The Electric Vehicle Thread

[Montecfo]

I did not wish to data support every point I made in my earlier post but I believe I can.

There is actually quite a bit of data to the effect that EVs are often not the primary or only vehicle in a HH.

Short article which includes the data.

https://evadoption.com/multi-vehicle-households-in-the-us-a-huge-opportunity-for-lower-range-evs/

Here is another article from last year which makes the same point.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13504851.2022.2083563

Now the data is not new, but I did not find any newer. Perhaps someone can and further educate us all.

I welcome that.

 

[Andre1969]

I'd imagine there aren't very many households that have an EV as their only car, but let's face it, there aren't a whole lot of single-vehicle households these days, anyway.

But, for multiple vehicle households, I'd imagine that if they have an EV, it's probably their primary source of transportation. It would be the car they go back and forth to work in, run errands, etc, and then charge at home. The secondary vehicle might be something like a minivan, SUV, or truck. Or, once upon a time, that ghost of a bygone era, the full-sized car. Depending on your circumstances, the EV would probably get the most use, but then you'd use the other rig, if you needed to go a long distance, or carry a lot of passengers, and so on. It just seems silly to me to buy an EV, just to let it sit around as a spare/backup vehicle.

 

[ken830]

I did not wish to data support every point I made in my earlier post but I believe I can.

There is actually quite a bit of data to the effect that EVs are often not the primary or only vehicle in a HH.

Short article which includes the data.

https://evadoption.com/multi-vehicle-households-in-the-us-a-huge-opportunity-for-lower-range-evs/

Here is another article from last year which makes the same point.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13504851.2022.2083563

Now the data is not new, but I did not find any newer. Perhaps someone can and further educate us all.

I welcome that.

First link doesn't really support the position... just something about multi-vehicle households creating opportunity for shorter-range EVs, which is true, but I think long-range EVs are so cheap, there's almost no reason for shorter range EVs to be the second vehicle. Maybe the third..

Second link, I can't read the full doc, but it's from 2017 data, before mid-price, long range EVs were even readily available on the market...

Keep in mind that the first mid-priced EVs with 250+ mile range and fast charging was only available ~5 years ago, when the Model 3 was released (and they were much more expensive than today), and multi-vehicle households generally replace one vehicle at a time, so even people that jumped onto the Model 3 bandwagon 5 years ago (like me, my brother, my parents), they would, on average, only be on the market to replace a second vehicle probably around now. My parents just picked up a second Tesla a few months ago, and we just replaced our 10 year old S with a new X. So, it makes sense that MOST multi-vehicle EV owners would only have 1 EV at the moment. Give it another 5 years and you will probably see those 1-EV households become 2-EV households as they replace their ~10-year old second vehicle. I know they exist, but I don't personally know a single EV buyer that went back to a gasoline vehicle.

Today, Tesla updated guidance for EV tax credits and ALL Model 3 vehicles now qualify for the full $7,500 credit. That means, a 272-mile range RWD Model 3 is only ~$32k. If buyers qualify for certain state incentives, it's around ~$30k. Amazing deal.

 

[Zathras]

I did not wish to data support every point I made in my earlier post but I believe I can.

There is actually quite a bit of data to the effect that EVs are often not the primary or only vehicle in a HH.

Short article which includes the data.

https://evadoption.com/multi-vehicle-households-in-the-us-a-huge-opportunity-for-lower-range-evs/

The only data, which came from a survey, that I could find was this bullet point about HH with an EV:

78% of EV owners also have a gas-powered vehicle in their household, yet they report doing a majority of their driving (87%) in their electric vehicle.

This, to me, indicates that the EV is the primary vehicle. If you add the 13% that don't own a non-EV, the percentage of EV owners that consider their EV their primary vehicle rises to 91%.

Here is another article from last year which makes the same point.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13504851.2022.2083563

Now the data is not new, but I did not find any newer. Perhaps someone can and further educate us all.

I welcome that.

That second data source is fascinating, thanks. I am looking forward to digging into it some more.
The Abstract though, is very short (expected), and I am not willing to pay the $50 fee for the full paper.

I was unable to find the information at the original source (Federal Highway Administration), but will dig in more later.

It is possible, since this is 2017 data, which is about when the Bolt, Model 3 and other less expensive EVs came out, that the numbers were much higher then. They certainly don't appear to be now though.

