neighborhood legal question

[bobbyr]

We have a neighbor who two years ago started a neighborhood project to dead end a street in a very large neighborhood with a lot of parallel streets that she also hopes to eventually dead end. She worked in local government and knows the ins and outs of the processes. She is a millenial who has rounded up A LOT of other millenials to pursue her 'plan' for our neighborhood. She is very vocal and uses social media with a good bit of manipulation, distorting facts to suit her purposes.

We are about to have a land use committee vote on all whether the dead end becomes permanent. She sent an email two years ago and laid out her larger plan for the neighborhood...she bcc'd all the recipients. I think people have forgotten the insanity of her bigger plan.

My question is: would there be any legal reason not to post the content of that email on our neighborhood site (for all to see)? We want to remind people of her larger intentions.

 

[Dash man]

If it’s a legal question, shouldn’t it go to an attorney? All we can give are opinions from an anonymous Internet source.

 

[bobbyr]

well yes, i am just looking for some feedback from anyone who might have gone through something similar - i wouldn't be acting on the feedback necessarily

 

[Aerides]

Depends on the rules of your neighborhood site. And places like Next Door and stuff are largely driven by community moderators. So it might be legal, but it might not stick.

If however, she bcc'd everyone her initial plans, i doubt many of them have truly forgotten. Sounds like she's a good organizer and has some degree of buy in on her plans.

If you object to her overall plan, are you getting involved in the committee to ensure the conversation is complete?

 

[street]

I have seen it happen where I live, that our designated alley was abandon because of someone built on alley easement. So, the city done away with land owners, to use the alley because they closed it. Now we have no way to back of property to do any maintenance or do improvement or fix sewer, power or water issues that may occur. It is a bad situation when closing access.

As far as a legal action I would say if you have a quote from this person and can show entire email time, date and from who and so on, I would say it would be fine to share that email with whom ever.

If your committee gathering has an attorney, that would be the route I would go then.

She sounds like a person that will go to any extent to get her way, so she is a loose cannon for sure. Someone that doesn't play fair, is a dangerous person to deal with.

 

[ERD50]

Why does she want to dead-end the streets, and what is your objection?

I would imagine the dead-ends are to cut down on through traffic. Sounds like a positive to me. What are the cons?

-ERD50

 

[savory]

I’ve worked trying to get things done in city government. I find it to be a numbers game or pet project. She seems to understand that and I expect she is convincing millinals to work with her since they maybe the easiest to convince for this project. Typically, 10 plus people showing up for any city meeting in support of a program represents an army.

Given the information shared, you don’t need her exact quotes. You need to focus on the consequences of this project as you see them. And the importance for your supporters to show up for the meeting. And get as many as time allows to speak using YOUR talking points. Create a talking sheet for them.

Again, the information you shared is vague but it sounds familiar so this suggestion is my attempt to fill in the blanks.

 

[bobbyr]

thanks for all the feedback - very helpful

the street she wants to dead end has a circle and cove inside it's two entry points -- there has been a pilot project in place for over a year (she got 75% yes signatures, she is a bulldog) with the big street access point shut off. +100 houses suddenly are on a street with one access point.

she has an army of supporters (mostly young uns) and has a lot of street fairs, vendors etc to make her case look good. she distorts info quite a bit for her cause and manipulates details. problem is mostly that she has the energy, time and inclination and the 'anti-s' are generally older folks and neighbors on other streets that are gonna pick up the additional traffic flow.

i like savory suggestion about not needing her exact quotes...that is helpful and removes the legal question...we have the email as backup if we need it.

thanks for the feedback

 

[Philliefan33]

Why does she want to dead-end the streets, and what is your objection?



I would imagine the dead-ends are to cut down on through traffic. Sounds like a positive to me. What are the cons?



