Stuck with a TIMESHARE. Advice how to get out? It’s messing with ER numbers

[Vacation4us]

They are worse than this, unsuspecting children can inherit a TS, and be stuck paying the annual fee for the rest of their lives.

Most folks need to tell their children, to refuse inheritance of the TS.

I have no idea if TS can go after the estate for perpetual annual fees

An Inheritance can be declined. No timeshare company can go after an estate.

My timeshares have saved me thousands of dollars in travel expenses. Timeshares are only an investment in time and travel ie pleasure. They belong in the expense column. If you can’t afford it you shouldn’t buy one.

You should also not buy one from a developer unless you absolutely know what your buying and have decided overpaying is worth whatever you gain.

 

[Sunset]

An Inheritance can be declined. No timeshare company can go after an estate.

My timeshares have saved me thousands of dollars in travel expenses. Timeshares are only an investment in time and travel ie pleasure. They belong in the expense column. If you can’t afford it you shouldn’t buy one.

You should also not buy one from a developer unless you absolutely know what your buying and have decided overpaying is worth whatever you gain.

<edit> [-]Good to know[/-] about the estate aspect, I googled it, and while a person can decline the inheritance, that means it goes to the next in line (either in will , or interstate rules) which would mean other relatives.

Suppose all decline the inheritance, the estate is still responsible for it's debts, which is the annual fee.

Many TS contracts are for perpetuity, so there is no end to the demand for money, and I wonder if they could hold the executor responsible for the debt + costs if the estate is distributed without satisfying the TS debt (which will never be satisfied).

I agree, they are simply an expense, although they are often not sold that way, but sold as an "investment".

We still have 1 TS, which we are keeping and get use out of each year.

 

[SecondCor521]

<edit> [-]Good to know[/-] about the estate aspect, I googled it, and while a person can decline the inheritance, that means it goes to the next in line (either in will , or interstate rules) which would mean other relatives.

Suppose all decline the inheritance, the estate is still responsible for it's debts, which is the annual fee.

Many TS contracts are for perpetuity, so there is no end to the demand for money, and I wonder if they could hold the executor responsible for the debt + costs if the estate is distributed without satisfying the TS debt (which will never be satisfied).

Essentially correct.

The TS people will say it is an asset which has the annual fees tied to it by contract.

If my father had kept his TS and died, I would "get to" inherit 1/3 of the asset. I could disclaim, but then my 1/3 would go to my two sisters. If they both disclaimed, then under state and federal estate law, it would go to various distant relatives according to Idaho intestacy laws. That list is rather long and in my Dad's case and in our small family means about 30-50 people.

The executor would be responsible to hunt those people down and either give them the inheritance or obtain disclaimers from each of them.

If everyone disclaimed, then it would stay in the estate, which could not be legally closed because it has an asset (the TS) remaining in it. If the executor tried to close the estate with the TS remaining in it, they would be personally liable for their "failure" and the TS company could go after the estate and any assets which were distributed from it in order to collect the annual fees, just as if assets were distributed and the estate owed final income or estate taxes.

Of course at that point perhaps the TS people would give up and just take it back, but based on my experience I have my doubts they would even give up at that point. I suppose if you told them at that point nobody wanted it and nobody was going to pay the fees, then there would be nobody's credit to trash and they'd give up.

I don't know why Vacation4us says a TS company can't go after an estate. There are estate laws and a legal system that clearly state that entities can sue estates, and TS companies certainly can sue if they wish. Based on their handle and their previous post in this thread, it is clear they are pro-TS. Maybe it works for them. Maybe they have some interest in or work for a TS company.

 

[Vacation4us]

<edit> [-]Good to know[/-] about the estate aspect, I googled it, and while a person can decline the inheritance, that means it goes to the next in line (either in will , or interstate rules) which would mean other relatives.

Suppose all decline the inheritance, the estate is still responsible for it's debts, which is the annual fee.

Many TS contracts are for perpetuity, so there is no end to the demand for money, and I wonder if they could hold the executor responsible for the debt + costs if the estate is distributed without satisfying the TS debt (which will never be satisfied).

I agree, they are simply an expense, although they are often not sold that way, but sold as an "investment".

We still have 1 TS, which we are keeping and get use out of each year.

No one is forced to inherit a timeshare. Once all assets are distributed and said timeshare company is informed and an estate is distributed and closed who will be pursued?

If you so concerned I am wrong you can will your TS to the HOA of said TS.

 

[Sunset]

No one is forced to inherit a timeshare. Once all assets are distributed and said timeshare company is informed and an estate is distributed and closed who will be pursued?

