Should I Stop A Pro Electrician From Working On My Panel HOT?

[JoeWras]

Does pulling the meter out of the socket disconnect the house from the street without unhooking the big wires?

A few months ago I discussed upgrading my dads 100 amp to 200 amp and the electrician said he could not get meter sockets due to supply problems.

Uh, yes. Pulling the meter is required when an electrician REALLY works in the box, like changing the bus bars, changing the size of the box, and typically for a quality, code-approved transfer switch installation.

I'm pretty competent with electricity, but I don't like adding circuits. I've only added one (smoke detectors), 15 amp. The rest I leave to the pros. I would leave any sort of EV charger circuit to the pros. And if you are even dreaming of pulling a meter, stop. This requires a license and a "permit" of sorts from the utility. Joe Wras or Joe s XM don't have the certs to pull a meter.

 

[joesxm3]

Uh, yes. Pulling the meter is required when an electrician REALLY works in the box, like changing the bus bars, changing the size of the box, and typically for a quality, code-approved transfer switch installation.

I'm pretty competent with electricity, but I don't like adding circuits. I've only added one (smoke detectors), 15 amp. The rest I leave to the pros. I would leave any sort of EV charger circuit to the pros. And if you are even dreaming of pulling a meter, stop. This requires a license and a "permit" of sorts from the utility. Joe Wras or Joe s XM don't have the certs to pull a meter.

No worries. I will not be opening the box or doing anything other than mapping the circuits and measuring the amps of my devices.

I have attached wires to my attic fan and the hood over the stove, but I was very careful to turn off the circuits before I started. I only did the attic fan because the electrician could not come and the attic was baking.

After watching the video about the EV charging circuits melting I decided to learn as much as I can so I can make sure my electrician over builds the circuit to err on the safe side. Best to be an informed consumer, but leave the dangerous stuff to the professionals.

I was just confused about pulling the meter because I thought they might have to unhook the big wires from the street to disconnect the house. I had a cable TV problem and they came and reattached the big wires up near the roof.

 

[JoeWras]

I was just confused about pulling the meter because I thought they might have to unhook the big wires from the street to disconnect the house. I had a cable TV problem and they came and reattached the big wires up near the roof.

The meter is a pretty effective switch in most places. In disaster relief work, we see meters pulled all the time when authorities declare the house unsafe. It makes our work much safer too.

 

[427Vette]

@joexsm3, WADR I suggest that you find a new hobby. Your post is too complicated to deal with (for MSEE me anyway) and IMO a smart electrician will probably refuse the job if you insist on "helping" in the way you plan.

I agree. There is nothing worse than dealing with a customer who has spent hours and hours researching the internet to learn from other internet users who have no idea how to complete the task at hand. I am so glad that I am retired…

 

[ERD50]

Problem solved I know, but for the curious, this video gives a good idea. Of course, he does shut the main breaker off for this tutorial, but start ~ 3:18, and you'll see that he shuts the individual breaker off, and removes the hot wire (which is now dead).

The key is, the contacts for the breaker itself are buried way back, they aren't exposed, you don't screw them down, you don't come into contact with them in anyway. They are rails that are all out of reach.

Earlier, someone asked if you shut the breaker off to plug/unplug a lamp - and that wasn't said tongue-in-cheek. The standard US plug exposes you to more of a shock hazard then replacing this circuit breaker. And plugs are inserted/removed every day by non-professionals!

The only real danger would be touching the exposed leads at the top of the panel. But any pro is going to be aware of that, and it is easily avoided.

-ERD50

 

[Qs Laptop]

I agree. There is nothing worse than dealing with a customer who has spent hours and hours researching the internet to learn from other internet users who have no idea how to complete the task at hand.

I feel sorry for doctors who have patients come in for an appointment that have been consulting "Dr. Google" before coming into the exam room.

 

[joesxm3]

I agree. There is nothing worse than dealing with a customer who has spent hours and hours researching the internet to learn from other internet users who have no idea how to complete the task at hand. I am so glad that I am retired…

I will try my best to stay out of the way. But I will stress that I want to have the circuit over built to be sure it does not overheat.

