New hybrid/electric car advice

[explanade]

If I actually wanted a hybrid, and was going to give up my legacy cars, I would look at the new Chevy Volt (back seat room is not that great though)..

Main thing against the Volt and the Bolt are that they are Chevies.

In the next 2-3 years, a lot of manufacturers will put out EV models.

Then there's the talk about self-driving cars.

 

[Midpack]

I just sold my Escape hybrid. Most of the questions I got asked were about the battery, which was 10 years old. It sold for about the same price as a non-hybrid. Fortunately, I bought it for a really good price.

Our '07 Camry Hybrid is 10 years old now, with 120K miles, and it still runs perfectly - batteries too. We've been pleasantly surprised!

 

[GTFan]

Main thing against the Volt and the Bolt are that they are Chevies.

The Volt has been very reliable since it is an electric drivetrain car (the gas engine is only a generator). Many have gone over 200k with no real battery degradation or drivetrain issues. The Bolt should be even better.

You've got to get past this domestic junk with electrics, it's a different world.

 

[GTFan]

Leased batteries?

What I just gathered is that Nissan has a warranty on the batteries and will replace them if the range falls short below a certain point such as 70% of the original value. Some cars may be getting close to that and the warranty is about to expire. That will drive down the price because a new battery pack costs around $6000.

On the Web, some say that a good used car plus a fresh battery with a new warranty is still cheap at $14K, compared to a new Leaf. Sounds reasonable.

They don't lease the batteries in the Leaf, but the passive battery management in them has not been as good as in other electrics such as the Volt. It's not uncommon to see used Leafs with 20-30% battery degradation but not common in other models that have active cooling and more conservative capacity usage.

One of the main reasons why the Leaf is so cheap used, but a 50-mile Leaf is still a very good city or local use car.

 

[Chuckanut]

Our '07 Camry Hybrid is 10 years old now, with 120K miles, and it still runs perfectly - batteries too. We've been pleasantly surprised!

Before I bought my hybrid, I looked at several makes and models. There was no doubt in my mind that as far as Hybrid technology goes Toyota was the leader and they really nailed it. As of today I have not seen anything that would change that opinion.

Interestingly, with diesels under suspicion in Europe for fudging emissions results, I read that the hybrid market there may soon see a big increase in sales in that part of the world. Fuel is still an expensive commodity there.

 

[GTFan]

Make sure to drive a Ford Focus Electric FFE. We had one and loved it, a bit of a cheap Tesla for the driving feel but limited to 75-80 miles. We replaced it with a Ford Fusion Energi, a plug in hybrid. Only get 25 miles on electric but about 7k mi of 10k mi have been electric but we no longer have any range concerns. A used Leaf or FFE is a good way to go but if you have any range concerns then a plug in hybrid is a good idea, they really just work and I don't look for charging stations anymore, just charge at home. In any case you will want a 240v charging system.

Biggest problem with the C-Max and Fusion Energis is the huge amount of space taken up in the trunk with the battery because the cars weren't designed as electrics. I mean it's just massive, half the trunk is gone.

I test-drove a C-Max Energi and was appalled at how dog-slow it was, would assume that the Fusion has to be better than that pig. The Volt is a way better car than either of the Fords for the same money, IMO. It is designed and well-built as an electic-first car and has a good amount of pep.

Disagree with need for 240v charging for plug-in hybrids at home, btw. They don't have enough capacity to warrant the expense given that an overnight 110v charge will usually replenish the battery. It's really only needed for full electic cars such as the Bolt or Tesla.

 

[Chuckanut]

They don't lease the batteries in the Leaf, but the passive battery management in them has not been as good as in other electrics such as the Volt. It's not uncommon to see used Leafs with 20-30% battery degradation but not common in other models that have active cooling and more conservative capacity usage.

The ghost of Renault strikes again!

 

[explanade]

The Volt has been very reliable since it is an electric drivetrain car (the gas engine is only a generator). Many have gone over 200k with no real battery degradation. The Bolt should be even better.

You've got to get past this domestic junk with electrics, it's a different world.

I think the Volt is probably the best all-around car in this space, so you don't have to worry about range.

It's better than the BMW i3 for instance when it comes to range.

But my problem is with the styling and the quality of the interior materials, fit and finish, build quality. All those things American cars have done poorly at historically.

BTW Tesla isn't so great on those fronts either, considering the prices they're asking.