 

[JoeWras]

I love this thread, but it is tiring to read, for perhaps the 70th time, yet another sub thread about how EVs are perfect for every scenario, versus how ICE cars are perfect for every scenario.

Yawn.

The cars are different. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Neither are perfect, neither are disasters.

 

[ken830]

I love this thread, but it is tiring to read, for perhaps the 70th time, yet another sub thread about how EVs are perfect for every scenario, versus how ICE cars are perfect for every scenario.

Yawn.

The cars are different. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Neither are perfect, neither are disasters.

I don't see anyone saying one or the other is better in absolutely every scenario. They are different, but I don't think the strengths are symmetric. EV is better than an ICE in more ways and in more situations for more people -- and the trend is continuing to extend this gap.

 

[JoeWras]

I don't see anyone saying one or the other is better in absolutely every scenario. They are different, but I don't think the strengths are symmetric. EV is better than an ICE in more ways and in more situations for more people -- and the trend is continuing to extend this gap.

I disagree.

 

[JoeWras]

So lots of potshots at EVs for fires. It is a bit unfair because...

Today Lincoln/Ford warns ICE owners to park away from structures due to fires that can occur any time. Over 140k cars involved.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/02/business/lincoln-mkc-recall/index.html

 

[ken830]

I disagree.

Fits the theme of this thread very well.

 

[Zathras]

I don't see anyone saying one or the other is better in absolutely every scenario. They are different, but I don't think the strengths are symmetric. EV is better than an ICE in more ways and in more situations for more people -- and the trend is continuing to extend this gap.

+!

I don't believe anyone has said that ICE is perfect for any situation, nor has anyone said EVs are perfect for all situations.

The big question is, what portion of the market will EVs work for.

For some families, EVs are perfect. But that isn't saying they are perfect for all families.

 

[Montecfo]

I appreciate that EV owners are enthusiasts by and large. It makes sense: they would not buy the car if they did not find that it's limitations are worth it and fit their lifestyles. Great for them. I enjoy reading that because I see a lot of smart people here expressing that view and that makes it interesting.

For me the boring part is when someone wants to tell us all how great these cars are for the environment, can change the global temperature, etc. That is what I was responding to.

But I am quite aware that most folks here like the value proposition of the cars and want to exchange views with folks that are like minded. I do prefer that discussion personally.

And I think most have ignored the carbon blather and continued an amiable discussion about the cars.

Applause for that.

 

[Koolau]

I'd imagine there aren't very many households that have an EV as their only car, but let's face it, there aren't a whole lot of single-vehicle households these days, anyway.

But, for multiple vehicle households, I'd imagine that if they have an EV, it's probably their primary source of transportation. It would be the car they go back and forth to work in, run errands, etc, and then charge at home. The secondary vehicle might be something like a minivan, SUV, or truck. Or, once upon a time, that ghost of a bygone era, the full-sized car. Depending on your circumstances, the EV would probably get the most use, but then you'd use the other rig, if you needed to go a long distance, or carry a lot of passengers, and so on. It just seems silly to me to buy an EV, just to let it sit around as a spare/backup vehicle.

How true about the "big car." I rode 60 miles in my son's T-Mod 3. That was just about my limit. But I've driven my big old Buick 1000 miles with a stop for gas. YMMV

 

[ken830]

I appreciate that EV owners are enthusiasts by and large. It makes sense: they would not buy the car if they did not find that it's limitations are worth it and fit their lifestyles. Great for them. I enjoy reading that because I see a lot of smart people here expressing that view and that makes it interesting.

(Bold emphasis mine)

I don't think you fully get it or you just "misspoke." I want to re-emphasis one point. Today's available EVs are by no means perfect for every scenario (eg. towing a heavy trailer long distances), every category/class, and every one, but for many (dare I say most) of us, there are no limitations that we need to live with. We're not sacrificing anything. We're not compromising anything. We're not giving anything up.

