The Electric Vehicle Thread

[NW-Bound]

And there is no reason it can't do both, right?

These guys already sell and install remanufactured hybrid batteries for almost every brand, and batteries for the Leaf. Why wouldn't they continue to expand to other EVs?

https://www.greentecauto.com/

Japanese car makers are known for making their cars serviceable. And the batteries for hybrid cars are smaller in capacity, compared to full EV.

Batteries of the Leaf can be opened up easily. They are designed and built that way. But perhaps that's why they don't pack as much energy, and the Leaf does not have the range of other EVs.

Look at the internal construction of the old Leaf battery and the new Tesla battery. A huge world of difference.

 

[ERD50]

Once ICE cars get pass 10-12 years old and major repairs start popping up the car value is less than the cost to repair and most of them end up in the junk yard, just about every city in the US has at least one.

A quick search brings up:

"The average age of a car in the US is up to 12.2 years,"

I wish they had a breakdown of that, I think I found something a while back. Since that's an average, it is including brand new cars too. So there are many cars on the road > 12.2 years old.

I think what I eventually found was an average or median age that a car is scrapped, which is more to the point.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

I thought there were pilot programs to use old EV batteries for things like power storage. So even with 70% capacity after say 15 years, they could still be useful in other functions?

How old are the oldest Teslas, maybe about 10 years old? So how many old Tesla batteries have been repurposed, recycled or just dumped?

Yes, they are just pilot programs.

About Tesla batteries, much of the repurposing is done by hobbyists for their home energy storage. I am not aware of any commercial or industrial applications using used Tesla cells.

But as shown in the earlier video about the new Tesla battery, I think even hobbyists will give up on this.

Regarding repurposing used lithium cells for home storage projects, Australia passed some regulations to put a stop to it, citing fire risks.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
And there is no reason it can't do both, right?

These guys already sell and install remanufactured hybrid batteries for almost every brand, and batteries for the Leaf. Why wouldn't they continue to expand to other EVs?

https://www.greentecauto.com/

....

Look at the internal construction of the old Leaf battery and the new Tesla battery. A huge world of difference.

Just to put a finer point on that, the battery in a hybrid is not that large. It can be fit into the car fairly easily, and placed away from the outside edges to keep it more protected in a crash. And since a hybrid battery isn't all that heavy, it doesn't need to be so low to keep the car from being top heavy. So it doesn't need so much protection from road hazards,

The batteries for a full EV are so large and heavy, and need protection from road hazards and crashes, and need to support the coolant. So a car like a Tesla integrates that battery and its support elements into the structural of the car. Replacing it is just not a simple task.

It's one of the reasons Tesla dropped the swap-able battery pack - it would have hamstrung the designers far too much.

It's like the difference in cars from the old days that had a frame. If something went wrong with a frame member, you could replace it. Nowadays, the car is the frame.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Remember the first Tesla Roadster? People want to keep these classic cars. Sadly, they all slowly get bricked by a worn-out battery.

Because the aging is not uniform among all cells, a battery may stay usable if a bad cell module is replaced. A service shop called Gruber is able to open up a Roadster battery assembly and replace a cell module called a "sheet", which is salvaged from another battery.

It looks to me that if anyone wants to build aftermarket EV batteries, he would start with the original Tesla Roadster. The restored car will have some value, and particularly its battery is more serviceable and more easily duplicated. It is not hard to make a replacement sheet using the common 18650 cells, and some sheet metal.

I guess one still has to worry about liabilities. EV batteries can cause grievous fires, and selling replacement batteries carries more risk than selling a reman'ed automatic transmission or an entire ICE engine.

 

[REWahoo]

Looks like GM's new battery for its Ultium platform is modular. That would appear to offer a great deal of flexibility in sizing the battery pack for various applications. Plus, unlike the Tesla battery in the video above (planned obsolescence?), it should be serviceable if a module goes bad.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/gm-reveals-more-technical-details-of-its-ultium-battery-packs/

 

[NW-Bound]

Looks like GM's new battery for its Ultium platform is modular. That would appear to offer a great deal of flexibility in sizing the battery pack for various applications. Plus, unlike the Tesla battery in the video above (planned obsolescence?), it should be serviceable if a module goes bad.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/gm-reveals-more-technical-details-of-its-ultium-battery-packs/

Yes. On the surface of it, I like this GM battery a lot better.

On the other hand, Tesla engineers are no dummies, so there are advantages in pouring pink gunk over the whole thing.

