Would this help GM, Chrysler (& Ford)

[ERD50]

And government mandates such as 5mph impact bumpers, air bags, bumper heights, emission standards, CAFE requirements, etc. One I was personally involved in was the CHIMSL (center high mounted stop lamp). Can't remember how this became a government mandate but all of a sudden we had to engineer this into every car. You can't believe how much time and effort this took and the dollars required to meet the goals and deadlines all set up by our government. I am not bitching about the requirements, but we had to jump through hoops to make this happen within the time limits allowed. It just makes me sick to think of how much stuff we had to work around that the foreign mfg got a free ride. Sorry, I'll stop!

Please don't stop - this is good stuff you can't get from newspapers or the 10:00 news.

Q - didn't the foreign mfgs need to make those changes to import their cars too? I assume so, so I'm not getting why this was unfair to GM versus Toyota-Honda etc. I don't doubt the timeline and bureaucracy was a problem, although I do think the high stop lights are a good idea overall.

-ERD50

 

[samclem]

One I was personally involved in was the CHIMSL (center high mounted stop lamp). Can't remember how this became a government mandate but all of a sudden we had to engineer this into every car. You can't believe how much time and effort this took and the dollars required to meet the goals and deadlines all set up by our government. I am not bitching about the requirements, but we had to jump through hoops to make this happen within the time limits allowed. It just makes me sick to think of how much stuff we had to work around that the foreign mfg got a free ride. Sorry, I'll stop!

Actually, any new car (foreign made or domestic) sold in the US since model year 1986 had to have one of these lights (so the foreign catr makers didn't get off easy on this one). My 1986 Camry has one. It has been required in new light trucks since model year 1994. This light is credited with reducing rear-end collisions by 4.3%, which is pretty amazing when you consider how cheap this addition was. This could be classed along with some other things (seat belt/shoulder harnesses, energy-absorbing steering columns, side door beams, safety glass, etc) as being unambiguosly of high benefit for each dollar spent. Many other mandates (5 mph bumpers, etc) have been net "losers" for consumers.
Back to the CHIMSL (or "Liddy Light" named after then Secretary of Transportation Elizabeth Dole)--anybody remember how cheezy the first ones were? IIRC, Chrysler just kinda glued it to the rear window on the K-Cars.

 

[haha]

Hmmm, now wasn't Wagoner the CEO over BOTH the GM that makes money outside the US, and the GM that looses money in the US? If he was so bad, how can that be?

Seems like the differences are the US govt and the UAW.

-ERD50

That is the point I thought I was making.

Ha

 

[ERD50]

That is the point I thought I was making.

Ha

Understood. I was just taking it to the more specific topic of Wagoner.

There are plenty of other reasons, most of which were mentioned (UAW, EPA, Congress).


-ERD50

 

[Lister]

Let me preface this by saying that I currently own now and in the past both domestic and foreign cars. I am not one of those brand zealots that will blindly stick to a brand, I go for the best value on whatever class vehicle that serves my needs. However, I am always amazed by the same tired old myths about domestic car quality, mileage, reliability, and lack of sales.

As I recall it was only in about the last year that GM became the #2 car manufacturer in the world, down from #1, which is now occupied by Toyota. You simply can't sell the most cars in the world and not be selling cars. Just look around, there are a lot of domestic cars on the road. Likely varies from region to region and city to city but overall its not like they were not selling.

I will also match the domestic car quality and reliability since the early 1990's that I have experienced and observed with most comparably priced foreign cars as well. Are there some real stinkers out there, sure but that goes for both domestic and foreign. I know this first hand since I often get to do the repairs on my extended family and friends cars both foreign and domestic. And let me tell you then when it comes to actually getting the repairs done the foreign cars are more expensive to do and often more difficult.

But perhaps I am straying from the real problem here. At the end of the day they are just not making any profit off the cars, which is a requirement to stay in business. Definitely some very bad decisions were made somewhere and some of those were definitely UAW based but likely many others were made as well. I do really believe that the best thing for a free marketplace is to let these car companies make it on their own with no federal assistance. If they can't restructure and solve the problem then it is time for them to go.

Cheers,
Mr Lister

 

[FinanceDude]

That quote is a bunch of crap and don't believe it for a minute. For the last four years of my career at the General Motors Tech Center in Detroit, I was in monthly meetings with various Vehicle Chief Engineers and Division Sales Chiefs and all emphasis was always on providing a better vehicle than the competition.

They succeeded on large pickups and SUV's. Sorry, noone can convince me that any Cobalt or Cavalier or Sunfire is better quality than a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic, there's plenty of data to back that up......

