Retail theft and store closings

[JoeWras]

As for the "organized" part of this, here's an unlocked link to a WSJ article about this subject today.

https://www.wsj.com/business/retail...nbibmulvnwx&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

For years, Robert Dell ran a drug recovery program at what was known as The Rock Community Church and Transformation Center in St. Petersburg, Fla. On the side, prosecutors say, Dell also ran an organized retail-crime ring.

The pastor had been working as a fence, the middleman buying stolen goods from thieves and reselling them for a profit, according to prosecutors. Dell was telling people who went to his recovery program to steal tools like drills and pin nailers from Home Depot stores all over Florida and drop them off at his home.
...

 

[mystang52]

I know this will never happen, but maybe this could change the "profitability" of shoplifting: prosecute misdemeanor thefts. Then, have a law on the books that accumulating misdemeanor thefts exceeding a certain threshold becomes felony theft. But for starters, how about recognizing that we have to start prosecuting misdemeanor shoplifting?

 

[explanade]

I know this will never happen, but maybe this could change the "profitability" of shoplifting: prosecute misdemeanor thefts. Then, have a law on the books that accumulating misdemeanor thefts exceeding a certain threshold becomes felony theft. But for starters, how about recognizing that we have to start prosecuting misdemeanor shoplifting?

Then the police might come under criticism for spending too much time on shoplifting, supposedly a nonviolent crime, and not dealing enough with more serious crimes.

 

[youbet]

Look out, Michael. Like me, you dared suggest that there might be economic causes to the store closings besides the moral collapse of society. Stay strong [emoji123] to withstand the incoming fury.

.

I do wonder though if there could possibly be at least a small connection between a high level of shrinkage, fearful employees and customers, skyrocketing costs of attempted security and "economic causes." Or are they completely independent events?

 

[Gumby]

Then the police might come under criticism for spending too much time on shoplifting, supposedly a nonviolent crime, and not dealing enough with more serious crimes.

There is a theory that cracking down on smaller non-violent crimes may change the environment so that even violent crimes are reduced - the so-called "broken windows theory" of policing.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/br...windows theory states,(Wilson & Kelling, 1982)

 

[Chuckanut]

LOL, silly me, I need to catch up with the changing times! Other than groceries, I simply don't go into stores very often.

That is wise.

 

[explanade]

There is a theory that cracking down on smaller non-violent crimes may change the environment so that even violent crimes are reduced - the so-called "broken windows theory" of policing.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/br...windows theory states,(Wilson & Kelling, 1982)

Sure they touted it for NYC especially.

But IIRC, crime rates, specifically violent crime rates, declined all over the country not just in NYC.

And NYC policing was more controversial than simply going after people who littered or committed vandalism.

They paired broken windows with stop and frisk, didn't they?

 

[Gumby]

I understand that there were some criticisms of how NYC did it, but it makes sense to me that allowing people to commit small crimes with impunity will lead to a) those particular people moving on to more serious crimes; and b) others who see them getting away with it, choosing on their own to break the law. And that creates a positive feedback loop.

 

[Car-Guy]

There is a theory that cracking down on smaller non-violent crimes may change the environment so that even violent crimes are reduced - the so-called "broken windows theory" of policing.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/broken-windows-theory.html#:~:text=The%20broken%20windows%20theory%20states,(Wilson%20%26%20Kelling%2C%201982)

I haven't heard of that but it makes some sense to me. Personally, I think many parts of the country have become far to lenient on crimes like thefts, at least from what I've seen on the news. (Actually, hard to believe the open looting I'm seeing sometimes is happening in the US and not in some war torn country)

Don't these store owners have the right to protect their property if the police can't or won't?


I think it's totally inappropriate to just "give them a hug" and let them go. (Sorry I couldn't resist that one.)

 

[youbet]

Don't these store owners have the right to protect their property if the police can't or won't?

Depends on the jurisdiction and what the protective action is as to the consequences of taking that protective action.