-ERD50

Emergency vehicle access (fire trucks and ambulances) may be delayed with dead-end streets

 

[Aerides]

She sounds like a person that will go to any extent to get her way, so she is a loose cannon for sure. Someone that doesn't play fair, is a dangerous person to deal with.

Sorry but this is a bit nuts. She has a position, and she's organizing support for it. She might well be less than well intentioned, but we have zero info to make that assumption.

OP doesn't like her plan; all we know is she's younger and female, and good at rallying others around her... and yet we're assuming from a few comments on an forum thread that she's dangerous...... smh

 

[bobbyr]

Sorry but this is a bit nuts. She has a position, and she's organizing support for it. She might well be less than well intentioned, but we have zero info to make that assumption.

OP doesn't like her plan; all we know is she's younger and female, and good at rallying others around her... and yet we're assuming from a few comments on an forum thread that she's dangerous...... smh

that's fair -- agree with your response in principle.

I wouldn't have the energy to convey all the details and I am definitely promoting the other side.

 

[street]

There is always some bad with closing a street or access. On my ranch they closed a section line, because it went to any area that was not drivable and end in deep canyons. That was fine but now there is no access from that part of the ranch.

I would beleive there are many very good reason not to close the through street. Here in Montana you can still land lock land and in many cases the owner of land can't get to his own land. Montana is really a backward state when it come to land and access laws.

 

[bobbyr]

Emergency vehicle access (fire trucks and ambulances) may be delayed with dead-end streets

this is one of our large points to be made in the meeting this week...we have 4 different EMS incidents on our street during the Pilot including my covid 'can't breathe' incident where i was waiting for ambulance with oxygen and listened to the sirens as the ambulance and fire truck made the extra drive to get to me (3 minutes or so)

 

[JoshTrent]

... +100 houses suddenly are on a street with one access point.

If you are looking to fight her, ask her to provide the City/County a revised Emergency Response Plan. I am not sure if you are in an area prone to natural disasters, but ingress/egress will be impaired by this new limitation. It's also an easy argument for a more advanced generation to get behind & articulate.

Case in point.. I lived in a area where wildfires are possible. A local business approached the City to vacate a road, to expand their footprint. That road is one of three that services a residential area with 200-300 homes. The reduction of egress for residents & ingress for Emergency Response - was the key point on which the city denied the request.

 

[bobbyr]

there are a lot of similar streets that run parallel and her grand/master plan that she promoted at the beginning was to close off ALL of these streets and have one access point that would get a traffic light to handle the traffic from the 2000 houses affected.

 

[rk911]

Emergency vehicle access (fire trucks and ambulances) may be delayed with dead-end streets

i was just gonna post the same. that, IMO, is a huge point for not installng the dead end.

you should be able to get stats from the fire dept or 9-1-1 center that takes the calls and dispatches the rigs.

- average response time overall in town and in the district
- average response time in the your neighborhood
- predicted average response time if thru streets are closed

for the last two you'll need to narrow it down to just the rigs assigned to be first out the door in your neighborhood. if the engine, truck or medic that normally responds is busy the next available rig will be sent. that could either be the second rig in the same firehouse or a rig from a neighboring house. fill-in equipment is just naturally gonna take longer if coming from a neighboring house.

appeal to your neighbor's sense of safety. when your house is on fire or one of your family is suffering a medical emergency time speeds up in the mind of the caller. i had many a complaint that the PD or FD took double-digit minutes to arrive. in every case when i pulled the tapes i found the response time to be good given the circumstances. the size of a fire doubles every minute so an extra 1-3 minute response time due to no thru streets could be disasterous.

talk to the fire chief, dep. chief or battalion chief and see what they think. same with the PD.

 

[RetireeRobert]

there are a lot of similar streets that run parallel and her grand/master plan that she promoted at the beginning was to close off ALL of these streets and have one access point that would get a traffic light to handle the traffic from the 2000 houses affected.

ONE access point for 2000 houses? That sounds nuts to me.

