Puerto Rico

[imoldernu]

The CIA factbook may give a better picture of Puerto Rico than what we may imagine... particularly with regard to the economy, and what it may take for the Island to recover. Note the high reliance on 'services".

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/rq.html

As for leaving the island. Consider how many ships it would take, moving 2000 persons at a time... traveling nearly 1000 miles...to relocate 3.5 million persons.

Consider how many MRE it would take to feed 3.5 million persons for several months.

The food production in Puerto Rico is mostly limited to things like bananas, coffee, and chickens. Raising grain is but a small part of the local food supply. Even there, the salt water and mud will limit production for years.

Where do millions of people go, even if they can afford to get there? Imagine the population of Miami, (three times over), being transported to Washington DC.

Then there's that little part of the water problem that we don't talk about... where does the water go, after it's used? Hint... think sewer.

We can only hope that the clean up and return to some sort of normalcy will return as soon as possible. At the very least, let's hope that the U.S. can help to save the lives of its' own citizens, and be thankful that it's not the situation that exists in Yemen, where 4 million children are at imminent... weeks, months... risk of starvation.

Sorry if this sounds maudlin, but it's the real world.

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

The CIA factbook may give a better picture of Puerto Rico than what we may imagine... particularly with regard to the economy, and what it may take for the Island to recover. Note the high reliance on 'services".

(

Wow, 357,000 dont EVER have electric.

 

[Henry Lili]

Just talking with a friend about this today. Lester Holt and the NBC national news reported from San Juan last night. It's so confusing the information coming out of PR. I hear, military ships are brining in food etc. Power companies from as far as NYC are both on the ground and more on the way etc. The reality seems to be a unfathomable amount of destruction.... And a very long road to some type of recovery though not likely to recover fully for a very long time.

 

[Senator]

I always wonder why the Caribbean islands are not more like Hawaii. Granted, the Caribbean islands are not a state, but Hawaii seems to be a vibrant economy. They had the largest cattle ranch in the world at one point. They have power plants. For the most part, no one lives without electricity. Hawaii has plenty of fresh water.

All the islands are tropical and should be able to generate tourism funds. Hawaii is MUCH more isolated and expensive to get there, yet seems to have better capitalized on the tourists more efficiently.

Cuba used to be the playground of the world, now is in third world status. Maybe PR is the next one to be relegated to a third world rung? Or will PR invite business in to capitalize on the sunshine and cheap labor? Does PR value their environment or ?? too highly at the expense of not building more hotels and providing jobs and capital for improvement? Or is PR too corrupt that business do not want to invest there?

I suspect that the profitable businesses will move in again if they have the opportunity to do so, and marginal businesses will take the opportunity to leave. In the long run, PR will benefit from this event. Billions of dollars will be spent on millions of people. People will get new homes provided for them, better than their home that got destroyed.

PR may take years to fully recover. Biloxi, MS was hit hard by Katrina and is not 100% recovered either. Yet, Biloxi is intact and functioning for all practical purposes.

 

[brewer12345]

There ARE virtually unlimited resources that can be called into play.

And they have NOT been and there is no sign they WILL be in time to prevent many deaths.

The administration won't even waive the damned Nones Act. Amazing.

 

[jollystomper]

I always wonder why the Caribbean islands are not more like Hawaii.

One potential reason is that many of the Caribbean islands were colonies that in the past were more exploited, and slavery did exist there, so the locals and imported slaves did not control their own destiny for a while. Whereas Hawaii, being much more isolated, had a much longer history of independence, and any battles over it were more due to its strategic location.

 

[meierlde]

One of the problems PR has is similar to small towns in the 48 states, young folks move for better opportunity, which since they are US citizens does not require immigration approval. As a result PR is an aging society much like rural Japan, and indeed many small towns in the US. In fact if you count children born of PR parents in the 50 states as Puerto Rican there are more Puerto Ricans living in the 50 states than PR.

 

[Senator]

The administration won't even waive the damned Nones Act. Amazing.

I suspect you mean the Jones act, not Nones act. It is not the administration that waives an Act. It is Congress.

Among other things, the Jones Act requires that domestic shipping be conducted by U.S.-owned, U.S.-made ships staffed by American crews. That means, for example, that all food from the mainland—and Puerto Rico imports 85 percent of what it consumes—must be brought in U.S. ships.

 

[brewer12345]

I suspect you mean the Jones act, not Nones act. It is not the administration that waives an Act. It is Congress.

Yes, the antiquated, protectionist garbage that is the Jones Act. Typing on a phone is error prone.

 

[Fermion]

The original reason for the Jones act was that in an act of wartime you did not want all of the coastal commerce ships to be of foreign origin (because they might be withdrawn leaving you suddenly with a strategic lack of coastal supply ships). It made sense, maybe doesn't make sense now (but maybe still makes a little bit of sense).

 

[dtbach]

Since PR doesn't pay Federal Taxes, why should they expect Federal $$ to rebuild? I'd rather see Texas and Florida be ahead of the line for relief since they at least have paid into the FEMA system.

 

[Fermion]

Since PR doesn't pay Federal Taxes, why should they expect Federal $$ to rebuild? I'd rather see Texas and Florida be ahead of the line for relief since they at least have paid into the FEMA system.