Compared to an equivalent vehicle in it's class, my Tesla Model 3 is roomier and has more cargo space because it's electric. It accelerates quicker because it's electric. Its throttle is more responsive (it's near instantaneous) because it's electric. It's safer (both passive and active safety) because it's electric. Traction control is more effective because it's electric. It's quieter because it's electric. It has a lower CG because it's electric. It allowed my infant to remain sleeping in the vehicle with HVAC running in an enclosed garage because it's electric. It saves me time from refueling several times each week because it's electric. It's way, way cheaper to operate because its electric. It saves me time from emissions testing every other year and maintenance appointments because it's electric. This is just a small list of benefits that are made possible/better because of the electric drivetrain. If I were forced to own/drive a gasoline powered vehicle, I would literally be giving-up all of these benefits and more on top of the Tesla-specific benefits. I can't think of anything I would gain switching from my Tesla to a gasoline vehicle.

For me the boring part is when someone wants to tell us all how great these cars are for the environment, can change the global temperature, etc. That is what I was responding to.

But I am quite aware that most folks here like the value proposition of the cars and want to exchange views with folks that are like minded. I do prefer that discussion personally.

And I think most have ignored the carbon blather and continued an amiable discussion about the cars.

Applause for that.

Assuming you're not arguing against the generally-accepted theory that carbon emissions is a contributor to global climate change. If just look at carbon footprint alone, it's shown in well-to-wheel and cradle-to-grave studies that manufacturing and operating an EV is a lower carbon footprint activity than an equivalent gasoline-powered vehicle. Is that the point you don't agree with? do you not trust those studies or see some flaw in the premise? Because I already cited sources that refuted all of your points. Or is it that you don't think the lower emissions will do anything at all to curb the changes we're seeing due to scale?? What is it? Surely, you don't think it's worse than a gasoline vehicle, right?

 

[Zathras]

I appreciate that EV owners are enthusiasts by and large. It makes sense: they would not buy the car if they did not find that its limitations are worth it and fit their lifestyles. Great for them. I enjoy reading that because I see a lot of smart people here expressing that view and that makes it interesting.….

Your view of EV owners seems to be an off a bit.
In our case we picked up convenience and safety. We face zero limitations that impact us.

I was an EV enthusiast before owning an EV. I am a member of the EV owners club in our state. I have spoken with hundreds of EV owners at EV events. Many enthusiasts became enthusiasts after they bought the car, not the other way around.

There are many reasons to be enthusiastic about EVs. If there is one you don’t agree with please don’t dismiss all the others.

 

[joesxm3]

I find my model Y to be superior, except possibly for a slightly stiffer ride and having to rotate tires more often.

I kept my Acura as a spare, but choose to drive the Y for my longer trips, which are only 100 round trip, so I can't comment on cross country. I have never been to a super charger.

I don't miss going to the gas station every week and dropping $70, nor worrying about where to get an emission test.

I put it in dog mode when I leave my 96 year old mother in the car while shopping. I don't worry about overheating and can check on her from my phone via the cabin camera.

I just ordered FSD for a month and am a bit disappointed to not be offered beta test right away. Autopilot is wonderful, but FSD right now may not be worth the cost compared to free autopilot. I let it drive on basic autopilot on 95% of my highway driving.

I don't care about hugging trees and if my model Y used gasoline but had the same power, torque, acceleration, one peddle driving, safety score, level of electronics, over the air updates and did not need oil changes I would still like it.

Except, having my boiler in the garage, it sprung a gas leak and burned the house down.

 

[folivier]

Below freezing temperatures?

Another question for those in the northern hinterlands.
If you have to park your EV for a month or more in below freezing temperatures without access to plugging in how does that affect it?
IOW if you park it with 50% battery does the car use any battery power to protect it from below freezing temperatures?
And does the battery have to warm itself before driving off?

 

[Montecfo]

(Bold emphasis mine)

I don't think you fully get it or you just "misspoke." I want to re-emphasis one point. Today's available EVs are by no means perfect for every scenario (eg. towing a heavy trailer long distances), every category/class, and every one, but for many (dare I say most) of us, there are no limitations that we need to live with. We're not sacrificing anything. We're not compromising anything. We're not giving anything up.

It sounds like you are ok with your vehicle's limitations, some of which you listed above. That was my point.