If that is accurate, then THAT POINT needs to be made clear to city/county officials who need to approve or nix the plan.

 

[MrsHaloFIRE]

Good Lord. Aren't there codes that says if aha amount of pop have to move through an intersection is has too be abc lanes wide? You cant bottleneck a huge development BC one lady is good at organizing.

there are a lot of similar streets that run parallel and her grand/master plan that she promoted at the beginning was to close off ALL of these streets and have one access point that would get a traffic light to handle the traffic from the 2000 houses affected.

 

[pb4uski]

this is one of our large points to be made in the meeting this week...we have 4 different EMS incidents on our street during the Pilot including my covid 'can't breathe' incident where i was waiting for ambulance with oxygen and listened to the sirens as the ambulance and fire truck made the extra drive to get to me (3 minutes or so)

I think that is your biggest hook to oppose her plan.... her plan definitely increases emergency response times and should probably be rejected on solely that basis. It also could increase the city's litigation risk.

Have you discussed the proposed plan with the police chief or the fire chief?

At a minimum, I would provide the council with printouts of travel time from nearby fire stations to various addresses in the neighborhood as currently and as proposed so they can see the difference.

 

[kgtest]

I’ve worked trying to get things done in city government. I find it to be a numbers game or pet project. She seems to understand that and I expect she is convincing millinals to work with her since they maybe the easiest to convince for this project. Typically, 10 plus people showing up for any city meeting in support of a program represents an army.

Given the information shared, you don’t need her exact quotes. You need to focus on the consequences of this project as you see them. And the importance for your supporters to show up for the meeting. And get as many as time allows to speak using YOUR talking points. Create a talking sheet for them.

Again, the information you shared is vague but it sounds familiar so this suggestion is my attempt to fill in the blanks.

THIS! DELAY AND bring the army each time...might be an army of different people as they ebb and flow come and go, but get the consistent anti-dead-end street army to show up with consistent sensible arguments against the said plan. The one thing that defeats someones brilliant plan, is someone else who comes along with one even more brilliant!

 

[jollystomper]

Given the information shared, you don’t need her exact quotes. You need to focus on the consequences of this project as you see them. And the importance for your supporters to show up for the meeting. And get as many as time allows to speak using YOUR talking points. Create a talking sheet for them.

Again, the information you shared is vague but it sounds familiar so this suggestion is my attempt to fill in the blanks.

+1


If she has the drive and energy, you need to exert the same (and perhaps more) drive and energy to oppose her. If she knocked on 100 doors, you (and perhaps anyone you can recruit) need to knock on 200, etc. Just posting on social media will not be enough.

AND... make it about the facts, not her age, gender, or the age of those you perceive are supporting this.

 

[Keim]

I had a situation a few years ago with potential legal repercussions, where I wanted to get certain facts out to certain people without my name attached. This came in handy:

https://anonymousemail.me/

 

[dmpi]

Look for situations where the one access point can be blocked. Car accidents, fallen tree, land slide, treacherous during the winter, etc. Use 'safety' as your driving point. Remember you're not just talking for yourself; you're concerned about all the other people in the neighborhood.

 

[38Chevy454]

Sounds like the organizing lady is a classic NIMBY (not in my back yard). Move the traffic to be on someone else's streets. Make it their problem, not hers.
When I used to work as engineer, one of the main things to avoid is fixing one problem while creating another. The OP's situation seems to fit this.
Seems the emergency response or evacuation capability is being put into unsafe level. That is the way to fight this, use facts and data - not opinions.

 

[Scrapr]

About 20 years ago our old neighborhood had something similar. 3 dead ends to a property that was going to develop new homes. One of the streets got together & tried to have the other 2 streets to connect but theirs to dead end. We went through likely 15 iterations of 1, 2 or 3 streets connecting. The one street tried to play off the middle street against ours. Ultimately it came before the City Council who endorsed full connections. It was a tense time. I don't have any advise