Guess the only guy that had it made was Dave McClellan, Vehicle Chief Engineer for Corvette. He had a blank check book and all the "competition" was trying to copy him. No one ever thought it was a given that the public would buy what was produced. I'll give you this, quality on fit and finish was not a top priority until the early 1980's. That's when quality came to the forefront and the Japenese started to made us look bad. I would say that it took us fifteen years to catch up to them and I can't blame the public for switching to the foreign manufacturers. Now we are in the position of having to win back those buyers that left us and that is tough. We are there but it's really hard to convince the American public how good the American cars are. Someone buys a Toyota Camry and it gives them top notch service. Why change to something else. It's a tough road back. Only time will fix it. Maybe the American car will go the way of American made shoes. I don't think any shoes are produced here anymore. Maybe SAS.

Corvette is a LOW production car. High volume cars were the problem, not low volume......

As far as my late client and his comments, well, I can only go on what he told me. He did not specify dates on all he told me, but he's not the kind of guy that would lie for something to do. maybe he was referring to the 1980's. I know he said that GM's brands being sold in Europe were much higher quality than the cars here. Opel platforms were prevalent there and lots of Europeans bought those cars and had great reliability. However, the Cadillac Catera was a dismal failure. Don't get me started on the Cadillac Cimarron experiment.....

I attended a meeting as a guest where Dieter Zietsche spoke. About halfway through he went on a rant about how Mercedes and Chrysler couldn't GET the higher quality parts that Toyota and Honda did, even if they wanted to, because Honda and Toyota had LONG-TERM contracts for those suppliers in place, and there just wasn't enough production capacity to give parts to Chrysler. He didn't seem to be making that up, he was quite pissed........

 

[eridanus]

GM lost billions in Europe in the early part of this decade. Like in the US, they have their good years and their bad years. Bad in the late 90s to 2006, good in 2007 and 2008 (and probably profitable this year as well).

If the US only got rid of the emissions requirements and air bags and mileage requirements, the D3 would be doing OK. How do Toyota and Honda do it?

 

[FinanceDude]

Let me preface this by saying that I currently own now and in the past both domestic and foreign cars. I am not one of those brand zealots that will blindly stick to a brand, I go for the best value on whatever class vehicle that serves my needs. However, I am always amazed by the same tired old myths about domestic car quality, mileage, reliability, and lack of sales.

Show me some hard facts on domestic cars that support your statement and I will listen. I never said domestic cars didn't sell, heck the Big Three have been giving them away for years. They created artificial demand for all their vehicles with $5000 and higher rebates and 6 year 0% financing.........doesn't change the fact that statistics from real world drivers seem to point to the fact that Honda and Toyota and Nissan cars have better overall owner satisfaction that GM or Ford or Chrysler.......

As I recall it was only in about the last year that GM became the #2 car manufacturer in the world, down from #1, which is now occupied by Toyota. You simply can't sell the most cars in the world and not be selling cars. Just look around, there are a lot of domestic cars on the road. Likely varies from region to region and city to city but overall its not like they were not selling.

See my statement above. I remember the early 90's, when Pontiac was selling 500,000 cars a year or more. Now, Pontiac will probably be erased as a brand. That didn't happen because sales are still at high levels.....

But perhaps I am straying from the real problem here. At the end of the day they are just not making any profit off the cars, which is a requirement to stay in business.

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head..riddle me this, if the Big Three didn't have the UAW, would they still be having the problems they do??

 

[FinanceDude]

If the US only got rid of the emissions requirements and air bags and mileage requirements, the D3 would be doing OK. How do Toyota and Honda do it?

Because they pay $45 a hour for labor and GM's cost are $65 -$70.......

 

[samclem]

I attended a meeting as a guest where Dieter Zietsche spoke. About halfway through he went on a rant about how Mercedes and Chrysler couldn't GET the higher quality parts that Toyota and Honda did, even if they wanted to, because Honda and Toyota had LONG-TERM contracts for those suppliers in place, and there just wasn't enough production capacity to give parts to Chrysler. He didn't seem to be making that up, he was quite pissed........

That's interesting. I wonder if maybe Toyota and Honda developed a system of rewarding high-quality suppliers with long-term contracts, while the big-three looked for the very cheapest place they could buy the "good enough" quality pumps, seals, motors, compressors, etc every year.
I think suppliers would make anything the customer wants. But it can't be done instantly, and a customer who has demonstrated a long-term commitment to quality is more likely to have the attention of suppliers than a car company who suddenly gets religion.

If GM wanted people to trust the quality of their cars in 2009, they should have started building good ones (all of them) ten years ago. I really don't know if the Malibu that's getting good reviews today will fall apart in 3 years. Honda and Toyota have earned the trust of the customer.

 

[eridanus]

Because they pay $45 a hour for labor and GM's cost are $65 -$70.......

As I recall, that difference is mostly retiree health benefits and pensions? There's no question that the unions have been greedy but there's also no question that the management has also been greedy. And shortsighted and unimaginative.