Still, I think it's better in the long run for society to have a bit less EV range in exchange for repairability and reusability.

 

[REWahoo]

Still, I think it's better in the long run for society to have a bit less EV range in exchange for repairability and reusability.

Yep, I agree.

 

[ncbill]

The following story highlights my concern expressed here on this thread a while back regarding EVs. That is, each of the EV models by all manufacturers so far uses a battery pack specifically designed and made for that model. Once the model is out of production, there will be no more batteries made for it.

With an ICE car, people can do makeshift substitution, hand-build and machine parts to keep an old car going. With an EV with a worn-out battery, the whole thing goes to the metal shredder.

EV batteries are made in a highly specialized assembly line. It is not possible for the EV maker to maintain the line after ceasing production of that EV model. And there's no way you can have an outside factory making aftermarket EV batteries.

And you don't stockpile EV batteries like you do mechanical replacement parts. It's because lithium cells have a shelf life. They don't last forever sitting in a warehouse like a piston, or a bearing, or a camshaft.

Here's the story I mentioned. A Florida young woman bought a 2014 Focus EV with 60K miles for $11K. It worked great for 6 months, then started to have problems. A Ford dealer service shop told her the car needed a new battery which cost $14K, plus installation labor.

Before she could decide what to do, the shop told her that it did not matter anyway, because there was no replacement battery available. They offered her $500 for the dead car.

See: https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/l...n-car/67-46243c70-124b-43e9-9a6e-fca01dc40cc4

Battery warranty on that model is 8 years/100,000 miles.

Is it just out-of-warranty based on age?

EDIT: story makes no sense to me...a battery pack for a 2015 model should fit just fine into a 2014 model.

What if it had been a 2015-18 model still in warranty...is Ford legally allowed to just throw up its hands and say "no battery pack available?"

 

[NW-Bound]

As more EVs are being priced down to reach the mass market, I think we will see more thoughts given to repairability of the battery pack, because it's the most expensive part of the car, plus it's the thing that wears down. People love to boast that EV mechanical brakes last forever due to the use of regen for braking. Brake pads cost $20, so what's the big deal? Let's worry about the battery here.

EVs are still being sold to affluent people. They change cars every few years before the warranty runs out. Yeah, sell the old EV to the poor sucker who cannot afford a new one. Used car buyers like the above young woman are in for a shock when their $11K car got bricked, and sold as junk for $500 after a mere 6 months and 60K miles on the original odometer.

More than a personal loss, there is nothing green about junking a car that should have been repairable. I am a frugal guy by nature, and it bothers me to see this kind of waste.

 

[plex]

Tesla is trying to basically copy the Apple approach. No right to repair, all parts in house, all repairs in house, only their Apps through their store allowed, only their accessories work, and even their own chargers that will later require an adapter.

This approach made Apple a lot of money, but I think Tesla will run into far more push-back, computers and especially phones always had a bunch of unusual ports and were anywhere from somewhat hard to near impossible to repair to begin with. Cars on the other hand have been relatively easy to repair for 100 years, and are probably right near the top of the list for most repair friendly as industries go. I think this will limit Tesla's market share a lot more than Tesla is predicting, but it certainly will have an avid minority fanbase.

I also expect there is much more likely to be standardization laws for important parts like batteries and ports within a decade or so, similar to what gradually happened in the early days of cars. This has already happened to some degree in small devices like phones, and will certainly happen in EVs as well once the market starts maturing/becomes diverse. It is a bit wild west out there in the EV market right now, so it is indeed best to be wary.

 

[Chuckanut]

Yes. On the surface of it, I like this GM battery a lot better.

On the other hand, Tesla engineers are no dummies, so there are advantages in pouring pink gunk over the whole thing.

Still, I think it's better in the long run for society to have a bit less EV range in exchange for repairability and reusability.

You guys are arguing over battery design and the ability to swap out defective cells, without having to worry about model to model differences, etc. I would just love to have one simple USB connector for all my USB devices.

 

[ERD50]

You guys are arguing over battery design and the ability to swap out defective cells, without having to worry about model to model differences, etc. I would just love to have one simple USB connector for all my USB devices.

A bit of thread drift here, but I will cut the USB team a huge amount of slack.

Yes, we have multiple connectors today, but it has been an evolution, with each having advantages over the previous generation. Maybe mini-USB could have been better thought out to move right to micro-USB, but I'm willing to accept there were valid reasons behind that.