As far as learning from Internet experts. Probably true for most questions, but I think these guys are reliable.

 

[Car-Guy]

I feel sorry for doctors who have patients come in for an appointment that have been consulting "Dr. Google" before coming into the exam room.

As far as learning from Internet experts. Probably true for most questions,

I think the Internet is a tremendous source of good info. Trouble is there's lot's of bad info too. Applying some common sense in sifting though it, for any specific subject, helps a lot.

 

[Midpack]

I feel sorry for doctors who have patients come in for an appointment that have been consulting "Dr. Google" before coming into the exam room.

A good doctor appreciates a well informed patient, and it’s good for patients to have some grasp of their condition. But I agree a little information, misinformation or endless questions can be an unnecessary headache for a doctor. Fortunately I’ve been happy with most of the doctors I’ve met with, but a few have been wrong…

 

[Car-Guy]

A good doctor appreciates a well informed patient, and it’s good for patients to have some grasp of their condition. But I agree a little information, misinformation or endless questions can be an unnecessary headache for a doctor. Fortunately I’ve been happy with most of the doctors I’ve met with, but a few have been wrong…

Absolutely... I have two doctors that have disagreed on a specific treatment. They don't seem to want to talk to each other to get an agreement so what do I do? Go to a third doctor and get yet another opinion. That's rhetorical.

 

[427Vette]

The reason why he should have turned off the main is liability for the homeowner. Who knows what some previous person has (mis) wired in the house. I am guessing the electrician is bonded but anyone can be sued these days without a lot of logic behind the lawsuit. For instance, did you know you can sue a drug developer who didn't even make, sell or get compensation for a generic drug you purchased? It doesn't have to make sense for you to get sued, so I would have demanded he shut the main off.

Using this logic where do you draw the line? Say you have a carpenter working at your house. Do you demand that he doesn’t hold the guard back on his circular saw to start a cut? What if the saw grabs and cuts his fingers off? Are you liable?Do you demand that the plumber puts on his gloves and mask before he solders a joint so he doesn’t get blood poisoning and sue you? How about a mason cutting stone. He may get lung cancer if he cuts a stone at your house without the proper PPE on. Do you make demands there as well? I realize there are frivolous lawsuits but there is no way to protect yourself from every single thing that may happen. I read things like this and it makes me want to bury my head in the sand.

 

[OldShooter]

...I want to have the circuit over built to be sure it does not overheat ...

That is what the code is for and there is more to wiring than just heat.

 

[TheWizard]

I will try my best to stay out of the way. But I will stress that I want to have the circuit over built to be sure it does not overheat...

The NEC already limits continuous loads on a branch circuit to 80% of its ampacity. No need to try to out think the code...

 

[427Vette]

The NEC already limits continuous loads on a branch circuit to 80% of its ampacity. No need to try to out think the code...

The NEC is a guide to show us the minimum standard of electrical wiring. In other words it’s the poorest job you can do and still pass an inspection. You can always improve on the wiring methods required by “code”. However they have done, mostly over done a lot of the requirements. You are right there is no need to challenge or overthink it.

 

[joesxm3]

I am just proposing code. Breaker x 80% plus multiply by 1.2 for voltage loss at 100 feet of wire. And asking that the calculation be done for the maximum draw of the device even though I probably will not run it that high, but the next guy may if I sell the house. Beyond that just asking for a high quality breaker and that the conduit be metal. Is that so wrong?

 

[TheWizard]

I am just proposing code. Breaker x 80% plus multiply by 1.2 for voltage loss at 100 feet of wire. And asking that the calculation be done for the maximum draw of the device even though I probably will not run it that high, but the next guy may if I sell the house. Beyond that just asking for a high quality breaker and that the conduit be metal. Is that so wrong?

No multiply by 1.2.
Just use next bigger wire gauge for 100' run...

 

[joesxm3]

No multiply by 1.2.
Just use next bigger wire gauge for 100' run...

It comes out the same. That is why I want to use 4awg instead of 6awg.

 

[TheWizard]

It comes out the same. That is why I want to use 4awg instead of 6awg.