I'm considering leasing an ICE for 3 years and then see what happens afterwards.

 

[travelover]

Our '07 Camry Hybrid is 10 years old now, with 120K miles, and it still runs perfectly - batteries too. We've been pleasantly surprised!

As far as I know, the Escape battery was fine when I sold it. My take away was that there was no recouping the premium paid for the hybrid feature. As I mentioned, I got it for a super good price, but it would be disappointing to pay a premium price only to see it disappear at resale.

 

[NW-Bound]

They don't lease the batteries in the Leaf, but the passive battery management in them has not been as good as in other electrics such as the Volt. It's not uncommon to see used Leafs with 20-30% battery degradation but not common in other models that have active cooling and more conservative capacity usage.

One of the main reasons why the Leaf is so cheap used, but a 50-mile Leaf is still a very good city or local use car.

Thermal problems with the battery make it an iffier proposition for a place as hot as the US Southwest.

... Interestingly, with diesels under suspicion in Europe for fudging emissions results, I read that the hybrid market there may soon see a big increase in sales in that part of the world. Fuel is still an expensive commodity there.

Europe does not have cheap electricity either. They do not have much coal, nor want it, and only France does not mind nuclear power. Perhaps EVs can be used to soak up some wind and solar power, but do they have an excess of it? And how steady is that power source? Imagine having a power brownout and not being able to drive your car at the same time.

...Disagree with need for 240v charging for plug-in hybrids at home, btw. They don't have enough capacity to warrant the expense given that an overnight 110v charge will usually replenish the battery. It's really only needed for full electic cars such as the Bolt or Tesla.

I saw that the Leaf can plug into the same 240V outlet as a common cloth dryer. It should not cost that much to put one in the garage or carport.

 

[Breedlove]

Probably get shot for this , but check out the Hyundai's and Kia's . Right now they are building in my opinion the best cars for the money . The warranty's 10 years . Hyundai / Kia is a real force to be known in the auto business.

 

[Midpack]

Probably get shot for this , but check out the Hyundai's and Kia's . Right now they are building in my opinion the best cars for the money . The warranty's 10 years . Hyundai / Kia is a real force to be known in the auto business.

I won't shoot you, but Hyundai/Kia is playing catchup on hybrids and alternatives. But I am sure they will master the tech if they haven't already.

 

[FIREmenow]

I think the upcoming Volvo XC40 T5 looks stunning. In the US sometime next year, I think.

 

[ERD50]

... Europe does not have cheap electricity either. .... .

True, but even expensive electricity will be cheaper per mile than gasoline, especially their expensive gasoline.

Which has always puzzled me - with the generally shorter drives, and expensive gas, why EVs have not been far more popular in Europe. It seems the only areas where they rally catch on is where they are heavily subsidized.

.... They do not have much coal, nor want it, and only France does not mind nuclear power. Perhaps EVs can be used to soak up some wind and solar power, but do they have an excess of it? And how steady is that power source? Imagine having a power brownout and not being able to drive your car at the same time. ...

Yes - as I've mentioned before, a significant fleet of EVs means a significant addition demand (marginal demand). And as they are trying to go renewable as fast as they can, any added demand just nips into that. The extra marginal power must come from other sources.

Separately, I've also read that Europe considered trees a 'renewable' resource, so they've been cutting down forests and burning them for power. All sorts of problems with that approach.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Probably get shot for this , but check out the Hyundai's and Kia's . Right now they are building in my opinion the best cars for the money . The warranty's 10 years . Hyundai / Kia is a real force to be known in the auto business.

They don't have to be the best, just the ones willing to swap the battery pack for me for 10 years, then I am interested. I would read the warranty fine print very carefully.

 

[NW-Bound]

True, but even expensive electricity will be cheaper per mile than gasoline, especially their expensive gasoline.

Which has always puzzled me - with the generally shorter drives, and expensive gas, why EVs have not been far more popular in Europe. It seems the only areas where they rally catch on is where they are heavily subsidized.

Yes - as I've mentioned before, a significant fleet of EVs means a significant addition demand (marginal demand). And as they are trying to go renewable as fast as they can, any added demand just nips into that. The extra marginal power must come from other sources...

Another big thing is infrastructure for power distribution. Throughout much of Europe, the western side included, AC is considered a luxury. Now, imagine plugging in a Tesla that sucks up more power than even a central AC in an American home.

