Mary Tyler Moore

[RunningBum]

CBS is playing an hour-long special right now, all about MTM.

For a little while I thought it was going to be all about Oprah Winfrey, but they finally got back to MTM.

 

[kcowan]

I was disappointed that the retrospectives ignored the Private Eye roll. It really underscored how she would do anything.

 

[ERD50]

I was 13 in 1970 when the MTM show began. I had no doubt about my ability to do a job well, although I realized I would have to excel to be taken seriously. If I were 13 now, I might have become an engineer, but in those days there were very few women engineers, and I was warned about sexual harassment, which would have been difficult to cope with alone. So I chose a career path that was more welcoming to females. What I got from MTM was the idea that a single woman could have an interesting and independent life.

Thanks, I'll have to ask DW if she looked up to that character in the same way. But she did go into a 'traditional' female career (at first).

Few female engineers at that time - tell me about it!

At MegaCorp, there were definitely male/female roles (mid 70's). The routine production assembly line work was almost entirely female. But the ambitious ones also got into management positions on the line, and in our production meetings, they were equals with their male counterparts. I just can't imagine not taking their input with the same weight as their male counterparts. We had a job to do, and they knew their job well - gender wasn't an issue that I ever saw. There were few if any female development engineers when I started, but not that long after there definitely were some. I really don't know if they faced any discrimination problems, I never saw it. And being female, they were noticed, I think it probably helped them. But of course, there are jerks out there. Several climbed the management chain (faster than me, because they were better at their job than me!).

Wow, the memories come flooding back. I remember the older guy I worked with, nice guy, quiet, but got along with everyone, was good at his job, went out of his way to teach me the ropes. One day, a young man got hired to work the assembly line with all these females. He said "That's not right, that a woman's job." Now that sounds shocking today, but he was looking at it more from the angle of females generally having better manual dexterity with the small parts they worked with. Stereotyping, yes - but no bad intent.


Not saying things were perfect, like I said, there were a lot of preconceived ideas, and it might have been far worse other places. But I guess with so few woman in these roles, a young girl did need someone to look up to, and that's what the MTM character was for a lot of young women.

-ERD50

 

[Meadbh]

Not saying things were perfect, like I said, there were a lot of preconceived ideas, and it might have been far worse other places. But I guess with so few woman in these roles, a young girl did need someone to look up to, and that's what the MTM character was for a lot of young women.

-ERD50

I was in one of those other places.

Also, in my experience, it may be difficult to appreciate the extent of discrimination when you are not one of the group being discriminated against. Just sayin'.

 

[Nemo2]

"That's not right, that a woman's job."

When, (back when), I was promoted within the telco, rather than be stuck attached to a phone as sales support I opted to join the service advisors, (primarily women, and primarily attractive women). The group historically, (to give them some clout I guess), had been assigned management status.

Another sales rep approached me when the news came out, and asked "Aren't you afraid people will think you're gay?", (since the very few males already in this area were).

After about a year, when it became clear I'd made a great tactical move...I had a few about-to-be-promoted sales reps ask about transferring...my stock response was "No, people will think you're gay".

 

[happy2bretired]

She is an adorable combination of strong, cute, and vulnerable.



Too late to go into it now, but I'm curious to hear from the females who speak of that character as a role model. I grew up in those times, and I guess I never really thought of a women at that time as not being able to do a 'man's job'. Though I am aware that the older generation sometimes saw it that

way - so I guess that's the Lou Grant character? But would you let someone else define you? OK, if they were in the position of power, I guess so.



-ERD50

Oh you bet! "Cute and vulnerable" we WERE and still are in many ways. Yep yep and yep!

 

[ERD50]

I was in one of those other places.

Also, in my experience, it may be difficult to appreciate the extent of discrimination when you are not one of the group being discriminated against. Just sayin'.

Sad to hear you had to face those issues.

And I certainly could have been unaware of any issues around me. No question about it. I was focused on trying to do a good job and be rewarded for it, I could have well had tunnel vision to those things. But at least in open meetings, I'm certain that updates and input from female staff were taken with the same weight as anyone else. But again, this is just my experience - not saying it was universal.

-ERD50

 

[happy2bretired]

One of my experiences... Walking up a stairway with a man behind me rubbing my legs. Being young and innocent, not knowing how to react, no sexual harassment laws, and the fear of maybe losing your job.

 

[happy2bretired]

Oh and I guess that I was "doing a man's job" at that time, as a store clerk, as was the man behind me when I was in high school. Sorry but I'm a little fired up on this women's thing right now.

 

[happy2bretired]

Oh of course I had a skirt on...no slacks in school. So, straight to work after school...with my required skirt and hose. Told you I fired up. I'll shut up now.

 

[Meadbh]

One of my experiences... Walking up a stairway with a man behind me rubbing my legs. Being young and innocent, not knowing how to react, no sexual harassment laws, and the fear of maybe losing your job.

Ewwww!

 

[ABQ2015]

Too late to go into it now, but I'm curious to hear from the females who speak of that character as a role model. I grew up in those times, and I guess I never really thought of a women at that time as not being able to do a 'man's job'. Though I am aware that the older generation sometimes saw it that
way - so I guess that's the Lou Grant character? But would you let someone else define you? OK, if they were in the position of power, I guess so.