What we see with Detroit, and we saw with Pittsburgh, we'll see with other over-promised pension plans in the future.

 

[FinanceDude]

As I recall, that difference is mostly retiree health benefits and pensions? There's no question that the unions have been greedy but there's also no question that the management has also been greedy. And shortsighted and unimaginative.

I think that's pretty much it, the actual workers whether UAW or not are making about the same wage..........

Lee Iococca had an article in the AARP mag last month. He flatly stated: "I don't care WHAT you're making, you CAN'T pay $60 an hour or more and expect to make money".........

 

[Lister]

Sorry, noone can convince me that any Cobalt or Cavalier or Sunfire is better quality than a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic, there's plenty of data to back that up......

We can both pull whatever data we want off of a large number of sources from here to eternity and will never necessarily see eye to eye so it is not my intention to convince you. Real world fact is my son and two daughters all had Cavaliers and Sunfires as some of their first cars. Never had any problems with them whatsoever and they drove them well over 100K trouble free miles. Even had a major accident in one and my daughter came away completely unscathed. Real world evidence of safety and quality. I have also personally owned Corollas and I know a number of folks, including my mother who have the Civic. They are good cars, no doubt about it but when comparing any of these cars there is no significant difference, only preferences.
​

Show me some hard facts on domestic cars that support your statement and I will listen.

As I said we could cite a bunch of "data" all day long and I would not give your proclaimed "facts" any more creedence than you would mine. Its simply a waste of time.
​

I never said domestic cars didn't sell, heck the Big Three have been giving them away for years.

I actually never said you did, my post was not specifically directed at you, it was a general remark.
​

They created artificial demand for all their vehicles with $5000 and higher rebates and 6 year 0% financing

Reminds me of what many foreign countries have done over the years to subsidize their car manufacturers so they could sell or also known as dump their cars in a market.
​

...doesn't change the fact that statistics from real world drivers seem to point to the fact that Honda and Toyota and Nissan cars have better overall owner satisfaction that GM or Ford or Chrysler.

I also am a real world driver and so is everyone I know. Owner satisfcation is subjective and not something I would hang my hat on in making a major purchase.
​

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head..riddle me this, if the Big Three didn't have the UAW, would they still be having the problems they do??

We can only speculate since there is likely a myriad of problems that have put them where they are but based on simple logic the problem that they would have would have to be less because it is one less problem. I also do not think gettign rid of the UAW constraints would make the problem worse.
​

Mr Lister

 

[clifp]

Actually, any new car (foreign made or domestic) sold in the US since model year 1986 had to have one of these lights (so the foreign catr makers didn't get off easy on this one). My 1986 Camry has one. It has been required in new light trucks since model year 1994. This light is credited with reducing rear-end collisions by 4.3%, which is pretty amazing when you consider how cheap this addition was. This could be classed along with some other things (seat belt/shoulder harnesses, energy-absorbing steering columns, side door beams, safety glass, etc) as being unambiguosly of high benefit for each dollar spent. .

Sam did I just read you say something positive about government regulation? It actually save consumers money and saved lives.

Must be some type of April fools joke

 

[FinanceDude]

We can both pull whatever data we want off of a large number of sources from here to eternity and will never necessarily see eye to eye so it is not my intention to convince you. Real world fact is my son and two daughters all had Cavaliers and Sunfires as some of their first cars. Never had any problems with them whatsoever and they drove them well over 100K trouble free miles. Even had a major accident in one and my daughter came away completely unscathed. Real world evidence of safety and quality. I have also personally owned Corollas and I know a number of folks, including my mother who have the Civic. They are good cars, no doubt about it but when comparing any of these cars there is no significant difference, only preferences.

Well, stating that there is NO real difference in quality between a Cavalier/Sunfire and a Corolla made me smile.........so congrats on that........

I see a lot of 10-15 year old Corollas on the road, how many 10-15 year old Cavaliers are still on the road?

 

[samclem]

Sam did I just read you say something positive about government regulation? It actually save consumers money and saved lives.

Must be some type of April fools joke

I knew I was taking a risk.

In a perfect world, the carmakers would make these changes (seat belts, third brake light, door beams, safety glass) and let consumers decide if it is worth paying for. I'd bet all these things might add $500-$1000 to the cost of a vehicle, and most folks would pay it (if marketed correctly--go heavy on the guilt/responsibilty angle). Other stuff, the safety features that only work if everyone does them (bumper heights/bumper under-ride protection, etc) are where the government might have a more proper role.

But, as we are now in the habit of paying for each other's medical bills and medical disabilty from work, etc, and the working power of each individual is increasingly recognized as the property of the community rather than that particualr indvidual, we have a right and a responsibility to assure others don't get hurt. Everyone be careful out there--you're working for the collective!