Fun article on this: https://learnmetrics.com/60-amp-wire-size/#:~:text=60 amp wire size is,size for 60 amp 220V.

 

[Midpack]

It comes out the same. That is why I want to use 4awg instead of 6awg.

What amperage do you plan to charge at?

 

[joesxm3]

Probably charge at 32 amps or less. But I saw electrician forum posts saying that the building inspector was requiring wiring to handle the max charge rate because the wall connector can be changed via wifi.

 

[Midpack]

Probably charge at 32 amps or less. But I saw electrician forum posts saying that the building inspector was requiring wiring to handle the max charge rate because the wall connector can be changed via wifi.

And you’re going with a 60A breaker?

 

[joesxm3]

Fun article on this: https://learnmetrics.com/60-amp-wire-size/#:~:text=60 amp wire size is,size for 60 amp 220V.

Thanks.

That basically confirms my calculations. To the garage door is more than 50 feet and less than 100 feet. Based on the calculations it would get close to the 3awg wire territory. But since it is not quite 100 feet and I plan to charge at the lower rate I think 4awg is fine.

Also, the wall connector can only attach max 4awg and 3awg is a large price jump. If the pro says subpanel I will do it.

 

[joesxm3]

And you’re going with a 60A breaker?

I think so on the assumption that a 60amp breaker is more rugged than a 50.

One reason for low amp charging is that I have not figured how to get the every 15 minute power consumption data from the power company so I can make sure the max amp draw over the past year plus charger draw does not exceed my 200amp panel capacity. I run 4 window air conditioners and 5 dehumidifiers in the summer.

I am measuring amps on all my devices so I can add up worst case scenario.

However, if the pro says less than 60amp breaker I will go with what he says. I tried to have him over for planning but he was too busy.

 

[ERD50]

Probably charge at 32 amps or less. But I saw electrician forum posts saying that the building inspector was requiring wiring to handle the max charge rate because the wall connector can be changed via wifi.

And you’re going with a 60A breaker?

The wire size must be large enough to handle current rating of the breaker. It doesn't matter what anyone 'plans' to charge at, what matters is what those wires might have to carry before the breaker opens including unplanned fault conditions).

An extreme example to illustrate - some one decides the only thing they are going to plug into a 20A kitchen outlet is their phone charger (very light load). They need to replace the outlet when they redecorate, and they wire it up with some very thin 24 AWG wire. That will handle the phone charger just fine. There will be no problem at all, until someone else comes along and plugs a toaster in. That 24 AWG wire could start a fire with the toaster load.

The electrical code doesn't care what you plan to charge at - if the receptacle and breaker support X current, the wiring needs to support that as well.

Thanks.

That basically confirms my calculations. To the garage door is more than 50 feet and less than 100 feet. Based on the calculations it would get close to the 3awg wire territory. But since it is not quite 100 feet and I plan to charge at the lower rate I think 4awg is fine.

Also, the wall connector can only attach max 4awg and 3awg is a large price jump. If the pro says subpanel I will do it.

Yes, length is another consideration. Also, conduit (if required) must be sized for the wire, to limit heat build up.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

I think so on the assumption that a 60amp breaker is more rugged than a 50. ...

Well, a planned 32A charge would require a 40A breaker, and wiring to support a 40A breaker (again, the wire needs to handle the max current of the breaker, not the 'intended' load). And that meets the 80% of max de-rating for continuous loads.

I really doubt you'd see any nuisance trips with a 40A breaker and a 32A charge (part of the reason for the de-rating, the other is heat build up). Most people would be surprised at the ratings on breakers, there is a lot of gray area. It is a matter of how much over the rating and how long, plus a tolerance to avoid nuisance trips. I'll dig up a spec sheet, but IIRC, you might be able to draw 50 A from a 40A breaker for many minutes, maybe hours before it is guaranteed to trip.


I doubt that a 60A breaker is meaningfully more rugged than a 40A breaker for this purpose, but I don't really know. You'd need to do a tear down for that. I think if you stick with the known high-quality brands, you'd be fine.

-ERD50