USB is so much more plug-and-play and versatile than all the stuff that came before it, that I happily accept their quirks (OK, they should have made them non-polarized before "C", the "which way is up" issue went on too long!).

They also maintained decent backwards compatibility. I just bought a couple external USB-C drives, that come with a little adapter/dongle so I can plug them into my older USB 3 and USB 2 ports (one is from 2009!). I ain't complaining.

-ERD50

 

[aja8888]

You guys are arguing over battery design and the ability to swap out defective cells, without having to worry about model to model differences, etc. I would just love to have one simple USB connector for all my USB devices.

A standardized refrigerator water filter cartridge would be fine too.

 

[NW-Bound]

You guys are arguing over battery design and the ability to swap out defective cells, without having to worry about model to model differences, etc. I would just love to have one simple USB connector for all my USB devices.

Hey, earlier in the thread I was suggesting that we have standardized car parts, down to the fender and door panels. I am a nerd with little artistic mindset, and care about function more than form.

The only thing customizable is the paint color, and you can express your artistic preference by having Home Depot or Sherwin-Williams mix any color you like, and splash it on.

So how do car makers distinguish themselves from the competition? Well, they can concentrate on making their stuff last longer than the next guy. Society will gain more from long-working devices and appliances than from forever changing fashion fads. That's my story, and I don't care if the artistic fancy-schmancy people disagree.

 

[Luvtoride]

Tesla is trying to basically copy the Apple approach. No right to repair, all parts in house, all repairs in house, only their Apps through their store allowed, only their accessories work, and even their own chargers that will later require an adapter.

This approach made Apple a lot of money, but I think Tesla will run into far more push-back, computers and especially phones always had a bunch of unusual ports and were anywhere from somewhat hard to near impossible to repair to begin with.

It worked for Apple and plenty of people (around most of the planet) adopted the technology despite the proprietary infrastructure that they built. Who knows if it will be as successful for Tesla, but plenty of us are "joining" to go along for the ride.

 

[NW-Bound]

Tesla is trying to basically copy the Apple approach. No right to repair, all parts in house, all repairs in house, only their Apps through their store allowed, only their accessories work, and even their own chargers that will later require an adapter...

Yet, these two companies and fans of their products like to promote "greenness". How green is having everything disposable instead of repairable?

 

[Car-Guy]

A standardized refrigerator water filter cartridge would be fine too.

And maybe just one battery to fit all laptops. (Hey it works that way for ICE car batteries, for the most part)

Or how about one type of cartridge for printers. (Well at least they got it right with the standard printer paper, for the most part)

 

[Zathras]

Yet, these two companies and fans of their products like to promote "greenness". How green is having everything disposable instead of repairable?

So you start from a story about a low quantity compliance vehicle by Ford and conclude (erroneously) that Teslas can’t be repaired??
Tesla vehicles can and have been repaired by third parties. This includes battery packs.

True, structural packs will pose issues, however, don’t buy one with a structural pack if you want to avoid the possibility that you might, just maybe, crack apart the pack.

 

[ERD50]

Hey, earlier in the thread I was suggesting that we have standardized car parts, down to the fender and door panels. I am a nerd with little artistic mindset, and care about function more than form.

The only thing customizable is the paint color, and you can express your artistic preference by having Home Depot or Sherwin-Williams mix any color you like, and splash it on.

So how do car makers distinguish themselves from the competition? Well, they can concentrate on making their stuff last longer than the next guy. Society will gain more from long-working devices and appliances than from forever changing fashion fads. That's my story, and I don't care if the artistic fancy-schmancy people disagree.

I'm with you. While that might be a pipe dream, I see how it could happen step-wise.

There's some infamous stories of something like a burnt headlight bulb requiring a $900 bill to replace. The whole fender had to be disassembled, something like that. Those stories are getting more common with all the complexity in the accessorizes, the trimming of weight to meet CAFE standards, etc.

So a car company (or environmental/consumer group) could point that out, to "shame" other companies into doing better. The 'good guy' car company could tout that they designed for easy repair, and maybe put a $ cap on dealer replacement of things like lights, brakes, accessories to put their money where their mouth is.

I include environmental groups, because a car could be scrapped early if a head light cost $900, vs $15 and 5 minutes DIY.

And maybe just one battery to fit all laptops. ...