 

[jug]

GM and Chrysler lost a good share of the domestic market due to building crap. The japanese models spent much less time in the shop and required less maintanence.

This was due to the unwillingness of GM et al to re-tool and start machining the parts better, for better fit, and thus better wear and tear. Closer fit on engines equals better reliability. People did not want to constantly bring cars to rip off mechanics for repairs on systems that were not needed as much with Japanese makes.

Reliability and durability in the average auto is what failed GM and the others. It's that simple. Right now, they are a day late and a dollar short. This is due to incompetent management who thought they "knew" what the country wants.

Their best bet now is bankruptcy court, this way they have a chance of emerging as meaner and leaner companies, there is no other way out.
jug

 

[ziggy29]

I'd bet all these things might add $500-$1000 to the cost of a vehicle, and most folks would pay it (if marketed correctly--go heavy on the guilt/responsibilty angle).

And insurance discounts in some cases. For example, last year I took an online defensive driving course recognized by the state for $25, and when I completed it I get an auto insurance discount for three years that will save close to $150 over that period of time.

When the math works like that, it's easier for people to pay up.

 

[FinanceDude]

GM and Chrysler lost a good share of the domestic market due to building crap. The japanese models spent much less time in the shop and required less maintanence.

This was due to the unwillingness of GM et al to re-tool and start machining the parts better, for better fit, and thus better wear and tear. Closer fit on engines equals better reliability. People did not want to constantly bring cars to rip off mechanics for repairs on systems that were not needed as much with Japanese makes.

Reliability and durability in the average auto is what failed GM and the others. It's that simple. Right now, they are a day late and a dollar short. This is due to incompetent management who thought they "knew" what the country wants.

Mr. Lister will be along shortly to show you how wrong he thinks you are..........

It's pretty easy to list my recent experience with domestic cars:

2004 Town and Country - bought new, needed 2 new rack and pinions in first 40,000 miles, along with tie rods, a new catalytic converter, etc.

1999 Dodge Grand Caravan - replaced rear wheel bearings, power steering pump, rear coolant tubes, etc.

1997 Eagle Vision - what a POS. I spent $3000 in 2 and a half years trying to keep it running........

1996 Grand Prix Se - bought new, tranny went at 27,000 miles, was 3 months out of warranty, and only by screaming at Pontiac did I get 2/3 of the repair covered. Power antenna went at 40,000 miles, and a bunch of little stuff

I guess its time to step off my soapbox for now........

 

[Zathras]

Mr Lister is correct in that personal experiences vary widely with both domestic and foreign brands.
Where he is incorrect is that subjective satisfaction numbers make no difference.
It is EXACTLY satisfaction that plays a large role in what car someone buys. Their own past experiences with both the car and the dealer, then those of family and then friends.

As for reliability, that is one of the reasons I can't wait for EVs to hit the market in numbers. Far fewer moving parts so far less maintainance required

 

[haha]

This may be the strangest argument I have seen on this august forum.

When you guys finish with this, I hope you will you turn your attention to whirled peas.

Ha

 

[FinanceDude]

Mr Lister is correct in that personal experiences vary widely with both domestic and foreign brands.

Agree.........

Where he is incorrect is that subjective satisfaction numbers make no difference.
It is EXACTLY satisfaction that plays a large role in what car someone buys. Their own past experiences with both the car and the dealer, then those of family and then friends.

The point I was trying to make. Why do Toyota and Honda owners REPORT some of the highest satisfaction numbers? Well, because they ARE SATISFIED........

 

[FinanceDude]

This may be the strangest argument I have seen on this august forum.

When you guys finish with this, I hope you will you turn your attention to whirled peas.

Ha

I have NEVER whirled as I peed...........at least that I can remember......

 

[ziggy29]

The point I was trying to make. Why do Toyota and Honda owners REPORT some of the highest satisfaction numbers? Well, because they ARE SATISFIED........

Well, as someone who is in the business of measuring customer satisfaction, it's certainly true that their perception is their reality. If they expect to be more satisfied with a product's quality, they probably will be.

Having said that, I think there *is* still a quality gap (in general) between U.S. and Japanese automakers, though Detroit has been closing the gap in the last few years and a few of the D3's models are right up there in the quality ratings. I almost keeled over when I saw some U.S. vehicles in CR's recommended list in the last couple of years. I thought their preconceived pro-Japanese bias based on past history was too much to overcome.

Still, it's going to be hard to convince people burned by Detroit in the '80s and '90s and who found Hondas and Toyotas to be more reliable to give U.S. autos another chance.

 

[ziggy29]

I have NEVER whirled as I peed...........at least that I can remember......

Given how windy it is here today, I wouldn't even try, whirling or not.