-ERD50

I wasn’t a professional in the workforce in 1971-77 when the MTM Show aired, was in high school and college, so cannot comment on discrimination in the workforce although I did experience some discrimination in my career that started in the 1980's. But I can comment on Mary being a role model for younger women in the 1970's. Mary appealed to me because she moved to the big city and embraced a new life with career and wore pants to work and I wanted to be like her. I grew up in a small western town in a conservative working class family. Girls were not allowed to wear pants to high school or take shop and auto mechanics. Girls track was recognized as a sport but other girls sports were through a club which had volleyball and gymnastics and occasional competitions with a couple of nearby towns. I was the only girl in my physics class and I was not welcomed.

My father encouraged me to go to college but wanted me to get my MRS degree. Most of my female classmates got married after high school or went to the local teacher’s college. Of my 100 female classmates, one became a doctor and one an engineer (myself) - no lawyers or corporate business types – maybe a few accountants but most of those who attended college went into traditional fields for women.

At 17 I went to the largest city in my state to spread my wings and attend the flagship university. What an improvement but there were some difficulties. For example, engineering students were encouraged to work as groups on homework and projects and it was harder for the females to be accepted into groups and other important information was not always shared with them. There was one case where two female grad students who made A’s on their tests were given a final grade of C by a visiting professor from Utah.

During summers I went home and worked fast food jobs for $1.20 and later $2 an hour to save for next year’s college while my two older brothers got summer jobs at the local mines making at least $5 an hour – I realize their jobs were harder and more physical but there were more opportunities for them and they did not have to take out student loans. My first well paying summer job was not until after my junior year in college when I got a civil engineering technician position with the Forest Service.

Some of the MTM episodes dealt with Mary trying to be taken seriously at work, fitting in a mostly man's world, or finding out she makes less money than Murray - those episodes spoke to me.

Another great thing about Mary is that she played a career woman who was not looking to be married – she showed that being single and having a career was a viable option for happiness and fulfillment. After I finished college, there were still some stigma associated with a single career woman not being married and you were considered odd or pitied, especially by married women - e.g., Phyllis on MTM. For example, people would ask me if I wasn’t fearful for my safety for living alone or traveling alone on business as if I shouldn't be doing those things. I don’t think that stigma went away until the late 90’s for the simple reason that by then there were so many of us including divorced women.

 

[happy2bretired]

Thank you!

 

[eytonxav]

Always liked MTM. When I worked as a movie theater usher back in the 60s, saw her in Thoroughly Modern Millie about 50x, she was gorgeous.

 

[Calico]

That was it! Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you! Even better than I remember!

LG: never married? Why?
MTM: Why?
LG: Mmmmm. You type?
MTM: there's no simple answer to that question ...
LG: How many answers can there be? You can type, you can't type.
MTM: 65
LG:?? "words per minute?, my typing question?".

Classic! I'd rate that up there with "who's on first". <snip>

You are most welcome!

I watched it again, and it brought back fond memories.

 

[Calico]

I was in one of those other places.

Also, in my experience, it [-]may be difficult[/-] is impossible to appreciate the extent of discrimination when you are not one of the group being discriminated against. Just sayin'.

IMHO, at any rate.

 

[Meadbh]

IMHO, at any rate.

+1
I was being diplomatic.

 

[Calico]

+1
I was being diplomatic.

I figured!

People call me a lot of things, but diplomatic is never one of them!

 

[ERD50]

You are most welcome!

I watched it again, and it brought back fond memories.

I had it queued up for DW to watch, and she loved it as well.

I asked her if she felt the same as some here, that the MTM character was looked up to as inspirational, and she didn't feel that way at all, she planned to do what she was going to do, and didn't need a TV character to show the way. Just a different perspective, no right/wrong to it.

And thanks to all for the reflections, some seem like painful memories, I hope I'm not touching any nerves here. One story, where the poster and my wife agreed, but I thought would be different, was the story of a female engineering student feeling like an outcast among male engineering students. I thought guys would welcome girls in their study group - DW did think they would dismiss them. I guess just different experiences.

And it's not like my workplace was heaven in this regard. There was locker room talk, and stuff that just wouldn't be accepted today. And I'm sure bad things happened then and now that I was just blind to. But I just didn't see blatant discrimination towards women.

I don't want to get hung up on this - but:

it [-]may be difficult[/-] is impossible to appreciate the extent of discrimination

Maybe, but I don't think that's it. I don't think you have to have been starving or lacked for clean water to understand that is a problem for some people, and feel empathy for them, know that it is wrong, and want to do something about it, like donate to heifer.org. Sure, you don't have the same level of understanding that comes from 'walking a mile', but that doesn't mean you don't 'get it'. But maybe I don't - I guess I'll never know.

-ERD50

 

[Meadbh]

Sure, you don't have the same level of understanding that comes from 'walking a mile', but that doesn't mean you don't 'get it'. But maybe I don't - I guess I'll never know.

-ERD50

You don't quite get it, ERD50, but we won't hold that against you.

 

[ERD50]

You don't quite get it, ERD50, but we won't hold that against you.

I guess that's good enough. back at you!

-ERD50

 

[happy2bretired]

Na..he's good I enjoy him. I'm sane again.... something really got to me this week. I'm going a little nuts on my Facebook page. I'm in an alternative state I guess. Cheers!