Assuming you're not arguing against the generally-accepted theory that carbon emissions is a contributor to global climate change. If just look at carbon footprint alone, it's shown in well-to-wheel and cradle-to-grave studies that manufacturing and operating an EV is a lower carbon footprint activity than an equivalent gasoline-powered vehicle. Is that the point you don't agree with? do you not trust those studies or see some flaw in the premise? Because I already cited sources that refuted all of your points. Or is it that you don't think the lower emissions will do anything at all to curb the changes we're seeing due to scale?? What is it? Surely, you don't think it's worse than a gasoline vehicle, right?

You did not actually refute any point I was making. But as I understand it the thread is to discuss the cars, not to discuss climate change. That was my larger point which I have made a couple of times.

And I think other folks have said this tangential discussion gets tedious and detracts from enjoyment of the discussion.

 

[Aerides]

For me the boring part is when someone wants to tell us all how great these cars are for the environment, can change the global temperature, etc. That is what I was responding to.

Then maybe let that go? Everyone? We all hopefully are aware this thread has a contentious history, and that any discussion on climate - here - does not lend itself to thread longevity.

 

[53anddone]

We own a new VW ID.4, a Subaru Outback with 200,000 miles on it, and a 2018 F-150 with Eco Boost for just me and my wife with an occasional kid home for the summer.

My conclusions:

Daily Driving - The EV is awesome and we will never go back to an ICE for this. I'm even charging it with our solar system.

Medium Trips (500 miles or less) - The EV is quickly winning out here because we have fast chargers being installed all over the place near us. So what if I need a 30 minute stop at a Walmart? What retired guy wouldn't love that?

Long Trips and Hauling Stuff - I am afraid this is where the F-150 wins the battle. I am hoping when it needs to be replaced in 5 - 7 years that there are good EV options in the pickup world but I will believe it when I see it.

Our next challenge is replacing the Subaru. The EV landscape is limited currently so will probably milk it until at least 225.

 

[Montecfo]

Your view of EV owners seems to be an off a bit.
In our case we picked up convenience and safety. We face zero limitations that impact us.

So the limitations of EV's are worth it and fit your lifestyle. I do get that. You may use different words but I do not think I am misunderstanding that.

If you think about it, that is the type of value decision every buyer makes when they buy a car. Every buyer makes comparisons and makes a value judgement in buying a vehicle. And they are trading some features or accepting some limitations in order to get others that they value more highly.

There are many reasons to be enthusiastic about EVs. If there is one you don’t agree with please don’t dismiss all the others.

I am pretty sure I did not do that.

 

[audreyh1]

Another question for those in the northern hinterlands.
If you have to park your EV for a month or more in below freezing temperatures without access to plugging in how does that affect it?
IOW if you park it with 50% battery does the car use any battery power to protect it from below freezing temperatures?
And does the battery have to warm itself before driving off?

There are a whole lot of Colorado owners so they’ve figured out how to deal with these issues. Personally I would not park it anywhere for a month without having it plugged in to at least 15 amp. I don’t think the batteries have to be protected from below freezing temps, but they do have to be warmed up and kept warm for efficient driving and the car does that. Maybe MRG will weigh in.

 

[NW-Bound]

Charging your EV at home, and at night because electricity is cheaper then?

Not in the future. The sun does not shine at night for solar power, I have been saying.

Now, a study from Stanford University says the same. This work was funded by the California Energy Commission.

Once 50% of cars on the road are powered by electricity in the Western U.S. – of which about half the population lives in California – more than 5.4 gigawatts of energy storage would be needed if charging habits follow their current course. That’s the capacity equivalent of 5 large nuclear power reactors...

See: https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2022/09/22/charging-cars-honight-not-way-go/

 

[audreyh1]

Whatever.

The local energy pricing will ultimately determine when EVs charge, and sure that’s likely to change over time.

 

[NW-Bound]

^^^ Or if there's any electricity for any uses, let alone EV charging.

From the above study:

At the local level, if a third of homes in a neighborhood have EVs and most of the owners continue to set charging to start at 11 p.m. or whenever electricity rates drop, the local grid could become unstable...

Of course, laymen just don't know nor care until their grid goes dark. Oh wait, some parts in the country already face periodic blackouts for various reasons, even without EVs.

But it is good that the California Energy Commission realized the work that needs to be done. Somebody has to think about these things.

 

[joesxm3]

I guess that is a good argument to have solar panels to charge your car. But that throws another large up front cost into the mix.

We probably need a new type of car with a plutonium pebble to power it.