you don't benefit that much from hybrids because you don't benefit much from regenerative breaking.

My commute was really short and after FIRE, still don't drive that much.

But I am looking at an EV in a couple of years. By then, there should be many more EV choices out in the market.

 

[davebarnes]

Our next car will be an EV.
1. We drive 4200 miles/yr.
2. Our typical longest drive is 16.4 miles to/from "the kids".
3. Our longest drive of 2019 was 40 miles round trip.

We are just waiting as our 2007 Audi A3 only has 54K miles.
We want:
1. Crossover. Wife wants higher off the ground. And, she is the young one.
2. Short crossover. Nothing longer than our A3.
3. Moonroof, leather seats.
4. More safety features.

An Audi Q2 EV would be perfect, but those buttholes at Audi don't think Americans should drive Q2s.

 

[explanade]

Yeah the auto manufacturers are touting these features, like emergency braking if something jumps in your path, or blind side warning.

I don't know if they would be good for older or elderly drivers. Maybe.

Audi is selling overpriced eTrons now.

But their better EV platforms will be coming a year or more from now.

BMW is about to launch the iX3 (maybe in the spring) and that is suppose to be the first of their new EV platform as well.

However they are going to price a $20-25k premium over the ICE X3 version.

Volvo is going to sell a crossover SUV in the $50k range.

Mercedes announced a $69k ECQ, crossover EV but then withdrew it. They may have another low-priced crossover EV that might be more competitive with the Model Y.

Meanwhile, the Japanese are really behind. Honda CEO says he doesn't think EVs will spur additional demand. Toyota and Honda are planning some small EVs for the US market but they're planning to do more in China.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

When I considered hybrids back when I was working, I learned that for short drives, you don't benefit that much from hybrids because you don't benefit much from regenerative breaking.

My commute was really short and after FIRE, still don't drive that much.

But I am looking at an EV in a couple of years. By then, there should be many more EV choices out in the market.

Can confirm. I had a Prius for 7 years. It had a graph on the display that indicated your MPG. For the first 5 minutes of every drive, the Prius got 10 -15 MPG. Jumped to 50 or more after the five minute period.

 

[Bamaman]

The government is closing down our coal fired steam plants right and left. The last nuclear power plant that's ever going to be built is in Georgia, and cost overruns have bankrupted many contractors--and power rates are already being raised for overruns.

Windmills only work in a few places in this country, and 10% of all U.S. steel production goes to build them. It costs $2 million a mile to hook'em to the power grid.

Where is all the electricity coming from to power all these Electric Vehicles of the future?

 

[aaronc879]

I was considering an EV in the future but after some research I have decided that if I continue to live in Wisconsin then an EV is not a good option. In cold temperatures you can lose 50% or more of the range and it also takes longer to charge. It is often below freezing for months at a time here so it's cold a lot. EVs are much better outside of the artic north.

 

[pj.mask]

The government is closing down our coal fired steam plants right and left. The last nuclear power plant that's ever going to be built is in Georgia, and cost overruns have bankrupted many contractors--and power rates are already being raised for overruns.

Windmills only work in a few places in this country, and 10% of all U.S. steel production goes to build them. It costs $2 million a mile to hook'em to the power grid.

Where is all the electricity coming from to power all these Electric Vehicles of the future?

My guess would be rooftop solar will take a big chunk in the south. As you said, windmills continue to be built and I believe those last a long time. Natural gas is in an oversupply right now so that may spur some conversion (from coal). I think if the goal is to be carbon neutral, natural gas with CO2 collection may be the future.

 

[Bamaman]

Our 2018 Camry Hybrid gets 49 mpg in town or on the open road @ 75 mph. In 48K miles, it's never seen the shop--or any electrical outlet.

I may not ever get back the $4K premium for the hybrid function. But the car/engine is remarkably quiet running on electrics in town. The running gear is so smooth. And few vehicles leave me coming off red lights in the Sport Mode. We like the hybrids because they're so different.

If I was buying today, I'd either be going for the RAV-4 Hybrid @ $850 difference vs. gas or a plusher Avalon.

 

[gerntz]

I was considering an EV in the future but after some research I have decided that if I continue to live in Wisconsin then an EV is not a good option. In cold temperatures you can lose 50% or more of the range and it also takes longer to charge. It is often below freezing for months at a time here so it's cold a lot. EVs are much better outside of the artic north.

Never have seen EV mileage between charges touted for 0 degrees F. 10 feet maybe?

 

[Zathras]

The government is closing down our coal fired steam plants right and left. The last nuclear power plant that's ever going to be built is in Georgia, and cost overruns have bankrupted many contractors--and power rates are already being raised for overruns.

Windmills only work in a few places in this country, and 10% of all U.S. steel production goes to build them. It costs $2 million a mile to hook'em to the power grid.

Where is all the electricity coming from to power all these Electric Vehicles of the future?

Since most EVs charge overnight when there is excess grid capacity, it comes from... excess grid capacity.
Most of the studies done on this indicate no new changes to the grid would be needed (from a capacity standpoint) until 40% of the market are EVs.

Local distribution infrastructure may need upgrades depending upon who is charging when, and with how big a draw.

Overall, EV ownership lowers the cost (or delays the increase) of the local electricity as formerly unused capacity is used and paid for.