If you so concerned I am wrong you can will your TS to the HOA of said TS.

But if everyone including the HOA of the TS, declines to inherit the TS, then the estate has not distributed the entire estate and cannot be closed.

An executor cannot simply close an estate while property remains to be distributed.

At a minimum, this forces the executor to try to give away or sell the TS. The same problem the original owner faced.

Meanwhile the estate will still be liable for the perpetual debt obligation.

What fun..

 

[Vacation4us]

Essentially correct

I don't know why Vacation4us says a TS company can't go after an estate. There are estate laws and a legal system that clearly state that entities can sue estates, and TS companies certainly can sue if they wish. Based on their handle and their previous post in this thread, it is clear they are pro-TS. Maybe it works for them. Maybe they have some interest in or work for a TS company.

Ah no. I am not a timeshare sales person and I do not work for a TS company.

Clearly you feel your knowledge and expertise out weighs mine. Shrug.

But are your assumptions based on knowledge or Mr. Google?

I have spent 16 years on the timeshare forum mentioned multiple times in this thread so google on but your advice is without merit , experience,or expertise.

 

[SecondCor521]

Ah no. I am not a timeshare sales person and I do not work for a TS company.

OK, I take you at your word.

Clearly you feel your knowledge and expertise out weighs mine. Shrug.

It differs from yours. I'm willing to change my mind if you (or anyone) provide evidence rather than simple assertions.

But are your assumptions based on knowledge or Mr. Google?

How do you know they are assumptions? They are based on conversations with lawyers, staff of the Attorney General's office in my state, and the Idaho State Real Estate Commission, my own layman reading of the relevant laws, my experience with helping my father get out of his TS, and a business law class in my MBA.

I have spent 16 years on the timeshare forum mentioned multiple times in this thread so google on but your advice is without merit , experience,or expertise.

16 years on a forum means you're at least reasonable to get along with. It doesn't mean you know anything about a subject. You may in fact know a lot about TS, but that doesn't necessarily follow from being on a forum for a long time.

The last half of that statement sounds like an assumption and another assertion, neither backed by evidence of any kind.

I'll let you have the last word.

 

[pb4uski]

So what I'm getting from all this is that if someone who was impoverished and owned a timeshare died and all heirs disclaimed it that the HOA can go after the estate.... but if the estate has no assets then the HOA is out of luck.... they can either accept the timeshare back from the estate's executor and try to do something useful with it or it will lie there fallow in arrears in perpetuity since the estate has no assets to pay the fees.

Given that, I can see the below working to essentially design that outcome, unfortunately it won't help the OP escape their $344/month obligation.

Say someone is elderly and has a timeshare that is burdensome and none of their heirs want it. Transfer all your property other than the timeshare to a living trust so the only thing that you personally own is the timeshare. Then when you die the only asset in probate is the timeshare... if all heirs disclaim the timeshare there are no other assets in the estate for the timeshare to go after.

Some may say, but the owner committed fraud... ok, perhaps. Given how underhanded many timeshares are I say, ok... so what? But it seems to me that the HOA's only remedy is to sue the owner for fraud, but he is dead and his estate has no assets to go after.

 

[youbet]

So what I'm getting from all this is that if someone who was impoverished and owned a timeshare died and all heirs disclaimed it that the HOA can go after the estate

Time share managers are not dumb people. And they like to run their businesses at a profit. I wonder if it is really profitable for them to chase estates to pay perpetual fees after the demise of the TS owner? Can they do that at a low enough cost that it is a profitable endeavor? If so, I'd sure like to know how much it happens.

If there really isn't anything or very much to go after, would they spend much time and/or money doing so?

I didn't want to make this a major time consumer for myself this morning, but a quick Google on "estates and timeshares" didn't come up with much. And I'm not interested in hypothetical and/or anecdotal examples as they really mean nothing. But are we actually talking about something that occurs other than rarely?

 

[Rianne]

Say someone is elderly and has a timeshare that is burdensome and none of their heirs want it. Transfer all your property other than the timeshare to a living trust so the only thing that you personally own is the timeshare. Then when you die the only asset in probate is the timeshare... if all heirs disclaim the timeshare there are no other assets in the estate for the timeshare to go after.

Some may say, but the owner committed fraud... ok, perhaps. Given how underhanded many timeshares are I say, ok... so what? But it seems to me that the HOA's only remedy is to sue the owner for fraud, but he is dead and his estate has no assets to go after.