Analogous to NW-Bound's thoughts on cars, I sure wish I had the option to buy a modular laptop. One I could open easily and replace/expand the battery, drive, RAM, swap the display, etc, and modular enough to repair. I'm fine with it being 1 1/2" thick instead of 1/2" slim. Makes no difference to me. But there just isn't much on the market that I can find.

When shopped for a laptop last year, I really wanted a 17" screen, but it seemed by the time you got there, they were loaded with a bunch of stuff I didn't need/want (high end graphics card, high-end processor, etc). Those just cost me $ and eat energy and battery life and create heat. I wish I could spec out 17" but lower end components.

I use an external 24" monitor, but at equal resolution, everything is smaller on the laptop, and changing resolution mismatches the 'size' of the screens, creating other issues. That would still be an issue at 17", but less so.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

So you start from a story about a low quantity compliance vehicle by Ford and conclude (erroneously) that Teslas can’t be repaired??
Tesla vehicles can and have been repaired by third parties. This includes battery packs.

True, structural packs will pose issues, however, don’t buy one with a structural pack if you want to avoid the possibility that you might, just maybe, crack apart the pack.

Tesla never intended for its batteries to be repairable. And it never repairs its own batteries. Batteries that fail under warranty are replaced. Car owners pay for a new battery after the warranty period.

Yes, some after-market shops such as Gruber Motor have been able to open up the batteries to do some repairs despite difficulties and no assistance from Tesla. However, I am still watching to see any of them can repair the new 4680 battery pack.

 

[Zathras]

Tesla is trying to basically copy the Apple approach.
No right to repair,
all parts in house,
all repairs in house,
only their Apps through their store allowed,
only their accessories work,
and even their own chargers that will later require an adapter.

False,
False,
False,
False,
False,
False.

I am not sure where you get all this.
I know people that run third party repair shops.
The service manuals were recently available for free (not sure if they still are free).
I have personally used third party accessories.
I know of many people that use third party apps for better energy use tracking.
The last is wild speculation. I know my wall charger will never need an adapter. I doubt any current supercharger will ever need an adapter. New superchargers at some point may switch to the CCS plugs. Or, they may have twin cables. Or they may stick with their (better) standard and have adapters to allow CCS cars use the superchargers.

 

[ERD50]

Tesla never intended for its batteries to be repairable. And it never repairs its own batteries. Batteries that fail under warranty are replaced. Car owners pay for a new battery after the warranty period.

Yes, some after-market shops such as Gruber Motor have been able to open up the batteries to do some repairs despite difficulties and no assistance from Tesla. However, I am still watching to see any of them can repair the new 4680 battery pack.

I wasn't sure if they were still in business after their big battery fire last year.

https://insideevs.com/news/541361/gruber-fire-destroys-tesla-roadsters/

This is the second time Gruber Motors is severely hit by a fire after the May 2017 event when 5 Tesla Roadsters and an AC Propulsion tZero vehicle were lost. The CEO says the event is a painful reminder of the intensity of fires involving lithium ion batteries.

“As with a previous fire we had in May of 2017, this fire again consumed the entire building and all its contents, which illustrate the potent nature of Lithium Ion vehicles once they ignite.”

https://grubermotors.com/services/model-s-main-battery-pack-repair/

Apparently so, but it looks like the only battery they will service is the Model S?

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

I wasn't sure if they were still in business after their big battery fire last year.

https://insideevs.com/news/541361/gruber-fire-destroys-tesla-roadsters/

https://grubermotors.com/services/model-s-main-battery-pack-repair/

Apparently so, but it looks like the only battery they will service is the Model S?

-ERD50

Well, I checked, and the man is back posting on YouTube as of 1 week ago.

His recent videos showed him walking around the shop, and unless they were prerecorded prior to the fire, his business has bounced back like nothing happened.

I have always liked this guy.

PS. About repairing Model S batteries, perhaps that's where he has most of his business. The other models are still in warranty.

 

[GTFan]

So someone who has never had an EV says "it's a big problem".

I use these chargers all the time. Whenever I want. It's simply not a problem.

Other people who have EV's report it's no problem.

Who are you going to listen to, the people who have extensive experience on the matter or the fellow who has none?

And... you have a Tesla. This is NOT your problem, and the posts weren't about Teslas. Not to mention that you live in an EV-rich area, and a lot of folks don't.

If you want to claim that the Ars article was written by a liar, go ahead. I don't. I'm just pointing out what others are saying about the state of non-Tesla chargers now.