IMO, unless there was good reason to believe that the issues will end, probably the best and safest protective action a corporate owner could take would be to close the stores with the issue.

 

[Car-Guy]

Depends on the jurisdiction and what the protective action is as to the consequences of taking that protective action.

IMO, unless there was good reason to believe that the issues will end, probably the best and safest protective action a corporate owner could take would be to close the stores with the issue.

You are probably right but then all the honest citizens (the vast majority) in the area suffer with store closures.

 

[Walt34]

I know this will never happen, but maybe this could change the "profitability" of shoplifting: prosecute misdemeanor thefts.

I do believe the evidence is well established by now what happens in such places as in now-notorious cities in CA where misdemeanor thefts have been "decriminalized" or simply not prosecuted. Thefts increase because they go unpunished. What a surprise!

The state of Illinois is embarking on another social experiment by doing away with cash bail. I think I can predict how that is going to turn out, but I'll just say I'm glad that I don't live in Illinois.

Then, have a law on the books that accumulating misdemeanor thefts exceeding a certain threshold becomes felony theft. But for starters, how about recognizing that we have to start prosecuting misdemeanor shoplifting?

Way back in the early 1970's when I was in college, one of the statistics that stuck with me for some reason was that 90% of the crime was committed by 10% of the criminals. That strongly suggests what to do with that 10%. I've seen nothing since then to suggest that the statistic has changed.

 

[youbet]

You are probably right but then all the honest citizens (the vast majority) in the area suffer with store closures.

Yep. When you live in a society, your life will be impacted by the actions of those around you. I'm definitely empathetic to the local residents, but I don't blame the store owners for the closings.

 

[LateToFIRE]

LOL, silly me, I need to catch up with the changing times! Other than groceries, I simply don't go into stores very often.

That is wise.

Ancillary, but different topic. I actually find that it is much easier to NOT SPEND MONEY if I simply stay out of stores. I don't like online shopping so it works for me. If I'm not seeing stuff I might want, I don't even know that I might want it. So, I don't miss not having it. Because I never knew about it begin with.

 

[Music Lover]

I know this will never happen, but maybe this could change the "profitability" of shoplifting: prosecute misdemeanor thefts. Then, have a law on the books that accumulating misdemeanor thefts exceeding a certain threshold becomes felony theft. But for starters, how about recognizing that we have to start prosecuting misdemeanor shoplifting?

The problem is that laws have been changed to make some felony theft into simple misdemeanors. They are moving in the wrong direction and it's not due to incompetence, it's deliberate.

 

[Andre1969]

But, but, that's almost exactly what stores like Service Merchandise, McDade and Brendle's did in the 80s and 90s.

They had a showroom with floor models that you could touch or look at. You filled out a card, gave it to the clerk and paid, then it came down the conveyor in a few minutes.

Ahead of their time?

There used to be a department store here in the DC area called "BEST" that did the same thing. There was one local to us, at New Carrollton plaza, that I remember going to a few times in the late 1970s. I remember thinking that conveyor belt was the coolest thing.

I don't know when our local store closed, but I'm pretty sure it was long gone before the rest of the company went under.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_Products

 

[Spock]

...
Way back in the early 1970's when I was in college, one of the statistics that stuck with me for some reason was that 90% of the crime was committed by 10% of the criminals. That strongly suggests what to do with that 10%. I've seen nothing since then to suggest that the statistic has changed.

Thus the term "usual suspects". Used at least as far back as the movie Casablanca. Another term that equates to the same thing is recidivism. Also "3 strikes" wouldn't have had a role if it wasn't for repeat offenders.

My wife was in small town law enforcement. Some body would be released from confinement and poof a rash of burglaries would occur. Cops didn't need a lot of detective work... round up the usual suspects and ask some questions that the not-so-good-at-logic would trip over. Confirm with a search warrant and the cases were solved quick.