Oh gosh...that is the only way to get out of a TS contract other than selling it?? I know from using my DB's over the years, some properties are in bad disrepair. The online descriptions can be bold faced lies. I went to a timeshare in South Padre Island to check it out for my DB in case he wanted to go there. It was terrible in so many ways. The description and pictures online were in fact lies. Can't one pursue false advertising or trash the timeshare on social media? I guess once you've closed on a house, there's no way out other than a lawsuit. Maybe there are enough people satisfies with their timeshare.

 

[Sunset]

Oh gosh...that is the only way to get out of a TS contract other than selling it?? I know from using my DB's over the years, some properties are in bad disrepair. The online descriptions can be bold faced lies. I went to a timeshare in South Padre Island to check it out for my DB in case he wanted to go there. It was terrible in so many ways. The description and pictures online were in fact lies. Can't one pursue false advertising or trash the timeshare on social media? I guess once you've closed on a house, there's no way out other than a lawsuit. Maybe there are enough people satisfies with their timeshare.

It's so difficult for many TS that the common method is to sell it for $1 or give it away to some other sucker.
If you check ebay you can see 294 for sale for less than $1.00

Some timeshares do have value, and if a person uses it every year, then they can get value out of it.

 

[yakers]

I have heard of one approach that may work, ‘sell’ for $1 or less to a homeless person with no obvious assets; let TS foreclose or whatever.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

I have heard of one approach that may work, ‘sell’ for $1 or less to a homeless person with no obvious assets; let TS foreclose or whatever.

Great idea, and include a bus ticket to the vacation destination in the deal!

 

[njhowie]

I have heard of one approach that may work, ‘sell’ for $1 or less to a homeless person with no obvious assets; let TS foreclose or whatever.

Sure, good luck getting that through a closing process.

What will the homeless person put as their address for where to send title and documents and be on file with the timeshare and county?

You might want to get familiar with the term "fraudulent conveyance".

 

[pb4uski]

Yes, but is the fraudulent conveyance where the sponsor duped the unsupecting customer into buying the timeshare or when the dissatisfied customer sold it to the homeless person in desparation to get out from under the onerous fees? Do two wrongs make a right?

 

[SecondCor521]

I have heard of one approach that may work, ‘sell’ for $1 or less to a homeless person with no obvious assets; let TS foreclose or whatever.

Interesting idea that I had not heard of.

In my Dad's TS contract there was a clause that the TS company reserved the right to approve of the sale. I think this clause is there to prevent Viking ship transfers, but don't know if they would use it to prevent this idea as well.

 

[njhowie]

Yes, but is the fraudulent conveyance where the sponsor duped the unsupecting customer into buying the timeshare or when the dissatisfied customer sold it to the homeless person in desparation to get out from under the onerous fees? Do two wrongs make a right?

Unsuspecting customer? Does anyone go to a timeshare presentation not knowing what they are there for? How exactly does the sponsor dupe the customer? The buyer also has a week after signing to back out of the purchase for any reason or no reason at all.

In the case of the homeless person, the seller obviously knows what's being done and the reason for doing it - specifically meeting the definition of fraudulent conveyance.

It's terrible if you (or someone you know) purchased a timeshare that either you didn't like, or got something different than what you thought you'd get. However, you had plenty of opportunity to just say no - did you not?

 

[ERD50]

I don't know about the legalities, but if the Time Share operator really is not interested in getting the property back for free, it speaks volumes. Even they see it as negative worth!

-ERD50

 

[njhowie]

In my Dad's TS contract there was a clause that the TS company reserved the right to approve of the sale.

Was it the right to approve the sale or "right of first refusal" - which is different (and very common, whether exercised or not), in that it allows the timeshare operator to refuse to allow your agreement to sell to your buyer to go through, but that the timeshare operator will step in and buy from you at your agreed upon contract price.

 

[aja8888]

I don't know about the legalities, but if the Time Share operator really is not interested in getting the property back for free, it speaks volumes. Even they see it as negative worth!

-ERD50

They would have to pay their own annual maintenance fees if they took it back!

 

[pb4uski]

Unsuspecting customer? Does anyone go to a timeshare presentation not knowing what they are there for? How exactly does the sponsor dupe the customer? The buyer also has a week after signing to back out of the purchase for any reason or no reason at all.

In the case of the homeless person, the seller obviously knows what's being done and the reason for doing it - specifically meeting the definition of fraudulent conveyance.

It's terrible if you (or someone you know) purchased a timeshare that either you didn't like, or got something different than what you thought you'd get. However, you had plenty of opportunity to just say no - did you not?

The timeshare industry is well-known for high-pressure sales tactics often to people who are unknowing of how time shares work, often can't really afford them and are unaware of what a financial drag that they often become. Sponsors often make dubious claims as part of their high-pressure tactics. It's foolish to think that these timeshare sales are on the up-and-up.