 

[Chuckanut]

Europe does not have cheap electricity either. They do not have much coal, nor want it, and only France does not mind nuclear power. Perhaps EVs can be used to soak up some wind and solar power, but do they have an excess of it? And how steady is that power source? Imagine having a power brownout and not being able to drive your car at the same time.

If the hybrid runs on gasoline like most sold in the USA, the source of electric power generation is the engine. No problem there. Plug-in hybrids would lose some of their advantage but should still work if I understand them right.

 

[aja8888]

Then there's the talk about self-driving cars.

Talk is cheap. The big stumbling block will be risk management in a world full of idiot drivers and situations with unintended consequences.

 

[NW-Bound]

If the hybrid runs on gasoline like most sold in the USA, the source of electric power generation is the engine. No problem there. Plug-in hybrids would lose some of their advantage but should still work if I understand them right.

Hybrids make sense because the assist from the electric motor allows good acceleration with a smaller gas engine. Also, the regenerative braking recovers some of the power when stopping. When you are cruising, there is no occasion for regenerative braking. There is no need for acceleration either, like in stop and go traffic. So, just a smaller gas engine works better and is cheaper than anything fancy.

European cars are small, and use smaller engines. They already have better gas mileage than American cars. Europeans also use more public transportation, and their cars are used for longer trips or in rural areas. Hence, what works here in the US may not make economical sense there. While Americans think of driving 5 miles with a plug-in EV or hybrid car to the grocery store, Europeans think of walking home from the metro with a small sack of groceries.

 

[explanade]

Diesels are popular in Europe, because of fuel economy and small diesel cars have good low-end torque so they're zippy.

But now with the VW emissions scandal, maybe they're becoming disenchanted. The other issue is pollution in big cities like London and Paris. There's talk about banning them in city centers, which would leave an opening for EVs, which are also quiet to boot.

 

[HFWR]

From my limited experience, a Prius is an econobox with a hybrid system, likely similar to a Corolla, only with a hefty premium. Since I'm a low-mileage driver, except for the occasional roadtrip, I doubt I'll come anywhere close to breaking even on fuel savings, especially with sub-$2/gal. Of course, given that I went from a pickup getting 15mpg to a Prius getting 50mpg, I'm certainly generating less localized pollution, important in that DFW spends much of the summer at level Orange. And I don't mind the $15-18/mo gas. So, arguably greener, though not a big cash saver for a low-mileage driver and with low gas prices.

 

[ERD50]

Another big thing is infrastructure for power distribution. Throughout much of Europe, the western side included, AC is considered a luxury. Now, imagine plugging in a Tesla that sucks up more power than even a central AC in an American home.

I don't think it's that big a deal. A Leaf, or plug in hybrid doesn't take that much power to charge, since you aren't trying to store 200 miles range and high performance. And most charge at night, when the grid is more/less idling.

-ERD50

 

[Montecfo]

Which has always puzzled me - with the generally shorter drives, and expensive gas, why EVs have not been far more popular in Europe. It seems the only areas where they rally catch on is where they are heavily subsidized.

-ERD50

Well, yes. And even with subsidies in US, it is far from a given that these cars mean reduced overall cost. it is more the perception or illusion that they are "green". Can make financial sense for certain vehicles and especially at higher annual mileage.

Perhaps this will change with greater adoption, perhaps not.

 

[NW-Bound]

In planning for my upcoming road trip through Europe this summer, I looked for apartments and townhouses on Airbnb, and found how difficult it could be to get a place with a parking spot. It is only in the countryside such as in Tuscany that such as a spot is guaranteed.

In the cities, it is rare that residents have private parking spaces. For them to use an EV, there will have to be millions of charging stations on the public streets.

 

[explanade]

In the cities they have good local transport.

In the country side or traveling between cities, they have good train networks, cheap and inexpensive.

Of course they incentivize you not to drive, with high gas taxes and also the good, fast intercity highways are all toll roads.

Yes parking is a big problem in all the cities. And in Italy, they basically bar cars from city centers with the ZTL zones. You enter a ZTL and your plate gets photographed and you will get bills, each time you cross. If you're staying at a hotel, they can contact the police and register your license plate for the duration of your stay in many cases.

And it isn't only because they're hostile to cars. They just want less congestion in these cities which have existed for hundreds of years, with many streets not built to accommodate car traffic.