 

[Affinity4Investing]

...The state of Illinois is embarking on another social experiment by doing away with cash bail. I think I can predict how that is going to turn out, but I'll just say I'm glad that I don't live in Illinois...

Amen. +1 for broken windows policing and +1 for 3 strikes laws (as others have mentioned). Both of proved positive. The bail reforms are already producing their intended results, IME.

 

[Time2]

I still have w*rk pens that are finally running out of ink. Maybe that makes up for those thousands of hours of free overtime I w*rked. Or maybe that's just a major rationalization. Of course, all those pens walked home with me in the same pocket I wore all day in the lab/office, so it's not like I actually intended to pilfer them. I recall returning hands-full of pens from time to time.

Feeling better now.

Our local post office had a pen holder on the counter, but, every pen had a plastic spoon taped to the end of it. I always had to tell someone standing in line, "I came in here to steal a spoon, but it had that stupid pen taped to it."

 

[Time2]

I understand that there were some criticisms of how NYC did it, but it makes sense to me that allowing people to commit small crimes with impunity will lead to a) those particular people moving on to more serious crimes; and b) others who see them getting away with it, choosing on their own to break the law. And that creates a positive feedback loop.

I listen to the morning show on WABC in NYC. I'm in FL. But the story they often discuss is how bad the crime is in NYC. Many are afraid to ride the subways. I'm not there myself, but it seems I would not want to be.

 

[Montecfo]

What do you mean by “decriminalizing crime”? Were there actual laws changed?



You brought up the DAs first.



CA has a threshold of $950 before a theft becomes a felony. But in TX the threshold is $2500.



A couple weeks ago, there were several smash and grabs in some high rent district in Philadelphia where several stores, including an Apple Store, were robbed.



In Pennsylvania, felony theft starts at $2000. So if you steal an iPhone 15 Pro Max in CA, it would be a felony but not in PA.

Yes laws were changed.

DAs were elected who decline to prosecute crimes they disagree with.

Some of these jurisdictions also have no cash bail which puts criminals back on the streets quickly.

Higher thresholds of prosecution, DAs who fail to prosecute, defunded and demoralized police departments and no cash bail all are drivers of higher crime in many cities.

Each of the cities where Target closed stores has one or more of these.

 

[Montecfo]

90% of what we buy comes via Amazon and it is delivered inside our locked garage. Just about everything comes the next day. Maybe our only exception is Home Depot.

It's just so much easier than having to deal with parking, crowds, traffic and the hassle of standing in line to pay. A minor price premium but worth it IMO. First world issue for sure, but......

Yes but we have choices. Areas blighted by crime lack these choices when politicians and the electorate turn a blind eye to crime.

 

[Montecfo]

Here’s a list of 23 stores Wal-Mart is closing thus year (here). Their locations don’t fit at all this narrative.

Walgreens is closing 150 stores (here). BedBathand Beyond closed all its sites.

My guess is the one common denominator they all share is not crime, theft, location, property taxes, pandemic, or rent cost. It’s profitability. As margins are squeezed and inflation continues to bite, retail chains have few options to grow their profit, but they must do so now, and with a growing economy, find it difficult to explain.

Closing unprofitable stores works - over the short term.

Well closing underperforming stores is nothing new. Therefore it is no surprise that stores are closed for a variety of reasons, not a single reason only.

But Target cited theft and organized crime specifically.

 

[Montecfo]

Nobody took pictures of the faces of the thieves?

You don't have to accost them but in this day and age, people are filming everything.

Yes they did. So?

 

[Affinity4Investing]

I listen to the morning show on WABC in NYC. I'm in FL. But the story they often discuss is how bad the crime is in NYC. Many are afraid to ride the subways. I'm not there myself, but it seems I would not want to be.

Totally agree. I think the WABC shows are fantastic and paint a very accurate picture of life in the NYC area, IME. Curtis Sliwa always has accurate information to share as he is frequently in the streets and sees what the news reports, thru rose colored glasses.