They pay some taxes. Not federal income tax but they do pay SS tax and a form of income tax to the PR government.

They really should become a state though. They keep voting no (or at least not overwhelmingly yes). I agree it is hard to get behind full support over true states when they don't *really* want to be a full part of the USA. The last vote was really close though.

 

[Senator]

They really should become a state though. They keep voting no (or at least not overwhelmingly yes). I agree it is hard to get behind full support over true states when they don't *really* want to be a full part of the USA. The last vote was really close though.

If they become a state, where am I going to go when I win a big lottery prize?

The Powerball jackpot is at $1.5 billion and rising, easily ballooning to the biggest lottery prize of all time—which actually raises the value of a single ticket. But unless the winner is Puerto Rican (no federal income taxes or territorial tax on gambling winnings), he is also likely to have to pay taxes of equally historical significance.

 

[brewer12345]

More Americans live in PR than in over 20 states.

 

[Sunset]

One potential reason is that many of the Caribbean islands were colonies that in the past were more exploited, and slavery did exist there, so the locals and imported slaves did not control their own destiny for a while. Whereas Hawaii, being much more isolated, had a much longer history of independence, and any battles over it were more due to its strategic location.

PR has had about 150 years to get on with it, controlling their destiny, seems long enough to have turned the country into an industrial power.

Maybe in many ways living in paradise is a strong dis-incentive to really try hard ?

 

[Calico]

The administration won't even waive the damned Nones Act. Amazing.

And yet, the Jones Act was waived after Harvey and after Irma.

From the Washington Post, 9/25/17:
"DHS waived Jones Act restrictions during Harvey and Irma in order to move oil more quickly to the East Coast and make up for the loss of pipelines. New York Rep Nydia Velazquez has asked for a Jones Act waiver for Maria."

 

[Senator]

And yet, the Jones Act was waived after Harvey and after Irma.

From the Washington Post, 9/25/17:
"DHS waived Jones Act restrictions during Harvey and Irma in order to move oil more quickly to the East Coast and make up for the loss of pipelines. New York Rep Nydia Velazquez has asked for a Jones Act waiver for Maria."

Those are US States. PR is not a state. I suspect that the Jones Act will indeed be waived.

PR already gets a tremendous amount of money from the Federal Government, much more on a per-capita basis than any other US state. There is a huge problem with PR finances.

If you had a brother in law with the PR mentality, you would not give him money either.

 

[Aerides]

DHS has denied the request to waive the Jones Act for PR. Congress asks, DHS decides:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...for-puerto-rico-shipping-waiver-idUSKCN1C12UI

And I don't care about taxes, or who pays what. ICU's in hospitals have no power and citizens are dying.

 

[Senator]

DHS has denied the request to waive the Jones Act for PR. Congress asks, DHS decides:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...for-puerto-rico-shipping-waiver-idUSKCN1C12UI

And I don't care about taxes, or who pays what. ICU's in hospitals have no power and citizens are dying.

Maybe even with the Jones act waived, it would make no difference. From the article you posted, it seems that PR has other issues that maybe should have been addressed earlier.

In catastrophes, everyone wants help, but sometimes the help does not make a difference. I suspect that is the case with waiving, or not waiving, the Jones Act.

PR is getting plenty of money. They will be fine.

“The limitation is going to be port capacity to offload and transit, not vessel availability,” Moore said.

 

[mpeirce]

Maybe even with the Jones act waived, it would make no difference.

Exactly. The Jones act is basically being used as a political football.

Lack of US flag ships isn't a problem, rather, the PR port capacity is. And beyond that, getting the already existing aid that has been offloaded out into the countryside is an even bigger problem since their road infrastructure is in such bad shape.

 

[meierlde]

Exactly. The Jones act is basically being used as a political football.

Lack of US flag ships isn't a problem, rather, the PR port capacity is. And beyond that, getting the already existing aid that has been offloaded out into the countryside is an even bigger problem since their road infrastructure is in such bad shape.

To boot much stuff moves between the mainland and PR on seagoing barges, not ships, which means that there may not be the relative numbers of US and foreign vessels that exist for regular ships.

 

[Car-Guy]

They really should become a state though. They keep voting no (or at least not overwhelmingly yes). I agree it is hard to get behind full support over true states when they don't *really* want to be a full part of the USA. The last vote was really close though.

I really feel for the folks in PR, but I don't think the US should be looking to add any territories as new states. Don't we already have enough internal problems here in the US to deal with!

 

[Calico]

DHS has denied the request to waive the Jones Act for PR. Congress asks, DHS decides:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...for-puerto-rico-shipping-waiver-idUSKCN1C12UI

And I don't care about taxes, or who pays what. ICU's in hospitals have no power and citizens are dying.

+1000

 

[brewer12345]

Exactly. The Jones act is basically being used as a political football.

Lack of US flag ships isn't a problem, rather, the PR port capacity is. And beyond that, getting the already existing aid that has been offloaded out into the countryside is an even bigger problem since their road infrastructure is in such bad shape.

Jones Act tonnage costs multiples of what market rate is. Is it really the right time to inflict those increased costs on an impoverished and desperate population? Think gouging for water and gasoline after Harvey hit. Same thing.

 

[MichaelB]

Multiple posts were deleted because they brought partisan politics into the discussion.

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