Look at the OP... paying $4,128 in annual fees for a timeshare that originally cost $20k. OP didn't say how many nights he has but even if he has 3 weeks that's ~$200/night and if he has 2 weeks that's $300/night.

 

[njhowie]

The timeshare industry is well-known for high-pressure sales tactics often to people who are unknowing of how time shares work, often can't really afford them and are unaware of what a financial drag that they often become. Sponsors often make dubious claims as part of their high-pressure tactics. It's foolish to think that these timeshare sales are on the up-and-up.

Look at the OP... paying $4,128 in annual fees for a timeshare that originally cost $20k. OP didn't say how many nights he has but even if he has 3 weeks that's ~$200/night and if he has 2 weeks that's $300/night.

We've all seen the stories, you really aren't presenting anything which is unknown. The world we live in is buyer beware. A salesman is not there to determine the suitability of any product or service for you. He/she is there to sell you something. By you going to the seller, you are obviously there as a potential buyer. If you are unable to control yourself and understand your own finances, what you can or cannot afford, why is that anyone's responsibility other than your own? Again, who goes to a timeshare presentation not knowing what they are there for? As far as I remember, every one of them makes you sign a disclosure form that you understand that your are there for the sale of timeshares, and that you represent you have a job and/or income above a certain amount. And once again, there is the week or so that you get where you can unilaterally back out and cancel the entire purchase.

The OP has not been fully clear - I seriously doubt that annual fees are $4128 in his case, he likely financed his purchase to some extent, likely at an interest rate well above market rates, and that annual amount is likely the all-in amount with his financing and annual fees.

When DW and I were first married and we were visiting Disney, we went to a timeshare presentation because they were giving free park tickets if you sat through the 90 minute presentation. It was a hard sell. But we pleasantly smiled, played devil's advocate, and at some point it was clear to our assigned guide we just wanted the park tickets. After the tour, when we sat down to talk turkey, he put the papers in front of us which indicated financing at 17% and I couldn't stop laughing. All the while they were ringing some stupid bell every time there was another (supposed) sale.

For years the experience had us so turned off on timeshares. And then on one visit back, I woke up early one morning and went to the Disney sales office - as it was just a short walk from where we were. It was like another world. The meeting lasted maybe 20 minutes. The guide said no pressure, here's what we're offering, here's the prices, if you like it wonderful, if not, not a problem. Maybe a month later I called back, gave the guide our AMEX number and put the entire purchase on the card. That was 20 years ago, and DW and I always wished that we had gone to Disney a few years earlier instead of that other one (now owned by Sheraton/Marriott) which turned us off. The sales guide who sold us the membership 20 years ago is still there, when we visit he routinely leaves us a voicemail. Nice guy. As I mentioned on an earlier post - we can sell the Disney timeshare today for double what we paid. However, Disney has delivered everything they promised and more. No way we would give it up. It's paid for itself many times over. So again, not all timeshares are the same or necessarily bad.

 

[SecondCor521]

Was it the right to approve the sale or "right of first refusal" - which is different (and very common, whether exercised or not), in that it allows the timeshare operator to refuse to allow your agreement to sell to your buyer to go through, but that the timeshare operator will step in and buy from you at your agreed upon contract price.

Good clarifying question. It was indeed the right to approve (or reject) the sale and not the right of first refusal.

 

[Sunset]

Good clarifying question. It was indeed the right to approve (or reject) the sale and not the right of first refusal.

Wow, so you get to buy something, and are not free to sell it to whomever you want.

And it's not even restricted by a "fair" gov't rule, but by some arbitrary TS/resort company.

 

[Vacation4us]

In my experience people that don’t invest the time to understand what they purchased are usually dissatisfied. Period. Buyer be ware.

Not here to convert anyone but it’s comical how many give advice on a subject they know zero about. Timeshares are just bad is the consensus,ok fine, but so is most of the information given as fact in this thread.

Timeshare companies do protect themselves by not allowing a transfer of a deed to a “ Viking Ship”. 99% of timeshares bought from a developer are worthless or worth pennies on the dollar. The exception, noted above is Disney . Why? Because Disney fans are crazy about all things Disney. Something I personally don’t understand.

I pay about 4K in fees a year, I can afford it. It gives me 5 weeks a year in vacation in much nicer and larger accommodations than a hotel room. As my user name implies vacations are a major priority in my life.

Timeshares are not for everyone but I get great value from mine and I didn’t pay developer prices. Bought after much research and I will have zero problem giving them away When I get too old to travel.